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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 12:30:30 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1079
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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quote:
We simply have to ask.. does the Lord grade on the curve.. is our salvation based on some measure of effort.. Those who think so have absolutely no measure by which anyone would know when they are righteous and when they are not.. Their only barometer is outward behavior. So they lecture others about being wrong but provide no measurable way to determine if one will "be saved" at death.. they can only hope their life of works, regardless of the motivation for them some how tips the scale.. where is the center point of acting righteous and acting unrighteous.
If I may I want to examine the above quote because if runs over with the engalled bitter milk of misconception. It is not just that the OSAS proponant doesn't not understand any one of the variant positions to the contrary (there are a couple whose theological path crosses on this point but not on others), it is the very conceptualization of the soteriological economy that is flawed.
This flaw resolves itself in their godspeak to the dew of "works" and "measure". Both of these are tracable back to an essentially medieval forensic mindset...utterly Anshelmian.
So lets examine the implicit beliefs of the above arguement and its logic:
"Does the Lord Grade on a Curve?" Here the assumption is that salvation can be calulated in some kind of accounting unit. For the purposes of the discussion thus far it is irrelevant how those units are caculated or who is responsible for them. From the OSAS perspective where Jesus did it all and man nothing...it is still like a ledger that is balanced, a set of salvic indices ticked off, click click, click, like the beads of an abacus. Salvation is compete and assured when all the beads are ticked over. Further these beads are equated with "good deeds". The ostensibly good man will never on his own tick over enough good deeds to count for salvation, since the standard is so absolute and so impossibley high. Christ however lived that impossibely good life in our place and then gives us the benefit of it....letting all the beads clack to the "saved" side of the divine abacus.
But back to the question itself, what about that curve? Actually there is a sense in which we do see Christ teaching that God does deal with us proportionately as we deal with others and with His revelation: Hence we have parables about harvests of 30/60/100 fold, about invested and buried talents, about measure in kind. We also have teaching in the Scriptures both of variance in reward and in condemnation. So is there indeed some unit of salvation some bead sliding upon the rods of divine Justice? Yes, there is one bead it seems. The bead is our brother. Our salvation insofar as it is measured and accounted is done so not in terms of numbers of inherently righteous deeds and thought, but in the single incarnate catagory of our brother. In the parable of the ungrateful servant we see the many bead falacy of forensic soteriology exposed. The servant owed a huge monetary debt (indexible units of salvation) which was forgiven Him...initially. In OSAS terms he is now "saved". He has been forgiven his forensic debt. Yet this servant refuses to extend the same courtesy to his fellow servant who owed him, and became unto him a tormentor (an accusing devil if you will), having him cast in prison until that debt was paid. Upon learning of this the King in anger rescinded the forgiveness of the debt and had that ungrateful servant cast into prison himself. So here what was the actual measure of "salvation", the forgiven debt or the measure in kind to one's brother? It is of course the latter, and it is this latter conceptualization that serves as the entire premise upon which Christ expounded his great soteriological summary, the Beattitudes: to the merciful He will show Himself merciful. Our measure is His measure. Salvation then is shown not to be bank statement derived from a set of balanced books but an emmulation of character. Being perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, shining on the just and the unjust without respect of persons. Christ said He did what the Father did and He calls us to do as He did.
When the measure of our doing is in this deed and that deed and the other deed as salvically exchangible units in an of themselves we have erred back into the counting house and to law keeping. When each deed is an act of loving emmulation, the disciple following His Master, then salvation has come to our house, for in them we show ourselves to be true disciples of our Master, and sons of our Father. Salvation then is properly understood as a restored ontology not a settled debit of deeds. The coin of heaven is not brownie points or merit. It is mercy and loving kindness. Merit and points can only be gathered. Mercy and Loving kindness can only be given away freely.
Moving on. The next significant part of the quote, "...no measure by which anyone would know when they are righteous and when they are not.. Their only barometer is outward behavior"
This is naked lusting after the law. Again we have a concept of righteousness measured in deeds as deeds and we have barometers of (take note) outward behavior to keep account of the weight of our righteousness or of another's. We also see the inherint moralistic busibodiness of this way of thinking. It oozes with the desire to judge. I want to know if I'm righteous. I want to know all the dos and all the don'ts. I want to measure my neighbor's righteousness. We are right back in the garden here with the desire to know good and evil in accordance with our own will and intellection. There is no humility in this desire for a sure measure at all. It is only a heartbeat and the slip of a lip away from "Lord I thank thee that I pray three times a day, tithe all the herbs on my spice rack, and am not as this groveling sinner and publican here beside me."
This is not even the kind a question a true disciple should ever ask...how can I measure mine or another's righteousness. The answer is simple. It stares at us from Scripture and echoes throughout the centuries of Christian experience: "But the publican dared not lift his eyes to heaven" "and when you have done all say 'I your unprofitable servant have only done...'" "...of sinners, of whom I am chief" "reckon yourself as dust and ashes over which no man is forbidden to walk" "Live in Hell but do not despair" "All will be saved, but I alone will be condemned." "Wherever, Thy love places me, O Lord". There is no saint who ever walked this earth that did not understand in heart of hearts that He was the least of all men and the greatest of all sinners. And all judgements of his salvation or that of His brother he left solely with his master, the Lord, the righteous Judge of Heaven and Earth.
"they ... provide no measurable way to determine if one will "be saved" at death.."
Again we see the itch to keep accounts...a measurable way. And we see a new twist "saved" at death....and I thought they were supposed to have been "saved" way back when they first said that sinner's prayer. But that's playing gotcha, so lets move on. "Saved at death" strikes me as sad commentary on the forensic mindset. Saved from what...from Hell, from God? If salvation can be summed up as a settled account book in our favor so that we are not cast into debtors prison (hell), what an impotent thing it is. What has become of salvation as restored ontology? In this model it is absent at worst and grossly impoverished at best, a tack on thing. This is a dead end salvation (my debt is settled). It is not a salvation of transformation and transfiguration but of the resolution of ledgers and the being sure you got yours.
Lets revisit our parable King and another of his unrightous servants, the unjust steward. Now he didn't owe money to the king, he had simply been an incompetant steward of what was entrusted to him, and he was about to get the boot...to be cast out (dare we say lose his salvation). But what did he do, while still steward he doctored all the king's accounts to say that the king's debtors owed much less than they did in the hopes that those so benefited would take care of him once he was dismissed. Yet to his surprise when the king found out He was pleased with the steward and commended him. What was going on? Was the king being machivellian and appreciating mere feral shrewdness? Was he approving fraud and embezzlement? Might I suggest the steward in his despiration stumbled upon the very thing that pleased the King...mercy. He discovered that being mercificul was the stewardship the king desired...a steward of his mercy. It is the same measure by which the ungrateful servant was meaured. The debt was incidental, what was important to the King was that his servants be like Him. Hence a salvation established and experienced ontologically and theraputically not forensically.
"they can only hope their life of works, regardless of the motivation for them somehow tips the scale"
Here we clearly see the conceptualization of works forensically as a means of merit, a measure of some unit of salvation. It is even weighted upon a scale. The abacus keeps on clicking and clicking and clicking. And because they only conceptualize works in terms of forensic debt they are obliveous to the fact that those who do not share their forensic premises do not see works as any kind of vehichle for earning salvation. Rather they see them as the means given them to emulated their master, to be imitators of Christ and so doing becoming active partakers of salvation...being saved, by living in comunnion with and doing the will of Christ the Lord who called them and gave Himself for them, and sent them forth to be light and salt in the world...two things which are only valuable as they give themselves away...like mercy and loving kindness.
Deeds in this schema earn nothing but are the therapy of heaven by which health (salvation) is restored. And what is that salvation...to be found in the fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ. To be like Him. We don't get that way by fidgeting with scales and flicking beads, but by following and beholding Him with singleness of eye and heart. Deeds are not then the means by which we earn salvation, but by which salvation...Christ in us, the hope of Glory, is revealed.
And certainties are not our business. Ours is to follow and t obey. The Lord's Judgements are His own. We hope but we do not presume. This is not wishful thinking, or a matter of flittery anxiety, this is simple and quiet surrender to "Thy will be done."
< Message edited by unworthyseraphim -- 3/15/2006 12:42:04 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 12:43:40 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 156
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
[Rileykins,
Does he know what happened to the horse after he died? Much less if that horse was worthless or not. Is he the judge of whether people who think differently than him have a worthless religion? Is he personally able to judge if others are "saved" or not? This is the kind of presumptuous confidence that OSAS provides. I don't need it, I'll let God be the judge.
Was Paul exhibiting the kind of presumptuous confidence that OSAS provides and that you say you have no need of, when he, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit writes...
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2Cor.
rileykins
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 12:49:04 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
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johnkw,
quote:
You said, "No it does not." How not? There are only 2 theoretical ways to be righteous. Either obey the whole law perfectly (which Christ and no one else did), or become righteous by faith. v. 21: "a righteousness from God Apart from the law" + v 22: "the righteousness of God by faith" = faith alone. How could it be anything else? There are no other alternatives. The word 'monon' doesn't have to be in there. There are more, but lets look at the two you mention.
Christ's accomplished the first. Perfectly sinlessly fulfilled the law. This is usually called the work of Christ on the Cross. The work by which He redeemed, justified, reconciled, made righteous mankind. Or to leave the big words, to put man back into a correct relationship with God.
A believer acquires this righteousness by faith. That is an "alone" faith. But it is a faith that simply and only justifies a man. God already did all the justifiying. We just lay claim to it because we cannot do it. We could not restore ourselves to life, nor satisfy the punishment for our sins. Christ did all of it.
However, we have not yet gotten to the salvation of man, or the salvation of our souls which is through faith. The same faith that ONLY justified us, is also the faith through which God works to save us. Faith alone is only justified faith. If we fail to act on that faith, even that faith is useless. We are no longer justified either. No faith does not keep you justified.
Herein lies the great difficulty you have in understanding the scriptural view that has been held by the Church since the Apostles. OSAS is a very modern presupposition imposed on scripture that scripture itself cannot put forth any kind of support.
That is why propenents, and you included, keep on going back to Christ's Work on the Cross. As if the works we do in this life is going to change the work of Christ's accomplishment on the Cross. It has nothing to do with it, in the least.
It has to do with the whole issue of creation and the purpose of man. Man fulfilling the role, the meaning, the purpose of man in this created order. The fall and Christ's redemption from that fall is but an interlude, and interjection. It has no bearing on the God/man relationship if one looks at it correctly.
This is why the view totally abliterates the created purpose of God working and being in union with Adam. Adam was not held in his belief. Adam was free to either remain or reject God freely. This is the created order. This is man created in God's Image to have a relationship that is independent of each other. A relationship that has conditions and if not met, then God can and does met out judgment upon man who does not abide by His rules. We don't earn anything, we don't recieve any merits for this work. It is a condition, an obligation of our very existance.
It was so important to God, that God sent His Son to die for all of these condemned human beings who were on the road to destruction through Adam. Christ freed us from Adam. Placed us into a correct relationship, same as He had with Adam, free to act on his own will and desire.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 2:52:15 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
Not good enough. What I said is how the early Church understood it. If it was good enough for them, it is good enough for me. I am not going to add more to what God told them.
quote:
This sort of argument doesn't intimidate me. Who's trying to intimidate you?
quote:
I don't care what they thought if it goes against Scripture. That being said, you might be the one misinterpreting them. How do you know your interpretation is right and they are wrong? They spoke Greek, so I assume they understand the Greek NT better than us. It is their language. I think I will stick with someone who more importantly the Gospel was passed on to them by the Apostles, and 2nd they spoke Greek.
Don't get me wrong. I am extremely grateful for the great people of faith who passed on the Apostles' doctrine to us. But we have a lot of competent scholars today who are just as good at Greek as guys like Justin Martyr were, and I listen to them, and use my critical thinking ability along with the inner witness of the Holy Spirit (whom Jesus promised would teach us all things), to accept the good and reject the bad. Anyone could be wrong, and if I am God will show me, but I'm not content to sit back and say, "Well, the early church fathers interpreted Paul to mean that you could lose salvation, so I guess they're right." What if they added more to what God told Paul, or John? That's what I mean by not being intimidated. You say, it's good enough for Ignatius, it's good enough for me. I move that bar back to Paul, John, etc.
quote:
quote:
You said, "No it does not." How not? I have read every single passage you listed, and nowhere does it say "by faith ALONE". You're making stuff up. You're adding to the word of God written in the Holy Scripture.
Making stuff up! It's right there in front of you! I have added nothing.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 3:41:43 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1079
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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Just to bump around the obvious...how likely is it any modern scholar who knows Koine Greek in a modern academic setting would know the language better than an educated man of his time, who was also a person of profound holiness, for whom Koine was still a living language.
That sort of stretches credibility. I can't say its impossible...it is just so very unlikely.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 3:58:42 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1440
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
Don't get me wrong. I am extremely grateful for the great people of faith who passed on the Apostles' doctrine to us. But we have a lot of competent scholars today who are just as good at Greek as guys like Justin Martyr were I know a lot of people who have taken four years of Spanish or Italian. But when I hear them, they make many mistakes. And many of them forgot most of it. Imagine a Greek scholar who has no native speakers to correct him. So no, I don't believe they are competent enough.
And why are they called Greek scholars anyway? You would not call someone who took 4 years of Spanish a Spanish scholar. Most native Spanish speakers would laugh at that.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 3:58:52 PM
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hcspls
Posts: 5
Joined: 3/8/2006
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Hi Cassian, Iam hcspls, I read your post and responding to it. Are you saying at the end of your response, as you have received, Christ, so walk in him? For me that is exactly what I and the gracers are doing, We received him as the one and only way to salvation.
For he did it all and because of receiving we are saved. And I think you are agrreeing with this, except, that if we do not keep the faith we shall lose it. When a person receives total forgiveness , the slate clean, there are only three responses 1. Now I am goint ot live my life for you, watch my smoke God I will get you to respond to me, I will how can you not love me for what I am accomplishing for you. 2. Not accept and go on with your life, eat, drink, and be merry. 3. You can come to the end of the energy of your own flesh, quit trying to get God to respond to you by what you are doing, and start responding to him the creator. You see if I get God to respond to me by my actions, that would make God my creation, and him my responder. I would be God in that case. I 'd rather respond to him, thanking him so much, that I have not got time to sin, off an an adventure, enjoying the new abundant life that is by trusting the living God that supplies all my needs. All I ever needed to do was step out of adam and into Christ.
You see it was like this I had gone through life being beat up, with family death, alcohol, drugs, fights, scrapes, scares, people controlling me in my thinking, a slave. One day I was on the auction block, being sold I looked out into the audience and saw all types of landowners bidding on me, I was very worried, where was I going to go, what would happen to me, why am I here.
Then out of the back of all these land owners someone raised their hand higher than all the rest and bidded the highest price possible to buy me, I noticed all the landowners tried to put all their riches together to stop this one man from buying me, and they could not stop him. Oh boy now I was in fear tremendously. The man walked up and took the keys to my chains from the old owner, and unlocked them and said you are free now Go. I replied what, he said you are free. I said no this is a trick or something you just paid the highest price possible, I can't be free. He replied That is what I bought you for to set you free. I replied I can go anywhere I want to, do anything I want to. He said yes
I replied well sir where do you live. He replies just down the road. Well then can I go to your house and live with you. He rep;ied you have free choice, yes you are forever welcome. Will you ever sell me down the road, No my Friend I will never leave you nor forsake you, I love you. When you receive this kind of love how can you walk away, what can be your only response, forever saying thank you
Now when you do sin for paul talked about this, to confess yet not for forgiveness, for acknowledgement that you are not God, My grace is sufficient for thee is what paul was told and then he said he would glory in his iniquities, and would not br under mans judgement, he is only judged by one God himself. scriopture for each 2 corinthians 12 and 1 corinthians 4. I am in Christ it is final and he is in me. I have not been able to stop thanking him. I hope you all receive the same or have already. Have a beautiful day
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 7:45:37 PM
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gracewalk
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Hi hcspls,
Rom 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. ¶ Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.
Thanks for your post... I only have evening access so it's not practical to try to read a days worth of posting..
knowing we are:
accepted
forgiven
made perfect
clothed in Christ
justified
sanctified
and are commanded to enter His rest so he may complete His work in and through us is a marvalouse truth..
I tried to read a few post back but a few are trying to impress us with their eclisiastical vocabulary.. frankly I am not impressed.. neither is the Lord..IMO
What impresses me is how mightily you and rileykens and a few others seem to be able to capture a living Jesus in your lives. (supported by the word of God)... listening to a grad student redily quote his mentor at college demonstrates only that he is a great student of his teacher, not necessarily of the Truth.
It's a bit tireing reading what sounds more like notes from college than any kind of personal experience..
Anyway.. it was refreshing to read what Christ has and is doing in your life..
James 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? But He gives a greater grace. Therefore {it} says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
amen bro..
YBIC
_____________________________
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 8:13:56 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline
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hcspls,
quote:
For me that is exactly what I and the gracers are doing, We received him as the one and only way to salvation. So far you are correct. But we are free in Him as you point out latter in your analogy. Christ or God does not hold us captive. We are indeed free. But the things you are doing is not the result of salvation, nor the cause of salvation, it is salvation. It is the content of salvation. It is the very purpose of our existance and the reason we were created. God is not going to do what He created you to do. What others are confusing this with is the actual work of Christ on the Cross and it has nothing directly to do with it.
I will show this with some of your other comments.
quote:
For he did it all and because of receiving we are saved. And I think you are agrreeing with this, except, that if we do not keep the faith we shall lose it. I don't want to confuse you but one needs to take out the word received in your above sentence. Then we can talk about being already saved. And one cannot lose it either. The salvation to which this addressess is the saving of mankind from the fall. from death and sin. This is not speaking about our response. Christ did all the work of reconciling us. However, our personal salvation, what the Bible also refers to the salvation of our souls is a mutual, relational, union, communion, ongoing, ever growing journey during our lives. We are only able, or better phrase, enabled to do this walk because we are and have been already saved, by Christ.
quote:
For he did it all and because of receiving we are saved. And I think you are agrreeing with this, except, that if we do not keep the faith we shall lose it. Now, take the same phrase and use the word received, which now refers to a person who desires by faith to accept Christ and believes He is the Saviour of the world. This acceptance is by faith which only justifies man. We could not do the work of saving ourselves, only Christ could do it, so faith is the vehicle of how man enters into the union or communion with Christ. However, once entered, we are not saved, but being saved. We know are in Christ and we must live our lives by His guidance, rules, conditions. The greatest and foremost is faith. Everything else hinges on faith. If we do not love God, we have no faith. If we hate our neighbor, we also hate God and do not have faith. Thus we are saved THROUGH OUR FAITH not by our faith. It is the very works for which we, man, was created to do that saves our souls. It is the work that was created for us to do. It is salvation.
So man's walk is a free mutual relationship. God has given us His assurances that He will neither forsake us, will not change the gifts, will not revoke the gift. But these are God's promises to man form His side of the mutual agreement, covenant. Man also has obligations which is to maintain faith. If we do not, we are not being saved and if we remain unrepentant, unreconciled to God, we will not be saved in the end. We will not inherit the promise of eternal LIFE WITH CHRIST.
quote:
When a person receives total forgiveness , the slate clean, there are only three responses Actually, there is only one. Lord have mercy upon me, a sinner. We are never clean. We continually sin and need continual forgiveness.
If you are saying, as many do, that Christ forgives all sins on the Cross, that would indeed be great and all of mankind would indeed be saved. But that is not what happened on the Cross. Christ paid the penalty of our sins. The sins we would commit, will commit, He paid the penalty so that we could be forgiven, so that we could be reconciled to God, so that we could remain in Him. Sin separates man from God, even believers. That is why sinning willfully, disobediently, without repentance places one outside of Christ.
That is why all the text which mentions that those that believe keep His commandments. If we do not keep His commandments we do not have faith. If we do not have faith, we are not justified, as well as not being saved. We are outside of Christ. Only believers have faith. If we lose faith, we are no longer a believer, but an unbeliever.
All of your options are pointing to some aspect of man earning or doing something to be saved. Man has already been saved from the fall. That is the part that man does not have any control over or can effect it in any way. But the believing part, God does not, cannot act untill and unless man responds to Him. He first loved us, we respond to that love. He saved us, He offers Himself to us, but He cannot and will not force His will upon man. Man is free.
quote:
You see if I get God to respond to me by my actions, that would make God my creation, and him my responder. It is just the other way around as I have just pointed out. God calls all men to repentance. He lost no one, delivered all from the curse of Adam so that none would be destroyed and all could freely choose, or reject Him. But God is the initiator, but man responds. All men do respond, but not all respond positively.
quote:
All I ever needed to do was step out of adam and into Christ. That is great, but all human beings were placed outside of Adam by Christ. No one even needed to step out of Adam. It was an impossibility of man to do that. At one point you do not want man to do any work, yet in your explanation you have man actually working to step out of Adam which is impossible for man to do and Christ did it for you.
Your analogy of the slave and slave owner is almost correct but with a couple of very obvious flaws when it comes to the scripture comparison. For example:
quote:
Then out of the back of all these land owners someone raised their hand higher than all the rest and bidded the highest price possible to buy me, I noticed all the landowners tried to put all their riches together to stop this one man from buying me, and they could not stop him. yes, Christ did buy us. Paid a very steep ransom. But He paid it for all of those slaves. Every single one with you, not just you. No one could pay the very high price.
quote:
The man walked up and took the keys to my chains from the old owner, and unlocked them and said you are free now Go. I replied what, he said you are free. I said no this is a trick or something you just paid the highest price possible, I can't be free. He replied That is what I bought you for to set you free. I replied I can go anywhere I want to, do anything I want to. He said yes Christ did indeed pay the full price. Christ bought us from death which held us. He freed all of mankind from the curse of Adam. We, all men are now free. Free to choose where they will live. In my Fathers, buyers, house, or on my own. But we are free to choose. We can also leave but we also can come back as did the prodigal son.
quote:
No my Friend I will never leave you nor forsake you, I love you. When you receive this kind of love how can you walk away, what can be your only response, forever saying thank you God is not the one who does the forsaking, unless He lies. It is man who does the changing. Man leaves the relationship. Man is fickle, unfaithful. He can and does leave that abode to go it alone without Christ. The Bible gives us abundant warnings and exhortations to be very careful of always remaining IN Him.
quote:
and would not br under mans judgement, he is only judged by one God himself. This is a very true statement, but up to this point, I'm not sure you understand the implications.
As I stated just above, Christ redeemed us from the curse of Adam, which is a judgement against Adam for HIS sin, but we are being punished along with him, death and sin was the result. A result that could not be reversed except for Christ. Christ freed us so that we now come under the just judgement of Christ. Those that believe will be judged but not condemned, those that believe not are already condemned. No one is under the Adamic curse. No one will suffer eternally the judgement of Adam.
quote:
I am in Christ it is final and he is in me. Your being IN Christ is not final until your death, IF you have remained faithful. However, if not faithful, you are not IN Christ, not now, nor then, unless you repent and seek forgiveness and become reconciled to God once again.
That is your sole responsibility for which you were freed and for which you will stand in judgement.
Now, I have full assurance that God will not alter, remove, change the Gift. He offers it to all. It is I that is the moving agent. It is I that is free to change. It is I that cannot give my own assurance for where or what I might be ten years from now. I can only say where I am today. It is always and only at the present moment.
< Message edited by cassian -- 3/15/2006 8:20:44 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 8:57:26 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
johnkw,
quote:
I do not deny the responsibility of man. Eternal security doesn't, either. You have not shown any evidence for either yourself or eternal security.
Clarification, please? Did you mean to say that I have not shown any evidence that I myself do not deny the responsibility of man? Why would you assume that I deny man's responsibility? If this is what you're saying, you've presumed something on me that is quite unwarranted, and out of bounds. Do you mean to say that when I post something, I have to give my whole theologically airtight creedal statement? When I post, do I have to worry that I've made sure I've dotted the minor i's and crossed the minor t's? I would hope people give others the benefit of the doubt. This forum is supposed to be about helping people see truth better. Such statements don't fit this.
And besides, I have shown such evidence by some of the things I've written. Calm down.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2006 9:16:29 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1440
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
johnkw,
quote:
I do not deny the responsibility of man. Eternal security doesn't, either. You have not shown any evidence for either yourself or eternal security.
Clarification, please? Did you mean to say that I have not shown any evidence that I myself do not deny the responsibility of man? Why would you assume that I deny man's responsibility? You can't have it both way. You can't believe in eternal security and at the same time in man's responsibility. The two are contradictory.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 12:44:32 AM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline
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johnkw,
quote:
Clarification, please? Did you mean to say that I have not shown any evidence that I myself do not deny the responsibility of man? Why would you assume that I deny man's responsibility? Why would one need to assume. That is the precise doctrine you are explaining. You are opposing the very concept of man's responsibility in the salvation of one's soul.
Man's responsibility and OSAS are contradictory.
If you think that you are showing that man has a responsibility, then obviously, you also have a much different understanding of responsibility.
quote:
And besides, I have shown such evidence by some of the things I've written. Calm down. Could you elaborate. I surely have missed it. I had not realized that you changed your position regarding OSAS.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 12:23:07 PM
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hcspls
Posts: 5
Joined: 3/8/2006
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Hey Cassian. Do you strain out gnats often? The over all picture is who I am in Christ. You are sticking to the fact that you believe w/o further forgiveness, you are one minute saved then the next minute you are out. And if you are really good at not sinning, it might be a couple of days, before you have to repent. Then as you got two more commandments under your belt, you head on to the others trying to attain what Christ already attained. Would that be God hood for you if you ever attain 316 commandments.
let alone ten. Kind of like holding ten corks under the water at the same time. Can you accomplish this with your hands, you do really good you get nine down, going for the tenth and three pop back up behind you. Since you seem to believe you can eventually attain all the commandments after receiving Christ, by your own strength, not by Christs' strength, you go and enjoy. For me it is who I am a child of the living God forever. I am crucified, never the less I live, For God lives for me, eats for me, died for me, took all sins I have or ever will commit away for me. So it is not I that lives it is Christ. And he loves you unconditionally. How much more shall the blood of Christ , who through the eternal spirit offered himself w/o spot to God, purge your concience from dead works to the living God?
Now I have ? for you. Go into the new testament after the death of Christ, where the new covenant has been put into effect ( hebrews 9:15-17. ) Show me scripture where Paul, James, peter, Jude, or John, or any other scripture, after the death of Christ, wher it says to ask for ongoing forgivenss? If you use 1 john 1: 9, I have already agreed, that christ came in the flesh and I am not a nostic, as well I have already agreed that I have a sin nature, and have received the forgiveness that Christ provided. I know as estute as you are, you probably know that the original translation was and should have been, and he's just to have already forgiven you your sins.
So give me scripture that supports on going forgiveness w/o the shedding of any more blood. Oh one other place that even hints of ongoing forgiveness, where it says your past sins are forgiven, well how soon is it past?
I am not interested in straining out gnats, I am only interested in others receiving the life from Christ that he came to give. I hope you have received this wonderful life. Love in Christ forever, HCSPLS.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 1:16:49 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline
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hcspls,
From your post there is really nothing to reply to that pertains to the subject at hand.
I would suggest that you read a very good analysis of the issue from Uworthyseraphim in Post #176.
Your entire post does not even address the covenantal relationship that we have with Christ. You are constantly putting the saving of one's soul into the Work of Christ or the saving of mankind. That is the only Work Christ performed for us.
If you really want to hold to the view as you describe it, then you should also look at the position of a Universalist. They also believe that all of mankind was saved individually as well. To actually believe that Christ forgave all the sins of the world, both past, present and future at the time of His death on the Cross would be marvelous indeed. If so, then what are we actually speaking about. Everyone is saved no matter what we do, no one is ever going to be condenmed as no one has any sins that are not already forgiven. Even unbelief is forgiven by your definition and all unbelievers are saved.
I must presume that you do not believe or accept the Lord's prayer as having any meaning or effect.
I think you should check your theology once again.
All of the following clearly indicates that one of the most essential requirements of believing and remaining in Christ and respective of the OT, with God is repentance, confession, as we see in Ps 32:5; Ps 51:2, Neh 9:2; Num 11:2; Prov 28:13; James 5:16; I John 1:9.
Further, such verses as John 16:8, John 20:23, Matt 16:19, Matt 18:18, Acts 2:38 are all quite worthless statements if all of the sins of the world were forgiven on the Cross.
There are many more but quite clearly you have a large contradiction in your theology regarding the Work of Christ on the Cross.
quote:
I am only interested in others receiving the life from Christ that he came to give. This might be indicative of your misunderstanding regarding Christ. Christ gave life to all. That was His primary work. He gave life so that we could live IN Him. So you need not worry about others receiving life. We all received life. Christ did not lose a single human being. You don't have anything to do with it, including yourself.
Both you and I have this life as does every other soul that ever lived and will live.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 3:08:31 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 156
Joined: 4/12/2005
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The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
When Christ died for your sin's 2,000 or so years ago, how many of your sins were yet future?
rileykins
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 3:20:02 PM
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hcspls
Posts: 5
Joined: 3/8/2006
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Cassian Thank you for replying. I am not going to argue with you. you believe that all were saved at the cross and it is up to us to keep it fine. I believe that all sins were taken away at the cross, Life was not yet given. First God dealt with the disease that caused death, Christ on the cross. Sin was this disease and unfortunately this disease exists in our world still. Yet from Gods' vantage point, he sent the Holy spirit to nudge at peoples spirit for each to individuallly ask for Christs' life to live in and through them, receiving that the sins in Gods' eyes have been taken away, So you can have a life called eternal how else would it be eternal.
[edited by moderator to remove unattributed copyrighted material]
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 3/17/2006 10:32:37 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 3:31:28 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 156
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Only those who have come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ receive life, until then we are all dead in our sins and trespasses.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
I don't know how many times I have to keep posting this verse, oh well, here it is again...
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Through faith, did you not get that. We are not talking about Universalism. The gift of salvation (by grace) is received through faith. Only those who have heard the gospel of the grace of God, have believed it and have trusted in Christ alone for forgiveness of sins and eternal life are saved. This gift (eternal life) is received, through faith.
And here is that other verse...
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13
You use a lot of verses from the gospels and seem to want to ignore Paul. I understand why, so here are a couple from John 10.... What do you do with this ?
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Why do I keep posting that verse from Ephesians? Becuase it tells me that salvation is a gift and not something I have to work for. Now if salvation was something I had to obtain by my works, then I can see where If I didn't keep up the works performance I could lose it. But it's a gift and it's obtained not by works of righteousness which I have done, but through faith and faith alone in what Christ did. And that's why I can never lose my salvation.
rileykins
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 3:56:46 PM
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GraceBro
Posts: 295
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
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Great stuff riley, hcs & gracewalk...
Christ died on the Cross to pay the penalty for the sins of mankind. He rose from the dead to offer the life of God, lost when Adam sinned, to all who believe. Because of the eternal consequences of the cross, this life cannot be lost again. That is why it is called eternal life. And now the indwelling Holy Spirit lives out the christian life in and through every believer teaching us to say no to sinful behavior, live upstanding lives and producing the works of righteousness prepared for us before the creation of the world.
Pretty simple... Thanks for the encouragement!
YBIC
_____________________________
www.livinggodministries.net
http://96toLife.blogspot.com
360.yahoo.com/idog96
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 7:59:00 PM
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gracewalk
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Gracebro..
And thanks for yours..
YBIC
_____________________________
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2006 8:40:45 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline
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hcspls,
quote:
Thank you for replying. I am not going to argue with you. It is not an argument. It is an explanation. An explanation that you have not followed up with answers to the questions and statements I posed.
I will do the same with your response this time not only to show that we differ, but that I am looking for justification for such a view when scripture is speaking against it.
quote:
you believe that all were saved at the cross and it is up to us to keep it fine. Quite the contrary. Your one sentence is actually speaking about two very distinct parts of the plan of salvation. That is either the misunderstanding on your part, or the inability to follow the presentation.
quote:
I believe that all sins were taken away at the cross, Life was not yet given. I know that is what you believe, but you have not shown any scripture that actually says that. To put a fine point on it, I don't believe life was given on the cross either. It was actually given immediately upon His resurrection. When Christ arose from the dead, all men recieved the ability to be raised from the dead, physically. Christ overcame the primary problem, the disease of mankind, DEATH. Christ imparted life through His Incarnation and resurrection. It is the only reason that He of necessity needed to become man, to redeem mankind. He restored our human natures from the curse of Adam.
quote:
First God dealt with the disease that caused death, Christ on the cross By Biblical definition, the disease is death. Death is our primary problem. We sin because we are dead. We became mortal upon the sin of Adam through the judgment against the sin he commit | | |
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