RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread

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dyluck -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/26/2008 9:21:40 PM)
LOL Great verses! Well I think your definition of Conversion is pretty much regeneration. A regenerated man repents and turns away from his "immoral" ways. I don't believe a true "conversion" happens when someone simply gives their life to the lord via utterance of the mouth. I believe someone is truly converted when they show mourning over their sin and repent. The verse in James 5:19-20 in different translation "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." How can you turn a sinner from the error of his way? By actioning it. A sinner will continue to be a sinner if he continues to sin with no sign of repentance or regeneration for that matter. do you agree?

greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/26/2008 11:08:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Him4all Greatdivide46, Oh NO...now you're 'not answering' another question. Post 3822 quote: A while back you said you thought I was a 'Christian'...wanna back out? Having heard my testimony, are you wanting to retract??? Sorry, I thought you were addressing that question to someone else since I don't recall ever saying that I thought you were a Christian. Nevertheless, I'm sure you are and I see no reason in your testimony to think that you're not.

Him4all -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/27/2008 12:57:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dyluck LOL Great verses! Well I think your definition of Conversion is pretty much regeneration. A regenerated man repents and turns away from his "immoral" ways. My experience was, I came to Jesus as my saivor first. I was repentant for my sins, but I didn't quit doing every one of them just because I'd accepted Jesus as my Savior. I think 'regeneration' is the 'born from above' salvation of my spirit. And it's after being 'born again' that I began working out the progressive salvation of my soul (putting on the mind of Christ or submitting to His Lordship)...that I might bodily walk in newness of life. quote: I don't believe a true "conversion" happens when someone simply gives their life to the lord via utterance of the mouth. I agree. quote: I believe someone is truly converted when they show mourning over their sin and repent. I don't know if "mourning" is necessary personally. I know when I first got born again and started following Jesus, people would 'wail' about how sorry they were for their sins before 'coming to Jesus'. But I honestly had to admit that I didn't feel that same 'remorse' that they emotionally expressed. I started thinking something was wrong with me, because as I thought back on my life...I had to admit that I still had fond memories of smoking dope and having sex. But I wasn't doing those things anymore. And as I sought God for an answer I felt like what the Spirit spoke to my heart was this: Repentance means to change your mind concerning something...and I had. Those sins were leading to 'death' in my life and I wanted 'life' and life abundant...so I quit them. quote: The verse in James 5:19-20 in different translation "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." How can you turn a sinner from the error of his way? By actioning it. A sinner will continue to be a sinner if he continues to sin with no sign of repentance or regeneration for that matter. do you agree? I'm not sure if I understand what you're asking me here. Could you ask again and reword it a bit? DR

dyluck -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/27/2008 3:43:01 PM)
Hey H4A, About mourning: 2 Cor 7:10-11 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. Actually mourning is one of the B-Attitudes. Matthew 5:4 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted Also yes, we should be morning constanstly over our sin. re-affirmed here: Luke 6:21 Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. James 4:7-9 7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. Ezra 10:1 The People's Confession of Sin 1 While Ezra was praying and confessing, weeping and throwing himself down before the house of God, a large crowd of Israelites—men, women and children—gathered around him. They too wept bitterly. If you agree confession is ongoing, then so should mourning. quote: I'm not sure if I understand what you're asking me here. Could you ask again and reword it a bit? I just doin't think you used that verse in the right context. I think this verse is very profound for prodjical sons and it dabbles a bit in the need to turn from sin.

Him4all -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/27/2008 6:37:54 PM)
Dyluck, Good verses which really give the validity to your mourning point. Not all of them IMO but several were pretty obvious. I concede. [;)] quote: I just doin't think you used that verse in the right context. I think this verse is very profound for prodjical sons and it dabbles a bit in the need to turn from sin. I guess I wouldn't have considered them prodigals as much as I would have considered them the sons that were still at home with the father...but weren't perfect. I think prodigals are those who are dead to the Father and needing to be born again. [8\|] DR

kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/28/2008 1:59:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rwe2156 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman No, you are simply describing a non-omniscient god, Why would he be non-omniscient? To change one's mind requires a correction, the addition or improvement of knowledge. The state of mind before the change would have been deficient, ignorant, imperfect. Therefore, to say that God can change His mind is to assail His perfection. God does not learn; He knows everything perfectly. quote: quote: one who lacks knowledge, Not true. Oh, it's true alright - see above. quote: quote: That is not the God described in the Bible. The God of the Bible interacts with his creation. That's true; but, not pertinent to this discussion since no one has claimed otherwise. quote: quote: God does not save according to your will. I dont' believe he does. Why do you say this. Because you insist that when you change your will and repent God saves you. Therefore, God saves according to your will, rather, than what He declares He actually does do - predestine those He has chosen. quote: quote: He saves according to His will and the plan He put into place "before the foundation of the world". Yes. Whosoever believes in him, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord and he waits patiently for men to repent, not wanting any to perish. Yep, and whosoever believes in Him, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be those He has chosen. It will be those to whom He has given the gifts of faith and repentence. It will be those He has predestined, elected, effectually called, regenerated and justified. That is who the "whosoever" is.

kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/28/2008 2:01:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman The word "Lord" alone may not be an indication of regeneration; but that coupled with the rest of Paul's words and actions is. You may be correct. However, I just can't see praying, refusing to eat, and waiting around to see what's going to happen for three days as the actions of someone who has just been regenerated. Typically someone who is regenerated rejoices. At least everyone I've seen regenerated did that. Not a single one of them immediately went into prayer and fasting, waiting to see what would happen next. Paul's "waiting around" was done in obedience to the Lord Jesus "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." In addition, Paul was being obedient to the vision he had received from God. He was to wait for the visit from Ananias - to receive his sight. Paul actions were perfectly consistent with one who has been regenerated. Besides, it is not necessarily typical that one rejoices when he has been regenerated. Regeneration is a moment in time and a moment of which man is typically not aware.

kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/28/2008 2:25:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dyluck Do you guys think we are saved at the point of conversion or do you think confidence/security comes when we are truly regenerated? I don't think we all have the same understanding of certain words. We are regenerated when the Holy Spirit indwells - we are "born from above" (John 3). In regeneration, we receive a new spirit, one which is spiritually eternally alive in Christ. This is totally the work of God and we have absolutely no participation in it. As a result, God opens our eyes, ears and heart to the Gospel, iow, He gives us saving faith, repentence and we become converted/saved. And here we participate as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling(Phil 2:12). IOW, now we work to show ourselves obedient to God, to do all things which accompany salvation.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/28/2008 5:34:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Paul's "waiting around" was done in obedience to the Lord Jesus "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." In addition, Paul was being obedient to the vision he had received from God. He was to wait for the visit from Ananias - to receive his sight. Paul actions were perfectly consistent with one who has been regenerated. Besides, it is not necessarily typical that one rejoices when he has been regenerated. Regeneration is a moment in time and a moment of which man is typically not aware. Paul's waiting to see what would happen may have been done in obedience, but he was still waiting around to see what would happen next. And while he was waiting he was fasting and praying, because he didn't know what was going to happen next, other than regaining his physical sight. I just can't see that as the typical reaction of someone who has just been saved. If that is the typical reaction, though, I guess I must by atypical because I sure know exactly at what point in time my regeneration took place. And I didn't spend three days fasting and praying, either, I can tell you that. I was rejoicing and telling everyone I could how great God is!!

rwe2156 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/28/2008 7:50:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Because you insist that when you change your will and repent God saves you. Therefore, God saves according to your will, rather, than what He declares He actually does do - predestine those He has chosen. I believe repentance and faith are prerequisites. I believe the biblical order of salvation is Repent/Believe, THEN Receive. I'm not telling God to save me. No more than by repenting I can forgive myself. Man does play a part in his salvation - if nothing else simply because he must respond to God's draw. quote: Yep, and whosoever believes in Him, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be those He has chosen. It will be those to whom He has given the gifts of faith and repentence. It will be those He has predestined, elected, effectually called, regenerated and justified. That is who the "whosoever" is. And the rest of the poor slobs? I guess there's some solace knowing they are ignorant of their fate. I wonder how many of the unchosen are "Chrisitians" because they think they believe? And I wonder how may of the "chosen" live like devils from hell? Guess we'll all find out if we are the "whosoever" in the end, won't we? In the meantime, here we are - trapped in our sinful natures and fleshly minds, the saved and the lost and not yet saved, the saved seeing dimly and finding comfort in creeds and denominations and theologies trying to explain why Mom is saved and Dad is not, and the lost going about their pitiful existences as "vessels prepared in advance for destruction". "For God so loved the world" becomes a lie...... .........unless you redefine the word "world". Which is exactly what election must do.

rwe2156 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/28/2008 1:59:59 PM)
Sorry about that - I thought I was on the CA thread.

dyluck -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/28/2008 4:40:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rwe2156 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Because you insist that when you change your will and repent God saves you. Therefore, God saves according to your will, rather, than what He declares He actually does do - predestine those He has chosen. I believe repentance and faith are prerequisites. I believe the biblical order of salvation is Repent/Believe, THEN Receive. I'm not telling God to save me. No more than by repenting I can forgive myself. Man does play a part in his salvation - if nothing else simply because he must respond to God's draw. Man plays a part in his salvation by faith, repentance and living a christlike life... all desires and actions inspiried and given through God via the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. Then read Galatians 5:13-26 God chooses us first: Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. Notice here that this is a prime example that God does the first action. Here is a really good verse that tells us that we cannot respond to God until first he changes us. John 6:44 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 3:3 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." Ezekiel 11:19-20 19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 36:25-27 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. (what does God do then with the heart of flesh?) 2 Corinthians 3:2-4 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. quote: Yep, and whosoever believes in Him, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be those He has chosen. It will be those to whom He has given the gifts of faith and repentence. It will be those He has predestined, elected, effectually called, regenerated and justified. That is who the "whosoever" is. quote: And the rest of the poor slobs? I guess there's some solace knowing they are ignorant of their fate. I wonder how many of the unchosen are "Chrisitians" because they think they believe? And I wonder how may of the "chosen" live like devils from hell? Guess we'll all find out if we are the "whosoever" in the end, won't we? In the meantime, here we are - trapped in our sinful natures and fleshly minds, the saved and the lost and not yet saved, the saved seeing dimly and finding comfort in creeds and denominations and theologies trying to explain why Mom is saved and Dad is not, and the lost going about their pitiful existences as "vessels prepared in advance for destruction". "For God so loved the world" becomes a lie...... .........unless you redefine the word "world". Which is exactly what election must do. I am not to sure if I like the condecending tone. Who are we to judge God's will? Here is your reason some are "destined" as you put it to be "destroyed" Romans 9:22-23 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— To prove his mercy to the ones he chooses to have mercy as an example. Here is proof my brother that if you believe right now and Seek God with all your heart.. you were chosen by him. What great thankfullnes we give to him! Romans 3-10-13 10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."[a] 13"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 2 Timothy 1:9 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, Romans 9:11-13 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. Romans 8:28-30 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Ephesians 2:10 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 1-5 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— Ephesians 1:11 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, There are tonns more but its just an idea.. everything that happens is according to the design work of Amighty God.

kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/29/2008 4:56:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Paul's "waiting around" was done in obedience to the Lord Jesus "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." In addition, Paul was being obedient to the vision he had received from God. He was to wait for the visit from Ananias - to receive his sight. Paul actions were perfectly consistent with one who has been regenerated. Besides, it is not necessarily typical that one rejoices when he has been regenerated. Regeneration is a moment in time and a moment of which man is typically not aware. Paul's waiting to see what would happen may have been done in obedience, but he was still waiting around to see what would happen next. And while he was waiting he was fasting and praying, because he didn't know what was going to happen next, other than regaining his physical sight. I just can't see that as the typical reaction of someone who has just been saved. Paul was waiting for God's further revelation....exactly what any child of God does, only now we search Scripture to find God's revelation. quote: If that is the typical reaction, though, I guess I must by atypical because I sure know exactly at what point in time my regeneration took place. And I didn't spend three days fasting and praying, either, I can tell you that. I was rejoicing and telling everyone I could how great God is!! Of course you would know, since you believe it happened when you were immersed in water. Scripture, though, does not bear out that methodology for regeneration.

kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (10/29/2008 4:59:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rwe2156 I believe repentance and faith are prerequisites. Then you believe in a work's gospel. If you have saving faith, you have been saved. And, if this savilfic faith has not been given by God, well then...I guess you get the picture. No, whatever faith we may possess cannot assist in any way in our salvation. What saves is always "the faith of Jesus Christ" - and that alone. When God commands the unbeliever to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, no unbeliever of himself can believe. The unbeliever is spiritually a corpse and he of himself will not and cannot believe. The only way he will manifest saving faith in Christ is if God gives it to him. This is directly parralel to the command of John 3:7 "Ye must be born again". Nobody can make himself born again. God must do all the work in making us born again. Likewise, no one of himself has salvific faith to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, God must do all the work through Jesus Christ and His faith in saving us. Therefore, our having come to believe in Christ is entirely a result of having become saved - not a "prerequisite".

pabrain -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (12/29/2008 12:12:49 PM)
Subject: Once Saved Always Saved, with questions Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Please tell me how it is possible to loose that which is hidden with Christ in God.? 2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Please explain why these words of Paul cannot possibly apply also, to all Christians?, are you saying that He is not able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Be very careful how you answer this question,, you could be calling God a liar. Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, Are you saying that He is not able to keep me from stumbling, And not able to present me faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, Be very careful how you answer this question,, you could be calling God a liar. Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them I find the above Scripture verse to be both encouraging, and comforting, I hope you do also Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; Tell me is He able to do this, or not, is it dependant on me giving Him my permission? What about the following verses. Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure, Am I, a mere human able to prevent God's will being done? Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one." Eternal life is everlasting life, and as Jesus says above, they who have it "shall never perish". How then can you possibly say that they will perish, when Jesus says they will not? Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Note that the word "glorified", is written in the past tense, because from the Divine view point in eternity, it has already happened, do not try to understand it, but take God at his word. A real genuine article born again Christian is eternally secure. God has said so, I believe Him, and that's good enough for me. Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Please tell me how anyone can read the above four verses, and still maintain that, "Salvation can be lost"? The Fathers will is that Jesus should not lose any of those who come to Him. Is Jesus able to do His Fathers will, yes, or no? This is not a case of you not losing your salvation, but of Jesus not losing your salvation. You carn't , and He wont. 1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Note. see my comment on "Eternal life", above, also note Eternal life is what you have now if you are a real Christian, and not something you may get later on if you behave yourself properly. Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. See my comment on "Eternal life", above. 1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or on Him? Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."* Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Would you agree than the expression "nor any other created thing," would include myself,? if so then it is impossible for me to be able to lose my salvation, and thereby "separate myself from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or on Him? Edwin. pabrain

greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (12/29/2008 3:31:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pabrain Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or on Him? Absolutely God is able. It depends on God and it depends on me. It depends on God to impart is grace to me and it depends on me to accept it. Further I can accept it now, and totally reject it later, should I so choose. God loves me so much that He will allow me to leave Him if ever I should want to do that. I don't ever foresee me doing that, but it is a possibility.

kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (12/30/2008 3:17:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 God loves me so much that He will allow me to leave Him if ever I should want to do that. What kind of love is that?....no kind. God loves you so much He would allow the object of that love to agonizingly, torturously burn forever in hell? May God spare us all that kind of "love".

greatdivide46 -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (12/30/2008 7:49:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman May God spare us all that kind of "love". Is that kind of love any worse than than the kind that says you're staying with me whether you like it or not? My own experience with God's love tells me that even if God is disappointed in me, He'll still allow me to make wrong choices because He wants me to love Him voluntarily and of my own free will. Not because He's forcing me to love Him. What kind of love is forced love? No kind. God spare us from that kind of love.

kelman -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (12/31/2008 2:43:02 AM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 ORIGINAL: kelman May God spare us all that kind of "love". Is that kind of love any worse than than the kind that says you're staying with me whether you like it or not? Hmm....heaven or eternal torture?....which is worse? Besides, that's not the kind of love God gives to His children. A true child of God loves Him, the desire of his heart is to know and love God more and more...only because God first loved him. Even if it were true, which it's not, that God "forces" against man's will, I'd still much rather that kind of love than the one you're suggesting....loves me so much He sends me into everlasting torture and agonizing pain. quote: My own experience with God's love tells me that even if God is disappointed in me, He'll still allow me to make wrong choices because He wants me to love Him voluntarily and of my own free will. I don't think we find this idea in Scripture. If God doesn't enter into the life of the sinner, the sinner will always "voluntarily" and of his "own free will" choose that which he loves - and it is not God. Is man really free?....God tells us he is not. Man is in bondage to sin and Satan and will follow that which enslaves him. quote: Not because He's forcing me to love Him. What kind of love is forced love? No kind. God spare us from that kind of love. Whoever said God "forces" anyone to love Him?....not me. Whosoever loves God does so from a changed heart, a heart no longer in bondage to sin and Satan. Only then can one truly love God. No matter how vehemently man insists he can give birth to a new spirit, that he can change his own sinful heart - God says he can't.

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