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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 3:57:46 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, Paul knew who had appeared to him, the Lord told him who He was. We see this in Acts 9:5 "....I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:" Paul showed the evidence of regeneration right there as he recognized Jesus as Lord and humbly submitted to His command. Yes, Paul knew who had appeared to him, but Jesus had not yet identified Himself when Paul uttered the word "Lord." Therefore, the word "Lord" did not refer to Jesus as Lord. Paul said, "Who are you, Lord?" Obviously at the point he didn't know who he was talking to. Therefore, I don't believe that was evidence of regeneration.
We see Paul saying in verse 6 after Jesus identified Himself "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."
So, Paul acknowledged Christ as Lord and humbly obeyed His command. God prepared Paul's heart that day so that he readily believed Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah, and would also later believe all that Ananias told him.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 6:13:57 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"only dependent"?....then it's not much of a "sovereign" act is it?
That is not the definition of "sovereign". Your definition requires God's
dependence on man to do something. In fact, you add your human will
so it is not a "sovereign" act of God at all. It, therefore, violates what we see
in John 3 and other passages as well
You don't think God responds to a decision of man?
See Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10; 26:3, 13, 19; Amos 7:1-6; Joel 2:13, Jonah 3:9.
Also 2 Chr 7:14. A study of all the parallels lead me to the conclusion God
does in fact, respond to free will decisions of man, however distasteful that might
be to you - and still remains sovereign.
quote:
You said God regenerates because of your faith and repentance.
It is your faith and repentance which gives God the "permission" to regenerate you.
Oh please.
Its a condition met.
It is the Gospel: Repent and believe and you will receive.
< Message edited by rwe2156 -- 10/22/2008 6:21:32 AM >
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 7:30:58 AM
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greatdivide46
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
So, Paul acknowledged Christ as Lord and humbly obeyed His command. God prepared Paul's heart that day so that he readily believed Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah, and would also later believe all that Ananias told him. OK, I get it. Paul called Jesus "Lord" in Acts 22:8, before he knew who Jesus was and he called him "Lord" in Acts 22:10 after Jesus had identified himself. In both instances I don't believe the word "Lord" carries any more force than the word "Sir" we use today when referring to people we respect. Therefore, I don't believe that Paul's use of the word in these two verses is any indication of his regeneration. And he was going to Damascus anyway, so obeying Jesus' command isn't an indication of regeneration either, in my view. Besides he pretty much had to go where people led him, although I'm sure he told them where he wanted to go.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 9:33:11 PM
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greatdivide46
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Greatdivide,
Kelman was quoting Paul's 'chapter 22 testimony' of salvation, which we must collate with Paul's 'chapter 9 testimony'. And with that chronological accounting method, it appears to me that Paul knew who he was calling "Lord". I know kelman was quoting from Acts 22. Based on your statement above I went back and read all three of Paul's conversion accounts and all three of them say the same thing. Paul was struck blind by a great light, heard a voice, and then said "Who are you, Lord?" (Acts 9:5; 22:8; 25:15) Now it seems obvious to me that if Paul knew it was Jesus he wouldn't need to ask who it was.
quote:
I guess I'm a little lost as to what you think is required. There certainly isn't scripture saying one is lost if they 'fast, pray and are blind'. It's not that you may have not said what's required before, but I just don't remember. So tell us, what's required, and when did Paul do 'whatever it is' that you think 'is' required? Chapter and verse too, if you would please. My only point in bringing up Paul's fasting and praying after his encounter with Jesus, is that typically someone who has just been saved rejoices. They don't fast and pray for three days waiting for something to happen.
As far as what's required I think Ananias' instructions to Paul in Acts 22:16 give an accurate accounting of what's required.
quote:
I don't think we're assuming as much as you seem to be...but I'd like to find out I guess.  You might also lift your shirt up and look for a "goad" mark or two... 
What do you think I'm assuming? And I fail to see the significance of the "goad" mark remark. I guess I'm just dense. I can be that way sometimes.
DR
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 4:00:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"only dependent"?....then it's not much of a "sovereign" act is it?
That is not the definition of "sovereign". Your definition requires God's
dependence on man to do something. In fact, you add your human will
so it is not a "sovereign" act of God at all. It, therefore, violates what we see
in John 3 and other passages as well
You don't think God responds to a decision of man?
See Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10; 26:3, 13, 19; Amos 7:1-6; Joel 2:13, Jonah 3:9.
Also 2 Chr 7:14. A study of all the parallels lead me to the conclusion God
does in fact, respond to free will decisions of man, however distasteful that might
be to you - and still remains sovereign. No, you are simply describing a non-omniscient god, one who lacks knowledge, one who changes his mind according to man's decisions. That is not the God described in the Bible.
quote:
quote:
You said God regenerates because of your faith and repentance.
It is your faith and repentance which gives God the "permission" to regenerate you.
Oh please.
Its a condition met.
It is the Gospel: Repent and believe and you will receive.
God does not save according to your will. He saves according to His will and the plan He put into place "before the foundation of the world".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 4:22:55 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
So, Paul acknowledged Christ as Lord and humbly obeyed His command. God prepared Paul's heart that day so that he readily believed Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah, and would also later believe all that Ananias told him. OK, I get it. Paul called Jesus "Lord" in Acts 22:8, before he knew who Jesus was and he called him "Lord" in Acts 22:10 after Jesus had identified himself. In both instances I don't believe the word "Lord" carries any more force than the word "Sir" we use today when referring to people we respect. Therefore, I don't believe that Paul's use of the word in these two verses is any indication of his regeneration. And he was going to Damascus anyway, so obeying Jesus' command isn't an indication of regeneration either, in my view. Besides he pretty much had to go where people led him, although I'm sure he told them where he wanted to go.
I wasn't referencing Acts 22 here. Those specific remarks were in reference to Acts 9:5-6 because in the earlier post you said Paul didn't know who Christ was. Acts 9:5-6 proves that Paul did know precisely who Christ was.
In Acts 9:5, Christ revealed Himself to Paul. In Acts 9:6, Paul called Christ Lord, asked what His will was and then obeyed that command.
"He was going to Damascus anyway"??? Paul's words to Christ in verse 6 are the words of every true believer "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"
As for "Lord" simply being a term of respect like sir, that's only true with the lower case "l". Sorry, but it can hardly be said that the shining light of God, brighter than the noon-day sun, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ was mistaken by Paul for some "lord". Paul knew precisely who it was that appeared to him.
quote:
Now it seems obvious to me that if Paul knew it was Jesus he wouldn't need to ask who it was. Not sure why you keep saying this. The verses are crystal clear that Christ revealed Himself by name to Paul then Paul asked Christ for instructions. Even before Christ revealed Himself by name, Paul certainly knew he was experiencing something divine.
Acts 9:4, 5, 6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the ****s. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 7:09:45 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Acts 9:4, 5, 6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the ****s. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
The only point I'm making is that in verse 5 Paul didn't know it was Jesus he was encountering. Obviously, after Jesus identified himself in the latter part of that verse, Paul knew who He was. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that Paul didn't know it was Jesus after Jesus identified Himself. Paul had to ask who it was. That's why I don't think the use of the term "Lord" is an indication of regeneration. After all one cannot speak a capital letter. 
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 10/23/2008 2:08:24 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 10:59:32 AM
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Him4all
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From: Kansas
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quote:
As far as what's required I think Ananias' instructions to Paul in Acts 22:16 give an accurate accounting of what's required.
ACT 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. What exactly does this mean to you? Do you have to call out "Jesus!" when you get baptized in your church? Or do those baptizing you, say something?
quote:
What do you think I'm assuming? And I fail to see the significance of the "goad" mark remark. I guess I'm just dense. I can be that way sometimes. It was truly my attempt at humor based upon the following scripture.
ACT 26:14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.' What Jesus was saying was, 'Paul you're fighting against the truth that I have been 'poking' you with'. Paul knew the truth, he just wasn't accepting it. That is, until Jesus revealed himself and spoke audibly....that's my opinion of course. But you already knew that.
Kelman,
quote:
it is hard for thee to kick against the ****s I curious as to why you put the "****" in your post.
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 3:10:34 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
quote:
As far as what's required I think Ananias' instructions to Paul in Acts 22:16 give an accurate accounting of what's required.
ACT 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. What exactly does this mean to you? Do you have to call out "Jesus!" when you get baptized in your church? Or do those baptizing you, say something? Whatever calling on the name of the Lord is it results in salvation. This phrase comes from Joel 2:32 and Joel's point is whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered. This is how Peter and Paul quote it: Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Paul equates it with the confession of the mouth that Jesus is Lord, a confession that results in salvation (Rom. 10:9-10; cf. 10:13).
quote:
Kelman,
quote:
it is hard for thee to kick against the ****s I curious as to why you put the "****" in your post.
Don't think kelman had anything to do with the "****" That's an automatic censoring device of Crosswalk for socially unacceptable words, no matter what context they're used in.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 10:29:14 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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greatdivide46,
quote:
ACT 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. What exactly does this mean to you? Do you have to call out "Jesus!" when you get baptized in your church? Or do those baptizing you, say something?
You never answered my question GD. Joel never spoke of baptism and Peter never related water baptism to Joel's verse. If anything, Peter spoke of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as being part of the fulfillment of Joel's prophesy.
ACT 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
What was spoken of by the prophet Joel wasn't about getting saved...it was about getting delivered from the enemy Titus, who was going to destroy the Temple, the sacrificial system and Jerusalem in the last days of the OT system.
quote:
Don't think kelman had anything to do with the "****" That's an automatic censoring device of Crosswalk for socially unacceptable words, no matter what context they're used in.
I don't think so. Goads is in Acts 26:14 just as I posted in my last post. Why would it be censored? A goad was simply a stick used to make the oxen move. They poked them with it, and the ox would try to kick it, which did no good cause it wasn't hurting the one doing the poking.
DR
PS by the way...no ****...did you notice?
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 4:29:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Acts 9:4, 5, 6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the ****s. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
The only point I'm making is that in verse 5 Paul didn't know it was Jesus he was encountering. Obviously, after Jesus identified himself in the latter part of that verse, Paul knew who He was. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that Paul didn't know it was Jesus after Jesus identified Himself. Paul had to ask who it was. That's why I don't think the use of the term "Lord" is an indication of regeneration. After all one cannot speak a capital letter.
The word "Lord" alone may not be an indication of regeneration; but that coupled with the rest of Paul's words and actions is.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 4:31:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Kelman,
quote:
it is hard for thee to kick against the ****s
I curious as to why you put the "****" in your post.
Oh, you know those religiously incorrect King James Bibles...gotta watch those donkeys too!...lol
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 6:44:17 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, you are simply describing a non-omniscient god,
Why would he be non-omniscient?
quote:
one who lacks knowledge,
Not true.
quote:
one who changes his mind according to man's decisions.
Who said he did that? The Bible says God "changed his mind", "relented"
and "repented" - what does that mean?
quote:
That is not the God described in the Bible.
The God of the Bible interacts with his creation.
quote:
God does not save according to your will.
I dont' believe he does. Why do you say this.
quote:
He saves according to His will and the plan He put
into place "before the foundation of the world".
Yes. Whosoever believes in him, whosoever calls on the name of the Lord
and he waits patiently for men to repent, not wanting any to perish.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 8:10:09 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
greatdivide46,
quote:
ACT 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. What exactly does this mean to you? Do you have to call out "Jesus!" when you get baptized in your church? Or do those baptizing you, say something?
You never answered my question GD. Joel never spoke of baptism and Peter never related water baptism to Joel's verse. If anything, Peter spoke of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as being part of the fulfillment of Joel's prophesy.
Sorry I didn't answer your question. I thought, since you bolded the phrase "calling on the name of the Lord" that that's what you were questioning. Therefore that's what I answered.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 8:18:38 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
ACT 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: What was spoken of by the prophet Joel wasn't about getting saved...it was about getting delivered from the enemy Titus, who was going to destroy the Temple, the sacrificial system and Jerusalem in the last days of the OT system.
It may be true that Joel's prophecy was about deliverance from Titus but Peter's audience would know nothing about being delivered from Titus 40 or so years in the future. But they would know something about being delivered from their old sinful nature not many moments from then. Therefore, in this context, I believe Peter applied Joel's prophecy to being delivered from the old sinful nature, even though the main thrust of the prophecy may have lain elsewhere.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 8:27:02 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The word "Lord" alone may not be an indication of regeneration; but that coupled with the rest of Paul's words and actions is. You may be correct. However, I just can't see praying, refusing to eat, and waiting around to see what's going to happen for three days as the actions of someone who has just been regenerated. Typically someone who is regenerated rejoices. At least everyone I've seen regenerated did that. Not a single one of them immediately went into prayer and fasting, waiting to see what would happen next.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 6:18:27 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have to call out "Jesus!" when you get baptized in your church? Or do those baptizing you, say something? IOW how does 'calling on the name of the Lord' get fulfilled by us experientially?
When someone comes down the aisle they are asked if they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Normally they answer in the affirmative thus fulfilling experientially the requirement to call on the name of the Lord. They are then immediately baptized. And this in the SBC church that I attend.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/25/2008 12:49:55 PM
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dyluck
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Just speaking on calling on the name of the lord especially during the "sinner's prayer" you should check out this sermon Regeneration vs Decisionism, also goes along with the confidence or security of someone who calls on the name of the lord (asks Jesus in their heart).
Do you guys think we are saved at the point of conversion or do you think confidence/security comes when we are truly regenerated?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/25/2008 3:33:16 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have to call out "Jesus!" when you get baptized in your church? Or do those baptizing you, say something? IOW how does 'calling on the name of the Lord' get fulfilled by us experientially?
When someone comes down the aisle they are asked if they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Normally they answer in the affirmative thus fulfilling experientially the requirement to call on the name of the Lord. They are then immediately baptized. And this in the SBC church that I attend.
Finally...thank you. Now, when did scripture say Paul did that, or its equivalent? I don't think it does. And is it the fact that they are audibly confessing the above, to your church, that makes it valid before God?
What if I was by myself sitting in my car. And I just quietly said "God, I know you exist, help me stop smoking cigarettes, and then lit up a joint, and drove off?" Do you think I would be saved?  I'm not trying to trap you here, but I am telling you my testimony. And from that day forth my life changed. BTW, I did get free of the pot later on too.
And months later, in a bible study concerning water baptism, I felt convicted by The Spirit, that my Catholic infant baptism wasn't valid...along with three Lutherans. We four, then made plans to go down to the river and get dunked by the homegroup leader.
All pretty 'non traditional' as far as meeting any "church" protocols, but I wouldn't trade one bit of it because I don't think any of it was wrong.
A while back you said you thought I was a 'Christian'...wanna back out? 
Dyluck,
quote:
Do you guys think we are saved at the point of conversion or do you think confidence/security comes when we are truly regenerated?
I think my spirit is saved at 'regeneration' my soul is being saved by 'renewal', and my body walking in those salvations is 'conversion'. 
DR
Edit was for clarification
< Message edited by Him4all -- 10/25/2008 10:17:02 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 4:41:17 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Finally...thank you. Now, when did scripture say Paul did that, or its equivalent? I don't think it does. And is it the fact that they are audibly confessing the above, to your church, that makes it valid before God?
Scripture may not say that Paul actually did that, or its equivalent, but when Ananias instructed him do so, I'm sure he did, even though it's not recorded for us. And no, it doesn't have to be done before a church to make it valid, but I do think it has to be done audibly before at least one other person. Otherwise how could it be termed a "confession" as Paul terms it?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/26/2008 5:56:00 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Dyluck,
quote:
Interesting that statement. I guess I was looking for 1 answer.
I know you were, and you're not the only one who would expect "1 answer". I often give a twist, to the conventional questions/answers, bu | | |
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