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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 7:59:54 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Grace doesnt cover willful disobedience IMO.
How, then, can it really be called grace? If grace is truly unmerited favor, then it must be that - unmerited. By adding stipulations onto it that involve our action, it becomes something we must merit.
And also, it is precisely because we do "willfully sin" that we need the grace provided by the Savior and Advocate.
The term is confusing kelman, is it not ..."willful disobedience" ?
What would non-willful disobedience be I wonder ?
Some appear to launch a camouflage tactic by masking their sin.
Ah, man and his feeble attempts to cover the feces of sin !
We are resposible for ALL our sin...ALL our sin is willful !
Confess it---thank God for His infinite mercy...don't pretend it ain't sin !
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:09:09 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy and unforgiveable.
And claiming that God removes His grace on the basis of anything that man does is blasphemous, but forgiveable.
So in your view I am free to sin, commit blasphemy... do anything and everything that is unclean but as long as I profess to believe in Jesus Christ I get to enter Heaven?
Not free to sin, rather you WILL sin !!!
WE all will sin and no one wants to...right !
Is God keeping score...I'm a sunk duck !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:44:26 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Freegrace:
Belief is evidenced by actions. Actions are proof we believe. I have given you many texts and the bible is full of many more. All of which you interpret differently than I. Its clear to me, I'm sorry its not clear to you.
I appreciate the lesson. Heard it long ago in the 1960s by a well-meaning country preacher that failed to read the whole context. Jesus gave that admonition immediately after the Pharisees accused Him of performing miracles in the power of Satan. That is clear. The "denying=blasphemy" is a nice-sounding, homespun twist to context.
If one rejects the conviction of the Holy Spirit until death, they'll go to hell. Same if they pursue salvation in any other religion. But that was not what Jesus was talking about when He addressed the subject.
Blasphemy is intentional and extreme disrespect. It's far worse than passive indecision.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:50:22 AM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It's not that cut and dried.
Yes, that's what I keep trying to explain to you, I'm glad we agree.
quote:
Blasphemy is intentional and extreme disrespect. It's far worse than passive indecision.
Agreed. Sorry, I didn't not have time to find the passage I really wanted to put along with that point (something about a righteous man walking away and becoming twice dead). It probably would have made my position a bit more clear.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:59:34 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Agreed. Sorry, I didn't not have time to find the passage I really wanted to put along with that point (something about a righteous man walking away and becoming twice dead). It probably would have made my position a bit more clear.
I'd really like to see that passage because I don't recall seeing it before. The closest I can think of is Jude 1:12, but that's not about "righteous" men. Verses 14 & 15 call them "ungodly" and "ungodly sinners."
Still, though, Jesus defines a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit as one who calls the direct work of the Holy Spirit to be the work of Satan.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 10:03:08 AM
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raivyne
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I'm at work, so I'll look for it as soon as I can.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 10:07:54 AM
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raivyne
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Don't have time to type them...
Ezekiel 18:24 and Hebrews 6:4-6
Basically (in my words) if you accept the gift of the Holy Spirit and later fall once more into wickedness you cannot be redeemed again. YMMV
< Message edited by raivyne -- 10/2/2008 10:14:29 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 12:05:52 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Don't buy that for 1 second :). 1st of all, It says (paraphrased) if you receive the mark you will be in the lake of fire, the second death. The ones who have the mark are plagued for 5 months. (they are alive during that time).
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
How does this negate the mark being metaphorical language? All the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire. The "mark" should be understood spiritually to simply mean that those who are not saved carry the ownership brand of Satan. The same is meant by the saved having the mark of their Father upon them. It is language to show that these are eternally owned by God and are citizens of His kingdom.
Not all revelations is cryptic. I think "you cannot buy or sell good without it" is pretty straight forward.
quote:
Dyluck:
Secondly, if you believe that then there is no chance for the unsaved to be saved because if they have the "mark" they are destined for hell, no chance, no redemption!
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Kelman:
Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying you believe those with the mark of the beast might become saved when Rev 19 says "them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
If you read more of that statment I was being sarcastic because thats what it sounds like you were saying.
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2nd you will not be able to buy or sell without it. Does that mean people at the cashregister will have some sort of magic eyes that they can see a supernatural seal on your hand or forehead.
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No, what it means is that God is speaking in parabolic language. The Gospel is not concerned with commerce; but, in the Bible we see examples of the Gospel spoken of as being bought and sold without money(Isa 55:1). And, of course, we see Christ parabolically identified as the "merchant" in Mat 13:45.
Oh my goodness... you realize this belief you have is very new. Don't let someone deceieve you. It is very straght forward. What mark of Man (666) is supernatural to you... Man is not supernatural. The mark of the beast is the number of man not the number of satan. the beast is not the anti-christ, if you read revelations and all the other actual cryptic/symbolic stuff. The beast is a nation or a group of nations.
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Interesting that they are currently testing a chip that charges via body temperature and can only be accepted and charged in either the back of the hand or the forhead, has all your socal security information/ health etc. Some goverments are in talks about using this system universal, having RFID implanted vs in a credit card or passport.
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The same hysteria was evidenced when Social Security cards were first introduced or even the first computers. The government actually named the giant commuter "the beast"...really freaked some people out.
Good luck taking the mark man. They are rolling it out to military, bank workers here in Canada and some countries are in serious talks about introducing it to the population.
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I believe God's seal / mark (only described on the forehead) is supernatural as the angels have it too. The mark of the beast is a physical mark.
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Why is one mark literal and the other not? The Book of Revelation is a highly metaphorical book and to not read it as such is to come away with fantastic imagery but not with truth.
Because the mark by God on us is the "seal of God" it is the santifying blood of Christ.
the other is not talking about a supernatural seal (you are right it is supernatural too). I believe it is initiated with a phsical mark. God Marked Cain with a physical mark... People will lose their heads when they do not take the mark. The doors of the houses of the Hebrews were marked physically with blood for the passover.
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The lambs book thing, I only see the book of life / lambs book as the same book.
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Not the same since in one book names can be removed but they are never removed from the Lamb's Book.
Prove it please... I don't see anywhere in the bible where it says "cannot be removed". But we have instances of either never being writen in it or having names blotted out. Remember the book of life / judgment power is passed to Christ. Do not forget that. The lambs book is the book of life. There is reference to it in psalms too.
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Lastly we see other books (plural) in which the dead are judged by their deeds. quote:
No names are given for these books. Besides all these books are not literal books. God doesn't need to write things down so He won't forget them.
Where do you come up with these assumptions. By your comment then there is no need for the book of life either hey. Yes God knows everything, but still there are books. God knows who is going to heaven or hell, yet we are still here. God knows what we are going to pray before we pray, yet we must pray. So please don't give me that.
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I do not see a distinction, biblically, there being two different "salvation" books.
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There aren't two different "salvation" books. There is only one book which has the names of all those who will ever come to salvation - the Lamb's Book.
sooooo what are you saying then? You said there are two books. The book of life and the lambs book of life. Life is salvation thats what "life" is reffered to it's not the book of people going to hell... The only book of life is the lambs book. The two names "the book of life" and the "lambs book of life" are both the same book.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 1:20:31 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Don't have time to type them...
Ezekiel 18:24 and Hebrews 6:4-6
Basically (in my words) if you accept the gift of the Holy Spirit and later fall once more into wickedness you cannot be redeemed again. YMMV
Hi raivyne. Keep strong sister. I know what you mean.
People will find something about that too.
Here are the verses:
Ezekiel 18:24 (New International Version)
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
"oh this is the OT" is what people will say... "its all changed" NO ITS NOT! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. Jesus didn't come to abolish God's word or change his nature. His nature is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. The difference is that his grace is evident in the sacrifice of Jesus. That doesn't change the fact that someone who abuses the Grace of God is heaven bound to begin with. I submit someone who argues sin with a Holy God isn't a Son of God.
Lord lord I casted out demons and prophesied in your name. He will say "get thee from my sight one who practices lawlessness." - People neglect to see the key words "One who practices lawlessness" - One who practices sin, one who practices iniquity. Whatever you want to translated it to, It is one who lives like a carnal habitual sinful life... Like God didn't give them a law to obey.
Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Thats why there are versus like what you see all over Romans, Corintians, etc... 1 John and in Hebrews when it says to not trample underfoot Jesus sacrifice because you want to willfully sin.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 2:30:21 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
"oh this is the OT" is what people will say... "its all changed" NO ITS NOT! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. Jesus didn't come to abolish God's word or change his nature. His nature is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. The difference is that his grace is evident in the sacrifice of Jesus. That doesn't change the fact that someone who abuses the Grace of God is heaven bound to begin with. I submit someone who argues sin with a Holy God isn't a Son of God.
That's why I threw in the Hebrews verse, which repeats the same message. 
There is a subtlety here, which is the cause of much confusion I think. Galatians explains it well.
Galatians 5:13-26 (emphasis mine):
quote:
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Galatians 6:1-8:
quote:
Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Our outward actions show our inner heart. That is why faith without actions is dead. When you fully receive the gift of Jesus (the Holy Spirit) your sinful nature will die. Of course people, by their own will and nature, cannot remain blameless… it is only the Holy Spirit living within you that can enable you to act the way you should.
Before Jesus died we only had the law, we did not have the gift of the Holy Spirit. Without the gift of the Holy Spirit we cannot possibly stay within the law.
This is also talked about in 1 Thessalonians and Titus. Other books as well.
There is a reason when the rich man came to Jesus and asked him “what must I do to receive eternal life?” that Jesus didn’t simply say, “Believe I am the Messiah and you will live life eternal.” There’s a reason He told the woman at the well to go forth and sin no more. There’s a reason He said its very difficult for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God.
And there’s a reason Paul declares because he has taught the WHOLE of God’s will he is innocent of the blood (implying death or punishments) of all men (false teachers shall receive the worst punishment). There’s a reason he said the WHOLE of God’s will. There’s a reason that the NT is filled with instruction on how to live and how to recognize who has the Holy Spirit in them.
There’s a reason we are told to be careful what we hear and to watch out for wolves in our midst. There’s a reason that the gate to God’s kingdom is narrow. There’s a reason Jesus says to pluck out your own eye to prevent sin. There’s a reason Hebrews reads that if we deliberately keep sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth no sacrifice is left to cover it.
We are not under the law of Moses anymore, we are under the law of Christ. To fulfill Christ's law we must act (with the power of the Holy Spirit in us) in love at all times, we can only receive the Holy Spirit by accepting Jesus as the Christ. You have to be willing to stand convicted and surrender the WHOLE of your being in order to be reborn again in Spirit.
< Message edited by raivyne -- 10/2/2008 3:59:36 PM >
_____________________________
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Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 3:50:51 PM
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dyluck
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Well said again raivyne.
Galatians 5:1
[ Freedom in Christ ] It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Matthew 11:28-30
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
What slavery is he talking about?? This is the breaking point of doctrines being discussed here.
They think that Christ set them free from sin in terms of it is not damning them. We know it is free from the slavery of the bondage of sinful nature.
Romans 6:16-18
16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
<edit here:
See how it says "but thanks be to God that, though you USED TO be slaves to sin". It then says why.. you obeyed the form of teaching that you were entrusted.
>
1 John 5:1-5
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
This last verse takes a full circle. When you read it the last sentance leads you back to the top of the paragraph again. If you believe in Jesus as the Son of God, and in your love you will obey his commands. They are not burdensome because you are no longer a slave to the sin you loved!
< Message edited by dyluck -- 10/2/2008 5:15:21 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:33:04 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Further, if you think you can "lose" your salvation, you have to deal with the fact that at the moment of belief, God regenerates the believer. Where in Scripture do you read of that being "reversed"?
Also, all believers are adopted as sons, per Eph 1:5. Where in Scripture do you read that God "undoes" the adoption?
Finally, all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. where in Scripture do you read that God "breaks" that seal?
If salvation could be "lost" or "taken back", the Bible would be very clear that these other things would be reversed or cancelled.
But, they aren't.
We are told we have a GUARANTEE !
2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (New King James Version)
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Where do we see God revoking stuff !!!???
In fact, The Word tells us otherwise !!!
Romans 11:29 (New King James Version)
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 8:48:56 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (New King James Version)
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
If you don't have the Spirit within you, you don't have the guarantee. The Spirit cannot exist in inequity.
quote:
Romans 11:29 (New King James Version)
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
God's calling and gifts are irrevocable... He's not going to stop offering them to man. That doesn't mean that we're all going to choose to be saved and it doesn't mean we can't walk away.
The bible also tells us repeatedly that because of Jesus we have the hope for eternal life. We have hope through Him, but we have to accept Him mind, body and soul so that the Spirit can live and work in us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:02:52 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (New King James Version)
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
If you don't have the Spirit within you, you don't have the guarantee. The Spirit cannot exist in inequity.
HUH?...we're talking about believers "LOSING" salvation.
It says here that it's guaranteed by God Himself !
Why would this apply to UNbelievers...please explain !
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:08:02 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (New King James Version)
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
If you don't have the Spirit within you, you don't have the guarantee. The Spirit cannot exist in inequity.
HUH?...we're talking about believers "LOSING" salvation.
It says here that it's guaranteed by God Himself !
Why would this apply to UNbelievers...please explain !
Well we were, then you quoted "Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." I was merely pointing out (clarifying) that if you don't have the Spirit in you, then you have no guarantee.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:09:12 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
Romans 11:29 (New King James Version)
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
God's calling and gifts are irrevocable... He's not going to stop offering them to man. That doesn't mean that we're all going to choose to be saved and it doesn't mean we can't walk away.
Can't re-write definitions to bolster your opinion...LOL
Main Entry: ir·rev·o·ca·ble
Pronunciation: \i-ˈre-və-kə-bəl, ˌi(r)- sometimes ˌir-(r)ə-ˈvô-kə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin irrevocabilis, from in- + revocabilis revocable
Date: 14th century
: not possible to revoke
Main Entry: 1re·voke Pronunciation: \ri-ˈvôk\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·voked; re·vok·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French revocer, revoquer, from Latin revocare, from re- + vocare to call, from voc-, vox voice — more at voice
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to annul by recalling or taking back : rescind <revoke a will>
2 : to bring or call back
intransitive verb
: to fail to follow suit when able in a card game in violation of the rules
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:13:37 PM
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raivyne
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I'm sorry you didn't understand what I said. I didn't rewrite any definitions. I said:
quote:
God's calling and gifts are irrevocable... He's not going to stop offering them to man.
The gifts are there, the calling is there. both always will be available (IOW won't be revoked) until the day Jesus returns... the point is whether or not one chooses to accept them.
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Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:32:34 PM
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disciplelife
Posts: 60
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: raivyne
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Romans 11:29 (New King James Version)
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
God's calling and gifts are irrevocable... He's not going to stop offering them to man. That doesn't mean that we're all going to choose to be saved and it doesn't mean we can't walk away.
Can't re-write definitions to bolster your opinion...LOL
Main Entry: ir·rev·o·ca·ble
Pronunciation: \i-ˈre-və-kə-bəl, ˌi(r)- sometimes ˌir-(r)ə-ˈvô-kə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin irrevocabilis, from in- + revocabilis revocable
Date: 14th century
: not possible to revoke
Main Entry: 1re·voke Pronunciation: \ri-ˈvôk\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·voked; re·vok·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French revocer, revoquer, from Latin revocare, from re- + vocare to call, from voc-, vox voice — more at voice
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to annul by recalling or taking back : rescind <revoke a will>
2 : to bring or call back
intransitive verb
: to fail to follow suit when able in a card game in violation of the rules
Let's use Romans 1:18-25, 28-32; 3:9-10 as an example.
The Bible states unequivocally the fact of a guilty world (3:9-10). I start with this passage because it represses the conclusion of all the preceding evidence. As 3:19 states, “Now therefore we know that whatever the law says; it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” Guilt describes the status of someone who has lost the verdict in court and is liable to punishment, that is, God’s punishment.
In building the case against the world, the Bible begins with God’s twofold revelation (1:18-20). The unfolding of the nature of God begins with the contrast between the “righteousness of God” (v. 17) with the “wrath of God.” For those who believe God’s wrath is incompatible with His righteousness and love, we must remember the opposite of “love” is “not love.” Whereas love expresses an essential element of who God is, wrath flows from His righteous indignation against sin.
Unrighteous people suppress the truth. God reveals His being in two ways available to all people in all eras of time and places. First, He reveals His existence in each person. The awareness can reveal itself as conscience. Second, God manifests His existence through His creation. The beauty and intricacies of the natural world speak of an infinite mind and the power to create and sustain it.
In spite of the clarity of God’s revelation of Himself, the human race showed a deliberate rejection (vv. 21-23). The past tense of the verb “knew” (v. 21) points to a specific time when people turned away from God, perhaps the post-flood circumstances when Nimrod led the rebellion against God (Gen. 11:1-4). Historically, however, the rejection can refer to any people who, knowing God, get carried away by their own accomplishments and turn their backs on God. The Bible describes the spiritual steps in their slide into destruction. They begin (1) by refusing to glorify God or offering thanks to Him. Then, (2) their thinking lapses into nonsense until their minds become darkened. In the next state they (3) claim to be wise but actually become fools, and finally (4) abandon God’s glory to worship images of humans, birds, animals, and snakes (v. 23).
In the next series of proofs of the guiltiness of all mankind, the Bible spells out the decisive evidence of God’s wrath (vv. 24-25, 28-32). It is being revealed, a present reality. Although eternal punishment in hell exemplifies God’s wrath, it also works itself out in daily life. The punishment for sin devolves into more sin. In clear and concise phrases, God’s Word depicts the ways God gives humans enough rope to hang themselves as they practice the God-given gift of free will.
In the language of the KJV, God gave them up to impure bodies (v. 24). The Bible does not say God gave up on the human race, but that God released people to defile their bodies. In this regard, people substituted animal worship for the holy worship of God. The sexual impurity of worshiping the goddess Diana of the Ephesians illustrates the point. In the second evidence, God gave the people up to evil affections (vv. 26-27). Third, the Bible gave them up to depraved minds (vv. 28-32). Having left God’s standards for right and wrong, they concocted all manner of unrighteousness, too numerous to list here. In their final insult to God, they applauded those who practice these sins. All shame is abandoned.
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 5:15:26 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3869
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: dyluck
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ORIGINAL: kelman
How does this negate the mark being metaphorical language? All the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire. The "mark" should be understood spiritually to simply mean that those who are not saved carry the ownership brand of Satan. The same is meant by the saved having the mark of their Father upon them. It is language to show that these are eternally owned by God and are citizens of His kingdom.
Not all revelations is cryptic. I think "you cannot buy or sell good without it" is pretty straight forward. As straight forward as Christ riding a white horse with a bow?...or angels holding the four winds...or a seven-headed beast?
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No, what it means is that God is speaking in parabolic language. The Gospel is not concerned with commerce; but, in the Bible we see examples of the Gospel spoken of as being bought and sold without money(Isa 55:1). And, of course, we see Christ parabolically identified as the "merchant" in Mat 13:45. Oh my goodness... you realize this belief you have is very new. Not so new...about 2000 years old actually.
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Don't let someone deceieve you. It is very straght forward. If someone is telling you that the Book of Revelation is "very straight forward", then that person is dealing in deception.
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What mark of Man (666) is supernatural to you... Man is not supernatural. Don't know what you're trying to say here.
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The mark of the beast is the number of man not the number of satan. the beast is not the anti-christ, if you read revelations and all the other actual cryptic/symbolic stuff. The beast is a nation or a group of nations. All very interesting; but, what's it have to do with anything I've said?....nothing. Amazingly you swing back and forth from literal to cryptic.
As for the "beast" being a nation or group of nations do you expect an "image" to be made of their likeness? God is using the imagery of the number 666(2/3) for all unsaved man. If you read Zechariah 13 you will see the significance of the number as it relates to both saved(1/3) and unsaved man(2/3).
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The same hysteria was evidenced when Social Security cards were first introduced or even the first computers. The government actually named the giant commuter "the beast"...really freaked some people out. Good luck taking the mark man. They are rolling it out to military, bank workers here in Canada and some countries are in serious talks about introducing it to the population. Ooh, my dog has a chip implanted, should I be worried?...at least, he doesn't have a Social Security card or a computer so maybe it's okay. Seriously, it's the same hysteria that's been in evidence for almost 100 years everytime something new comes along. If you want to know what Scripture means, you search Scripture not the daily newspaper.
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Why is one mark literal and the other not? The Book of Revelation is a highly metaphorical book and to not read it as such is to come away with fantastic imagery but not with truth.
Because the mark by God on us is the "seal of God" it is the santifying blood of Christ.
the other is not talking about a supernatural seal (you are right it is supernatural too). The "mark" is the same type for both God and Satan, it is the name of one or the other(Rev 13:17; 14:1).
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I believe it is initiated with a phsical mark. No, it simply is referring to all the unsaved who are owned by Satan. Just as the "mark" of God indicates we are owned by Him.
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God Marked Cain with a physical mark... There really is no reason to suppose that it was a "physical" mark. The word mark also means a token, ensign or a miracle. Actually, a physical mark would be completely contrary to the desired effect - that no one should kill him. He'd be quite the target. More likely God gave Cain a token or sign or perhaps performed a miracle, to convince him that no person would be permitted to kill him. In Gen 4:14 we see that it was this fear(being killed) Cain had.
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People will lose their heads when they do not take the mark. In Rev 20:4, God is showing us a vision in which we see the believers reigning with Christ after they've been killed.
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The doors of the houses of the Hebrews were marked physically with blood for the passover. You're correct; but how is this passover fact relevant? The Lord Jesus had the marks of the nails in His hands and feet after His Resurrection. I don't see the relevance of these facts to the discussion of the "mark of the beast".
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Not the same since in one book names can be removed but they are never removed from the Lamb's Book.
Prove it please... I don't see anywhere in the bible where it says "cannot be removed". The term itself should be self-explanatory. The Lamb shed His blood only for those written in the Lamb's Book and therefore can never be removed. We do not become saved then unsaved, we do not go from sheep to goats. The Lord Jesus does not unshed His blood. God does not rescind His gift to us - salvation and eternal life.
And these names were written from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
And indicating some names were never written in this book:
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
All mankind has their name written in the Book of Life; and as they die unsaved, their names are blotted out. One by one...blotted out so that by the end of time, both “books” will have the same names in them. The Lamb’s Book contained all those named to be saved from before the foundation of the world. The Book of Life would have had blotted out all names of those who never became saved. There will, in effect, be "one" book left.
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But we have instances of either never being writen in it or having names blotted out. It is only the Lamb's Book that some names have never been written and they are never said to be blotted out. In the Book of Life, yes, they are blotted out..one by one as they die unsaved.
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Remember the book of life / judgment power is passed to Christ. Do not forget that. I'm afraid I must have forgotten it already. Where do you find judgment being "passed" to Christ? He has been judging from the beginning. We see in John 5:22 all judgment has been given to the Lord Jesus. Or, as we see in John 9:39 "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."
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No names are given for these books. Besides all these books are not literal books. God doesn't need to write things down so He won't forget them. Where do you come up with these assumptions. By your comment then there is no need for the book of life either hey. I "come up" with these truths from Scripture. Of course, there isn't a literal book or books. By your reasoning, God is up in heaven sitting, no doubt, on a big throne...maybe wearing spectacles ...leafing through tons of books.
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Yes God knows everything, but still there are books. Ask yourself why would God have the need of literal books? You must remember these are all things seen in a vision. Just check out some of the OT visions, such as in Daniel, to understand that visions must be interpreted.
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God knows who is going to heaven or hell, yet we are still here. God knows what we are going to pray before we pray, yet we must pray. So please don't give me that. What is the relevance of pointing out that we are still here and praying?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 5:19:55 AM
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