|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 1:43:44 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
dyluck,
quote:
Look at the statment "Grace is truly unmerited favor" Grace is a gift not some cheep favor, God doesn't do favors.
You have misinterpreted my use of the word "favor." I don't mean it in the way of a party favor, or "Hey, do me a favor." I meant it in the way of God showing us favor when we deserve none.
quote:
What this verse is saying is that you have been saved by the gift of God's grace. Through the faith that God gives you...
Actually, looking at the Greek, the antecedent for "it" (that is, the gift) cannot refer back to either grace or faith. It refers to salvation as a whole.
quote:
Proof you are saved or "assurance of salvation" is that you are changed supernaturally by God. You will hate sin and it will break you inside when you commit it. You will walk the walk, talk the talk.. You say you are a Christian then act like Christ.
Agreed. But none of us will do this perfectly. We will be imitators of Christ, not exact duplicates. We all willfully sin to some extent. Indeed, I would say only Christians willfully sin, if one defines willfully as "going against one's basic nature," since it is in the basic nature on the unsaved to sin.
And none of that shows that a Christian can lose what is given to them by grace.
raivyne - I like your username, by the way,
quote:
God's grace is only completed by accepting Jesus and ALL his teachings of repentance, obedience (of God's commandments) and faith as evidenced by works.
So... If I am understanding you right... It almost sounds like you're saying we have to change before we receive salvation?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 1:49:04 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
Thanks :)
Not exactly what I mean. There has to be a change of heart or we don't really receive Jesus (IMO there is no change of heart if we say things that amount to "i know this is wrong but it doesn't matter if I stop because I have grace"). God knows our heart and knows the issues we are bringing to light to him to fix in our lives. An earnest work in progress has salvation (IMO); his or her heart has been changed, though the outward change may take longer depending on how long it takes for those strongholds to be found, given over and demolished.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 2:06:12 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
That's exactly why there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation. Every sin you and I ever do has already been covered. But your pov says a lifestyle of unrepentant sin results in loss of salvation. You are not being consistent.
Like I said we have a fundamental disagreement. Grace doesnt cover willful disobedience IMO.
The grace from my God covers every sin. Just how many sins did Christ die for when He died for you? 50%? 75% 25%? For me, He died for all of my sins. Yes, we do disagree.
quote:
quote:
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (I John 2:1-6 emphasis mine)
He didn’t write, “I write this to you so that you may sin and have an advocate”. He writes that those who do not obey are liars because they are claiming Jesus is in their heart but he is not.
Why don't you acknowledge all that he wrote: "but IF you DO sin, we have an Advocate". He wasn't defending sin, or consenting to sin. He was simply acknowledging that believers WILL sin.
quote:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Rev. 21:8 emphasis mine)
If you think that Jesus didn't die for any of these sins, then King David CANNOT be in heaven. He was guilty of murder and adultery. The key here is one of believing or not.
quote:
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (Rev. 22:14-15 emphasis mine)
When was this written, chronologically? After the Tribulation and after the Millenium. So, just who are those "outside"? Remember that at the end of the Millenium all unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan and all his demons. So, just who are those "outside"? Any idea?
quote:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:26-31 emphasis mine)
This passage speaks of divine discipline by the hand of God.
quote:
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:14-24 emphasis mine)
The point being made by James is that those who believe should demonstrate their faith by works.
quote:
“Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46)
Unbelievers have fed and clothed the poor, and housed them, yet are going to hell. What is your point here? Is that what you think this passage is about?
quote:
We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. (Heb. 2:1-3)
Believers certainly drift away, but that doesn't say they will lose their salvation. If you think so, you are assuming what isn't being said.
quote:
See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
This is a warning to not refuse to listen to God. It says nothing of losing salvation.
quote:
Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. (Acts 20:26-31 emphasis mine)
Where is there any mention of loss of salvation or needing works to be saved? No where.
quote:
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. (Col. 1:28 emphasis mine)
This refers to spiritual growth to maturity. Nothing to support works for salvation.
quote:
Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever! (Duet. 5:29 emphasis mine)
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! (Ezek. 18:24-32 emphasis mine)
I can't imagine what you think this passage says. Care to share?
quote:
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. (Jude 4 emphasis mine)
Clearly unbelievers. What is your point?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 2:09:17 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Grace doesnt cover willful disobedience IMO.
How, then, can it really be called grace? If grace is truly unmerited favor, then it must be that - unmerited. By adding stipulations onto it that involve our action, it becomes something we must merit.
MrFribbles.. Look at the statment "Grace is truly unmerited favor" Grace is a gift not some cheep favor, God doesn't do favors. Grace isn't earned, but it can be abused and rejected. Why do you not see this?
While it is true that man can abuse grace, where do we read that God's grace is based on anything man does? No where.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 2:12:23 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Excellent verses Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 6:1-4! Thank you for those.
I would observe that it is through God's grace that we die to sin and are able to overcome it. It is not (IMO) under God's grace that we are allowed continue to (habitually and knowingly) sin and are yet saved - I believe that is a lie.
Your opinion demonstrates a lack of understanding of what grace is and means.
quote:
God's grace is only completed by accepting Jesus and ALL his teachings of repentance, obedience (of God's commandments) and faith as evidenced by works.
To say that "God's grace is only completed" by anything on the part of man is absolutely NOT taught in Scripture. God is absolute in ALL His attributes. Including His grace. It is absolute. There is NOTHING man can do to "complete" anything of God. God is already complete. I can't even understand how you come to your conclusions.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 2:28:13 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Your opinion demonstrates a lack of understanding of what grace is and means.
I would assert the same about your opinion. If you deny Christ you have no salvation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I can't even understand how you come to your conclusions.
Ditto.
We could go around and around with me telling you what I think scripture means and you telling me what you think scripture means... in the end we all draw our own conclusions that should be prayerfully guided by the Holy Spirit to reveal meaning.
I believe that salvation is a gift that should be guarded, you believe it is a gift that won't go away no matter how we abuse it. At the end we may discover that neither of us were entirely correct.
< Message edited by raivyne -- 10/1/2008 2:37:57 PM >
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 2:35:36 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
Your opinion demonstrates a lack of understanding of what grace is and means.
I would assert the same about your opinion.
No kidding!
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I can't even understand how you come to your conclusions.
Ditto.
No kidding!
quote:
We could go around and around with me telling you what I think scripture means and you telling me what you think scripture means... in the end we all draw our own conclusions that should be prayerfully guided by the Holy Spirit to reveal meaning.
I believe that salvation is a gift that should be guarded, you believe it is a gift that won't go away no matter how we abuse it. At the end we may discover that neither of us were entirely correct.
Not so. Grace is either all covering for sin, or not. One of us is right and the other one is completely wrong.
I am confident that there is nothing man can do to break God's hold on him, just as John 10:28-29 says.
The grace of God is just as omnipotent as all of His other attributes. I think it is arrogant to think that man has any ability to negate the grace of God. Abuse? Yes, but negate? No way.
btw, I like your avatar.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 2:38:52 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
I am confident that there is nothing man can do to break God's hold on him, just as John 10:28-29 says.
Don't forget John 10:27 that comes just before that. It defines who gets the gift.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.(John 10:27)
In your opinion, if you have received salvation under grace, are you still saved if you later deny Christ? IOW does denying God take away your salvation?
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 3:01:10 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
I am confident that there is nothing man can do to break God's hold on him, just as John 10:28-29 says.
Don't forget John 10:27 that comes just before that. It defines who gets the gift.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.(John 10:27)
In your opinion, if you have received salvation under grace, are you still saved if you later deny Christ? IOW does denying God take away your salvation?
Yes. Otherwise, there is something I can do to nullify the actions of God, which I believe to be blasphemous to claim. Is man more powerful than God? Of course not. So, there cannot be anything that man can do that nullifies God's actions.
btw, you didn't answer my question to you about how man sins did Christ die for on your behalf, if not all of them? 50% 75% or 25%? This is a legitimate question, given your pov.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 4:15:51 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
Christ died for the all sins of all mankind... but that doesn't mean the wicked will be granted entry into Heaven, which is basically what you are saying. Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy and unforgiveable.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 4:38:37 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Christ died for the all sins of all mankind... but that doesn't mean the wicked will be granted entry into Heaven, which is basically what you are saying.
Not at all. Anyone who has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior will get into heaven, because that's what the Bible claims. You disagree?
quote:
Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy and unforgiveable.
And claiming that God removes His grace on the basis of anything that man does is blasphemous, but forgiveable.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 4:50:57 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Christ died for the all sins of all mankind... but that doesn't mean the wicked will be granted entry into Heaven, which is basically what you are saying.
Not at all. Anyone who has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior will get into heaven, because that's what the Bible claims. You disagree?
What is the evidence of belief? According to the bible it is keeping His commandments, doing good works and having faith. I can say "i believe in Jesus" till I'm blue in the face, but if there is no evidence of such my words are empty.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy and unforgiveable.
And claiming that God removes His grace on the basis of anything that man does is blasphemous, but forgiveable.
So in your view I am free to sin, commit blasphemy... do anything and everything that is unclean but as long as I profess to believe in Jesus Christ I get to enter Heaven?
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 5:01:46 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Christ died for the all sins of all mankind... but that doesn't mean the wicked will be granted entry into Heaven, which is basically what you are saying.
Not at all. Anyone who has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior will get into heaven, because that's what the Bible claims. You disagree?
What is the evidence of belief? According to the bible it is keeping His commandments, doing good works and having faith. I can say "i believe in Jesus" till I'm blue in the face, but if there is no evidence of such my words are empty.
But you are confusing "evidence" with "proof", as in, if there is no "evidence" there is no faith. James is NOT saying that, as you seem to assume. btw, it's NOT what you repeatedly "say" that saves, it's only what you believe.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy and unforgiveable.
And claiming that God removes His grace on the basis of anything that man does is blasphemous, but forgiveable.
So in your view I am free to sin, commit blasphemy... do anything and everything that is unclean but as long as I profess to believe in Jesus Christ I get to enter Heaven?
No, NOT as "long as you profess...". No one is saved by what they "profess".
You need to prove that salvation is lost by clear texts that plainly state such, yet they are lacking. Instead, we have many texts that tell us that God gives us eternal life when we believe, with NO verses that even suggest that He takes away His gift if we cease to believe or start behaving badly.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 5:02:14 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6360
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
...Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy and unforgiveable.
That is popular myth because, according to Jesus, attributing the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit to Satan is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Some modern and largely uneducated men came up with the rationalization that rejecting the Gospel or denying the Holy Spirit is the same as blasphemy and unforgiveable. But it just ain't so. Look it up for yourself and see.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 8:12:52 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
Freegrace:
Belief is evidenced by actions. Actions are proof we believe. I have given you many texts and the bible is full of many more. All of which you interpret differently than I. Its clear to me, I'm sorry its not clear to you.
JimboFletch:
The same verses from different sources:
quote:
"There's nothing done or said that can't be forgiven. But if you deliberately persist in your slanders against God's Spirit, you are repudiating the very One who forgives. If you reject the Son of Man out of some misunderstanding, the Holy Spirit can forgive you, but when you reject the Holy Spirit, you're sawing off the branch on which you're sitting, severing by your own perversity all connection with the One who forgives.
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Spirit, the Holy One, will not be forgiven, either in this world and age or in the world and age to come.(matt. 12:31-32, the message)
quote:
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy (every evil, abusive, [n]injurious speaking, or indignity against sacred things) can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the [Holy] Spirit shall not and [o]cannot be forgiven. (matt. 12:31-32, AMP)
quote:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (matt 12:31-32, KJV)
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 8:29:29 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Freegrace:
Belief is evidenced by actions. Actions are proof we believe.
It's not that cut and dried. Lack of actions does NOT mean lack of faith.
quote:
I have given you many texts and the bible is full of many more. All of which you interpret differently than I. Its clear to me, I'm sorry its not clear to you.
Ditto here.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 8:43:34 PM
|
|
|
disciplelife
Posts: 61
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
It's not that cut and dried. Lack of actions does NOT mean lack of faith.
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14-26)
cut AND dried... no actions, dead faith (Feel that sinking feeling in your chest? It's Christ telling you he never knew you!)
disciplelife
_____________________________
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 9:37:28 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
quote:
It's not that cut and dried. Lack of actions does NOT mean lack of faith.
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14-26)
cut AND dried... no actions, dead faith (Feel that sinking feeling in your chest? It's Christ telling you he never knew you!)
disciplelife
What you apparently fail to understand is when James says "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone", he was referring to being justified in the eyes of others. God doesn't need to "see" our faith in action to know we have it.
Now, before you start spouting off about my "re-writing the Bible" just look at the argument James presents in James 2:18. "But someone may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
What is being compared isn't whether they both have faith, but rather one who has faith, and the other who has both faith and works. The point he is making is that one cannot show their faith without works to others. That is what James means in 2:24 about being justified; it's in the eyes of others.
iow, no one can tell if you are a believer if you don't demonstrate it.
It's amazing that the calvinists, the arminians, and the catholics all have not figured out James 2.
The calvinists think "dead faith" means no salvation.
The arminians think that "dead faith" means loss of salvation.
The catholics think "not by faith alone" means works are included in order to be saved.
And none are right.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 10:21:36 PM
|
|
|
disciplelife
Posts: 61
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
quote:
It's not that cut and dried. Lack of actions does NOT mean lack of faith.
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14-26)
cut AND dried... no actions, dead faith (Feel that sinking feeling in your chest? It's Christ telling you he never knew you!)
disciplelife
What you apparently fail to understand is when James says "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone", he was referring to being justified in the eyes of others. God doesn't need to "see" our faith in action to know we have it.
Now, before you start spouting off about my "re-writing the Bible" just look at the argument James presents in James 2:18. "But someone may say, you have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
What is being compared isn't whether they both have faith, but rather one who has faith, and the other who has both faith and works. The point he is making is that one cannot show their faith without works to others. That is what James means in 2:24 about being justified; it's in the eyes of others.
iow, no one can tell if you are a believer if you don't demonstrate it.
It's amazing that the calvinists, the arminians, and the catholics all have not figured out James 2.
The calvinists think "dead faith" means no salvation.
The arminians think that "dead faith" means loss of salvation.
The catholics think "not by faith alone" means works are included in order to be saved.
And none are right.
I understand what God's Word says perfectly! God isn't concerned that we impress anybody but Him. You can tweek and twist it all you want, you are not going to get me to buy into your "feel-good" cult!
< Message edited by disciplelife -- 10/1/2008 10:27:40 PM >
_____________________________
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 11:44:48 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
There has to be a change of heart or we don't really receive Jesus
Gotcha. That, I agree with.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 5:21:57 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Don't buy that for 1 second :). 1st of all, It says (paraphrased) if you receive the mark you will be in the lake of fire, the second death. The ones who have the mark are plagued for 5 months. (they are alive during that time). How does this negate the mark being metaphorical language? All the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire. The "mark" should be understood spiritually to simply mean that those who are not saved carry the ownership brand of Satan. The same is meant by the saved having the mark of their Father upon them. It is language to show that these are eternally owned by God and are citizens of His kingdom.
quote:
Secondly, if you believe that then there is no chance for the unsaved to be saved because if they have the "mark" they are destined for hell, no chance, no redemption! Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying you believe those with the mark of the beast might become saved when Rev 19 says "them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
quote:
2nd you will not be able to buy or sell without it. Does that mean people at the cashregister will have some sort of magic eyes that they can see a supernatural seal on your hand or forehead. No, what it means is that God is speaking in parabolic language. The Gospel is not concerned with commerce; but, in the Bible we see examples of the Gospel spoken of as being bought and sold without money(Isa 55:1). And, of course, we see Christ parabolically identified as the "merchant" in Mat 13:45.
quote:
Interesting that they are currently testing a chip that charges via body temperature and can only be accepted and charged in either the back of the hand or the forhead, has all your socal security information/ health etc. Some goverments are in talks about using this system universal, having RFID implanted vs in a credit card or passport. The same hysteria was evidenced when Social Security cards were first introduced or even the first computers. The government actually named the giant commuter "the beast"...really freaked some people out.
quote:
I believe God's seal / mark (only described on the forehead) is supernatural as the angels have it too. The mark of the beast is a physical mark. Why is one mark literal and the other not? The Book of Revelation is a highly metaphorical book and to not read it as such is to come away with fantastic imagery but not with truth.
quote:
The lambs book thing, I only see the book of life / lambs book as the same book. Not the same since in one book names can be removed but they are never removed from the Lamb's Book.
quote:
Lastly we see other books (plural) in which the dead are judged by their deeds. No names are given for these books. Besides all these books are not literal books. God doesn't need to write things down so He won't forget them.
quote:
I do not see a distinction, biblically, there being two different "salvation" books.
There aren't two different "salvation" books. There is only one book which has the names of all those who will ever come to salvation - the Lamb's Book.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 5:25:45 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The name of every single human being was written in the Book of Life. But, only the names of the elect are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Of the former(Book of Life), as they die unsaved their names are removed from the Book of Life. Of the later(Lamb's Book), these names can never be removed. By the end of time, these books will have the same names written in them - they will be identical. Though, of course, God does not have literal books. It is metaphorical language pointing to the saved and unsaved.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
That scripture, to me, doesn't support the existence of two books. It points to the fact that the Lamb will be the on the throne of Judgment. Actually, it does point to two metaphoric books. They have two distinctly different names. We never see names removed from the Lamb's Book; but we do see them removed from the Book of Life. It is the sacrifice of the Lamb that saves; therefore, those whom He saves He preserves. And it is these that are written in "the book of life of the Lamb".
quote:
You say yourself the books will be identical and that they are metaphorical anyway... I think you're splitting hairs unnecessarily. Distinguishing between the two Books teaches spiritual principles. And, that can never be said to be "splitting hairs unnecessarily".
quote:
There is A book of Life, your name may be removed according to your actions (which are a reflection of the heart in many ways) if ever it (meaning your name) was there in the first place.
Every human being's name is in that Book. And, we see that those names can indeed be removed, there's plenty of evidence to support that. But, there is not a scintilla of evidence that names can be removed from the Lamb's Book. Instead we see in Rev 13:8 that only the saved are written in that Book "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 5:27:22 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
Salvation is not a guarantee, it is a gift. A gift which too many people take for granted. Unfortunately, people tend to want to believe that once G | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
