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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 5:33:35 PM
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dyluck
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Ok I see what you are saying. My Rebutt is that "we are saved by grace"
If you fall from Grace, you have in your own will turned your back to salvation. Now I don't believe if you have fallen from Grace, that you cannot be lifted back. It is really not a matter of losing your salvation in obediance, but turning your back on God because you do not follow the master whom you commit. "are you a slave to sin which leads to death or a slave to rightousness which leads to life?". This statement was directed to believers D4anny.
I think if you continue in sin and do not repent, you were never saved to begin with. We are not to live our life in sin, we are not carnal by nature anymore. Newness in regeneration leaves you dead to sin and alive in christ because you have been made new.
If one has not been made new, I submit they aren't saved. Now I do take a position of loss of salvation in certian cirucmstances as pointed out here:
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Many versus lead to flocks being lead away by false teaching.. But note in the verse above "fall from your secure position" This indicates to me that there is a loss of assurance. Why??? "error lawless men" - Lawlessness directly translates to practicing sin. "Men who practice sin" (error of lawless men indicates to me, men who say "its ok to keep sinning! God's Grace abounds!")
Also, how about this senario for you...
in the end times... It doesn't matter how much you love God, how much you have devoted yourself to Christ, you take the Mark, you are done for. That is certianly a loss of salvation. Why? Because you took the devil's seal. Tell me then what "seal" what "mark" can we put on now? Death no?? if your master is sin, it will lead to death. If you stumble, is your master sin? no.. BUT if you habitually, willfully continue in your sin when you know the truth, you are rejecting the santification of Jesus... See this verse again:
Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 5:51:19 PM
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dyluck
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I guess my grand stance really isn't the loss of salvation.
but "Never Changed, Never Saved"
I believe if one is completely devoted to God and are changed (not by your doing but by God's doing) as described in Romans 6 - God will not allow you to fall away. I.e. You will not be living in sin and walking a carnal life. I believe a sign of your assurance is that you natrually hate the sin you loved and love thing things of God you used to hate.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 5:52:04 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Ok I see what you are saying. My Rebutt is that "we are saved by grace"
If you fall from Grace, you have in your own will turned your back to salvation.
Why do you think falling from Grace means losing salvation? What passage teaches that?
If salvation can be "lost", what do you do with your regenerated spirit, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and your adoption as sons? They all have to be "given back", or "reversed" or "something". But, where in the Bible do we read of any of this? We don't.
Just as there is no way for human parents to "blot out" the DNA of any of their children, there is no way that God does either. If there was, don't you think Scripture would be really clear out that?
Seems to me that those who believe one can lose their salvation treat salvation as a "thing" that can be lost. But the Bible shows us that there is so much more than our eternal life that is given at the moment of believing.
If God's plan included loss of salvation, there would have to be a lot of other things taken back, reversed, etc. But the Bible is silent on any of that.
quote:
Now I don't believe if you have fallen from Grace, that you cannot be lifted back. It is really not a matter of losing your salvation in obediance, but turning your back on God because you do not follow the master whom you commit.
If you think you can lose your salvation based on turning your back on God, you have a human sin that is causing you to "lose your salvation".
How many sins did Jesus Christ die for on the cross? Most of them? Some of them? Or, all of them?
Since He died for every one of them, there is not one sin that can cause you to lose your salvation, because Christ died for it.
quote:
If one has not been made new, I submit they aren't saved.
Right. God regenerates ALL believers. But, can you actually see "regenerated DNA"? No. And lifestyle evidence is completely misleading, because there are very moral unbelievers who put to shame real believers.
quote:
Now I do take a position of loss of salvation in certian cirucmstances as pointed out here:
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
The "secure position" isn't speaking about your salvation. You merely think it does. When the believer is in fellowship with Christ, filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by the means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16), he won't be grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). Being in fellowship IS the "secure position".
If one can actually fall from one's saved state, it wasn't very secure, and God's promise of giving eternal life wasn't very meaningful, then.
quote:
Many versus lead to flocks being lead away by false teaching.. But note in the verse above "fall from your secure position" This indicates to me that there is a loss of assurance. Why??? "error lawless men" - Lawlessness directly translates to practicing sin. "Men who practice sin" (error of lawless men indicates to me, men who say "its ok to keep sinning! God's Grace abounds!")
Now, "loss of assurance" is another thing. Many believers have doubted they were saved. Does that mean that they aren't, just because they doubt at some point? No.
quote:
Also, how about this senario for you...
in the end times... It doesn't matter how much you love God, how much you have devoted yourself to Christ, you take the Mark, you are done for. That is certianly a loss of salvation.
I believe the context shows that true believers won't take the mark, so your conclusion is irrelevant.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 6:10:48 PM
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dyluck
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Ok Ok I see your point. You opened my eyes on a few things there 
I find it hard to explain on this for sure. Read my last statment just above this one (must have added it at the same time near you as I thought more about it).
A couple things I wanted to mention since you used the phrase "blot out"
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Blotted out is a removal of name in the book of life.
Names never written in the book of life:
Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Names written in it:
Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 6:41:21 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Ok Ok I see your point. You opened my eyes on a few things there
quote:
A couple things I wanted to mention since you used the phrase "blot out"
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Blotted out is a removal of name in the book of life.
The word "overcomer" is used in several ways in Scripture. Positionally, as "in Christ", all believers ARE overcomers, per 1 John 5:4, "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith."
But, Rom 12:21 says "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." does it make any sense to say this to an unbeliever? I don't see how. No unbeliever can "overcome evil with good". But, believers can be overcome by evil, when they get their eyes off the Lord, become self centered, etc.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 4:26:02 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
And your point is...? As I've frequently noted, calvinism minimizes the role of believing in one's salvation. Scripture is full of clear statements that our salvation is based on faith. That most certainly IS conditional. 2 Tim 3:15, John 3:15, Acts 10:43. My point was that your theology continues a conditional salvation just as Adam's was.
quote:
What isn't conditional is election. iow, God unconditionally chooses or elects every believer to be adopted as mature sons, and to be holy and blameless.
Of course, it's conditional - conditioned upon your free will decision. Besides "adopted as mature sons, and to be holy and blameless" is what salvation is.
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quote:
Adam lost his eternal life when he disobeyed. When you insist that you must believe first before you are given eternal life, you are faced with a similar situation. So, when one loses their faith, they would lose their eternal life just as Adam lost his.
Except you fail to consider what ALL comes with our salvation and eternal life. Only if you consider our salvation to be something concrete, like a rock, or some other "possession" can you even entertain the idea of losing it. What ALL came with Adam's "life in Christ"? It was conditional same as yours. He lost his, the same would be true of yours.
quote:
But, our salvation is much much more than that. If you know anything about the doctrine of positional truth, we have many things because we are positionally IN Christ, one of which is our election (Eph 1:4). Adam, too, was "holy and blameless before God". I agree the salvation of Scripture is better than that of Adam's...only because it is truly unconditional whereas your remains conditional as was Adam's.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 4:28:26 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
in the end times... It doesn't matter how much you love God, how much you have devoted yourself to Christ, you take the Mark, you are done for. That is certianly a loss of salvation. Why? Because you took the devil's seal. Tell me then what "seal" what "mark" can we put on now? Death no?? if your master is sin, it will lead to death. If you stumble, is your master sin? no.. BUT if you habitually, willfully continue in your sin when you know the truth, you are rejecting the santification of Jesus... See this verse again:
The "mark" of Rev is not a literal mark on someone's forehead or hand. It is simply denoting that one is not saved. We see similar language pertaining to those who are saved - "having his Father's name written in their foreheads"(Rev 14:1).
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 4:30:43 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluch
A couple things I wanted to mention since you used the phrase "blot out"
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Blotted out is a removal of name in the book of life.
Names never written in the book of life:
Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Names written in it:
Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
The name of every single human being was written in the Book of Life. But, only the names of the elect are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Of the former(Book of Life), as they die unsaved their names are removed from the Book of Life. Of the later(Lamb's Book), these names can never be removed. By the end of time, these books will have the same names written in them - they will be identical. Though, of course, God does not have literal books. It is metaphorical language pointing to the saved and unsaved.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 10:14:08 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
And your point is...? As I've frequently noted, calvinism minimizes the role of believing in one's salvation. Scripture is full of clear statements that our salvation is based on faith. That most certainly IS conditional. 2 Tim 3:15, John 3:15, Acts 10:43.
My point was that your theology continues a conditional salvation just as Adam's was.
As Scripture clearly states.
quote:
quote:
What isn't conditional is election. iow, God unconditionally chooses or elects every believer to be adopted as mature sons, and to be holy and blameless.
Of course, it's conditional - conditioned upon your free will decision. Besides "adopted as mature sons, and to be holy and blameless" is what salvation is.
No, it is something else that God does for believers, in addition to giving the believer eternal life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 10:59:09 AM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
in the end times... It doesn't matter how much you love God, how much you have devoted yourself to Christ, you take the Mark, you are done for. That is certianly a loss of salvation. Why? Because you took the devil's seal. Tell me then what "seal" what "mark" can we put on now? Death no?? if your master is sin, it will lead to death. If you stumble, is your master sin? no.. BUT if you habitually, willfully continue in your sin when you know the truth, you are rejecting the santification of Jesus... See this verse again:
The "mark" of Rev is not a literal mark on someone's forehead or hand. It is simply denoting that one is not saved. We see similar language pertaining to those who are saved - "having his Father's name written in their foreheads"(Rev 14:1).
Don't buy that for 1 second :). 1st of all, It says (paraphrased) if you receive the mark you will be in the lake of fire, the second death. The ones who have the mark are plagued for 5 months. (they are alive during that time).
Secondly, if you believe that then there is no chance for the unsaved to be saved because if they have the "mark" they are destined for hell, no chance, no redemption!
2nd you will not be able to buy or sell without it. Does that mean people at the cashregister will have some sort of magic eyes that they can see a supernatural seal on your hand or forehead.
Interesting that they are currently testing a chip that charges via body temperature and can only be accepted and charged in either the back of the hand or the forhead, has all your socal security information/ health etc. Some goverments are in talks about using this system universal, having RFID implanted vs in a credit card or passport.
I believe God's seal / mark (only described on the forehead) is supernatural as the angels have it too. The mark of the beast is a physical mark.
The lambs book thing, I only see the book of life / lambs book as the same book. Lastly we see other books (plural) in which the dead are judged by their deeds.
I do not see a distinction, biblically, there being two different "salvation" books.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 11:37:01 AM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The name of every single human being was written in the Book of Life. But, only the names of the elect are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Of the former(Book of Life), as they die unsaved their names are removed from the Book of Life. Of the later(Lamb's Book), these names can never be removed. By the end of time, these books will have the same names written in them - they will be identical. Though, of course, God does not have literal books. It is metaphorical language pointing to the saved and unsaved.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
That scripture, to me, doesn't support the existence of two books. It points to the fact that the Lamb will be the on the throne of Judgment. You say yourself the books will be identical and that they are metaphorical anyway... I think you're splitting hairs unnecessarily. There is A book of Life, your name may be removed according to your actions (which are a reflection of the heart in many ways) if ever it (meaning your name) was there in the first place.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 3:29:39 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
There is A book of Life, your name may be removed according to your actions (which are a reflection of the heart in many ways) if ever it (meaning your name) was there in the first place.
raivyne,
I have a question for you. If one's name can be "removed according to one's actions", what is our salvation based on? Our actions, or God's grace?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 3:43:03 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
raivyne,
I have a question for you. If one's name can be "removed according to one's actions", what is our salvation based on? Our actions, or God's grace?
I copy and pasted a bit from two seperate posts I've made in other topics to answer your question:
quote:
salvation is comprised of three things - Accepting Jesus, Faith and Works. Jesus is God's grace for us. Jesus taught to repent and follow Him for salvation (belief, works and obedience). It is through God's grace that we are able to live the life we should (according to His will); the life that will ultimately end with our eternal salvation. God's grace is not to be misused as an excuse for living a perpetually ungodly life.
so our salvation is based on both God's grace and the way we live. Living a godly life is a reflection of God in us and it is only through his grace that we can live according to Him and keep his commandments as instructed by Jesus.
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P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 4:28:18 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
raivyne,
I have a question for you. If one's name can be "removed according to one's actions", what is our salvation based on? Our actions, or God's grace?
I copy and pasted a bit from two seperate posts I've made in other topics to answer your question:
quote:
salvation is comprised of three things - Accepting Jesus, Faith and Works. Jesus is God's grace for us. Jesus taught to repent and follow Him for salvation (belief, works and obedience). It is through God's grace that we are able to live the life we should (according to His will); the life that will ultimately end with our eternal salvation. God's grace is not to be misused as an excuse for living a perpetually ungodly life.
so our salvation is based on both God's grace and the way we live. Living a godly life is a reflection of God in us and it is only through his grace that we can live according to Him and keep his commandments as instructed by Jesus.
So you believe that we "cooperate" with God by living a "godly life" for our salvation? Are you aware that is what a works based salvation is?
Do you understand what grace is? It is being given what we do not earn or deserve. If our lifestyle is part of our getting saved, that is works, and not of grace.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 5:11:03 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
So you believe that we "cooperate" with God by living a "godly life" for our salvation? Are you aware that is what a works based salvation is?
Do you understand what grace is? It is being given what we do not earn or deserve. If our lifestyle is part of our getting saved, that is works, and not of grace.
No I do not believe in works only salvation as I've clearly stated.
2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (2 Peter 1:2-4)
"this is a faithful sayiing, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in god should be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8)
we can only maintain good works and keep faithful by the power of God's grace in our lives.
you and I may have a fundamental disagreement on what grace is. It is not, in my opinion, permission to sin. It is what allows us to live a godly life as we constantly seek to do so and it is what will help us IF we fall victim to sin. Repeated sin and unrepented (yes there can be a process to repenting but our heart is always in repenting if we are true) sin will not be covered by grace. We are not worthy of grace because of the sins we have commited, but Jesus covered those sins with his blood.
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What if God is asking us for a sign?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 5:43:24 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
So you believe that we "cooperate" with God by living a "godly life" for our salvation? Are you aware that is what a works based salvation is?
Do you understand what grace is? It is being given what we do not earn or deserve. If our lifestyle is part of our getting saved, that is works, and not of grace.
No I do not believe in works only salvation as I've clearly stated.
2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (2 Peter 1:2-4)
"this is a faithful sayiing, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in god should be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8)
we can only maintain good works and keep faithful by the power of God's grace in our lives.
you and I may have a fundamental disagreement on what grace is. It is not, in my opinion, permission to sin. It is what allows us to live a godly life as we constantly seek to do so and it is what will help us IF we fall victim to sin. Repeated sin and unrepented (yes there can be a process to repenting but our heart is always in repenting if we are true) sin will not be covered by grace. We are not worthy of grace because of the sins we have commited, but Jesus covered those sins with his blood.
And...
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14-26)
Salvation by God's grace, faith in Jesus Christ, works after, as proof to God that we understand what he did for us.
disciplelife
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 6:59:35 PM
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dyluck
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I think that verse really explains well. disciplelife.
Understand folks there is a drastic difference between "lordship salvation/works salvation" and what we believe. works salvation and self-rightousness is BLASPHEMY!
Someone whom justifies himself with works is judged according to the law; however, when one is truly born again, God removes the heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh and took the law that was written on stone and wrote it on our hearts. This represents that following the law is no longer something we must do, but something we will do in loving obedience to our father.
Hebrews 12:4-7
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
Jesus says "if you love me, you will obey what I command" John 14:15. He did not say "you must obey may commands".
If you believe in regeneration and the complete newness in Christ when you are born again, then you believe you have been made new. You are now dead to sin and alive in Christ.
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
A lot of "ifs" to salvation... this is a small example. Receiving the gift of salvation isn't a 5 minute prayer and living like a "Carnal Christian" there is no such thing.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 7:12:35 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
i was looking for that earlier but had to hurry cause it was time to drive home! thanks :)
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ORIGINAL: disciplelife
Salvation by God's grace, faith in Jesus Christ, works after, as proof to God that we understand what he did for us.
disciplelife
Well said. Faith without works is dead.
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ORIGINAL: dyluck
Jesus says "if you love me, you will obey what I command" John 14:15. He did not say "you must obey may commands".
Most excellent.
and as Paul wrote:
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me (1 Cor 15:10)
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P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 8:43:28 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
So you believe that we "cooperate" with God by living a "godly life" for our salvation? Are you aware that is what a works based salvation is?
Do you understand what grace is? It is being given what we do not earn or deserve. If our lifestyle is part of our getting saved, that is works, and not of grace.
No I do not believe in works only salvation as I've clearly stated.
I didn't say you believed in "works only" salvation. But I think your pov is that you must work for salvation, or to maintain it.
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2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (2 Peter 1:2-4)
Nothing here to indicate loss of salvation.
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"this is a faithful sayiing, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in god should be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8)
Yes, all believers "should be careful to maintain good works". But the verse doesn't say anything about loss of salvation.
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we can only maintain good works and keep faithful by the power of God's grace in our lives.
Amen!
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you and I may have a fundamental disagreement on what grace is. It is not, in my opinion, permission to sin.
Nor mine. Grace is giving us something we didn't earn or deserve. Like eternal life.
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It is what allows us to live a godly life as we constantly seek to do so and it is what will help us IF we fall victim to sin. Repeated sin and unrepented (yes there can be a process to repenting but our heart is always in repenting if we are true) sin will not be covered by grace.
"not covered by grace"??? I wish you were kidding. Why do you think that God limits His grace? And where do you read that in Scripture?
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We are not worthy of grace because of the sins we have commited, but Jesus covered those sins with his blood.
That's exactly why there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation. Every sin you and I ever do has already been covered. But your pov says a lifestyle of unrepentant sin results in loss of salvation. You are not being consistent.
Further, if you think you can "lose" your salvation, you have to deal with the fact that at the moment of belief, God regenerates the believer. Where in Scripture do you read of that being "reversed"?
Also, all believers are adopted as sons, per Eph 1:5. Where in Scripture do you read that God "undoes" the adoption?
Finally, all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. where in Scripture do you read that God "breaks" that seal?
If salvation could be "lost" or "taken back", the Bible would be very clear that these other things would be reversed or cancelled.
But, they aren't.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 10:44:28 PM
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disciplelife
Posts: 61
Joined: 9/23/2008
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This was asked and answered in another thread (Are you save but not baptized? post #980)
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26-27)
For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12:31-32) (cf. Isaiah 63:10)
Salvation is not a guarantee, it is a gift. A gift which too many people take for granted. Unfortunately, people tend to want to believe that once God grants salvation, by His grace, that they can do whatever they want without fear of retribution from a loving, but just God. Creating your own God to suit your own purposes is idolatry. Living a continued life outside His will is a sure path to a fall from His grace.
disciplelife
< Message edited by disciplelife -- 9/30/2008 11:00:43 PM >
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 10:35:24 AM
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raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
That's exactly why there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation. Every sin you and I ever do has already been covered. But your pov says a lifestyle of unrepentant sin results in loss of salvation. You are not being consistent.
Like I said we have a fundamental disagreement. Grace doesnt cover willful disobedience IMO.
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My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (I John 2:1-6 emphasis mine)
He didn’t write, “I write this to you so that you may sin and have an advocate”. He writes that those who do not obey are liars because they are claiming Jesus is in their heart but he is not.
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But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Rev. 21:8 emphasis mine)
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"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (Rev. 22:14-15 emphasis mine)
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If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:26-31 emphasis mine)
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What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:14-24 emphasis mine)
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“Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46)
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We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. (Heb. 2:1-3)
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See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
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Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. (Acts 20:26-31 emphasis mine)
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We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. (Col. 1:28 emphasis mine)
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Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever! (Duet. 5:29 emphasis mine)
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! (Ezek. 18:24-32 emphasis mine)
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For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. (Jude 4 emphasis mine)
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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