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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 6:46:20 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Tychicus
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Free Grace: However, since you note the Greek word "paliggenesias" is rebirth, let me ask you: can a "birth" be undone? I rest my case.
Tychicus: Well, I do think most people who are born actually die.
Free Grace: Dying does not "undo" a birth.
Tychicus: But they are still dead.
Being dead doesn't "undo" a birth.
I am sure some profound theological point is being made here. 
Nope. Just responding to your comment that seemed to suggest that physical death somehow "undoes" a birth. But it does not. Once a birth occurs, it cannot be undone. That was my only point.
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Look again at Eph 1:13, "having believed, you were sealed . . .". Now, if a person stops believing then God might want to take away the seal. People can debate this issue, but you can't prove your position just by saying that the word "seal" is there, and then insisting that the word "seal" has a special meaning that you define.
My proof is the fact that you have no support whatsoever for your "might want" statements. The Bible says we are sealed for the day of redemption. What does that mean to you?
Well I already gave you the passage about God blotting names out of the book of life. And there's that section in Rom 9:17-21 about how God, just as the potter and the clay, can do whatever he wants. You might also look at the reference to the potter in Jer 18:6-10, which specifically says that God will change his plans depending on whether people subsequently obey or disobey.
So, just because the term "sealed for the day of redemption" is there, that doesn't mean that God can't break the seal, or do whatever judgment he wants when the day of redemption comes up. Who are we to limit what God can or cannot do?
As I said, you have no support for your "might want" statements. Of course God is sovereign. But there isn't any indication in Scripture that warns us that God will or even "might" break the sealing of the Holy Spirit. If that were possible, seems pretty clear to me that something of that importance would be clearly stated.
To suggest that I am "limiting what God or cannot do" is silly. Our salvaiton is securely held in God's hand, and no one (including yourself) can snatch anyone from His hand. John 10.
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 5/25/2008 6:52:32 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 11:24:51 AM
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loveineffable
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Hey all, I think you both have points here.
Ultimateley, God makes the final deciscion. I know I believe, and you all also. It is wise to be careful and study the scripture to know our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ.
Eternity is secure, yet it is not my, yours or anyone elses final deciscion, where we go, itis God's who knows everyones heart, whether they believe or not.
My experience is actions speak louder than words. Works are a byproduct of faith, showing the light of the Lord, Jesus Christ.
God himself said many will claim, and yet he will deny those that work iniquity. So really we all need to hold ourselves accountable, and search our own souls, to know God personally, seeking truth from him and him only. Then share our experiences, possobly to help others grow. Learning not to force grace down anyones throat.
ineffable love
The believers do have eternal security, the ones that God will reveal as true believers, the others shall be denied even though they claimed it.
So I think the seal can not be broken once sealed, and if it appears to be broken, think was it really ever sealed at first. In other words just because someone claims to believe does not mean they believe
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 11:28:26 AM
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Roberta_
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Hi loveineffable and welcome to the boards!!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 3:52:06 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: Tychicus
I just gave you several examples in 1 Cor of direct and extended teachings. There are examples like this all over the Bible, as well as plenty of other shorter teachings which are still very specific. I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. I agree 1Cor 5 teaches many different principles; but, so then does Heb 7, one of which is eternal security. The principle of eternal security is seen throughout the Bible. To you, this seems to be a reason to disbelieve it. Where are the "extended" passages on the Trinity?
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I just gave you several examples in 1 Cor of direct and extended teachings. There are examples like this all over the Bible, as well as plenty of other shorter teachings which are still very specific. As one random example, Matt 6:14-15, "if you forgive others their trespasses, you heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." This is short, but specific. None of the texts that supposedly support Eternal Security even approach this clarity. Actually, I don't think Mat 6:14-15 is as clear as you suppose. We must read it in the light of the rest of Scripture. If we don't, it would be teaching that the way to have our sins forgiven is to forgive others. I'm sure you would agree that is not how our sins are expiated. Many who have no connection with the God of the Bible can and often do forgive those who have "sinned" against them. So, unless we continue to compare scripture with scripture the Mat vv will most definitely lead us in a wrong direction.
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Christ is said to be the eternal Priest and of those who come to Him He is able to "saved to the uttermost". There can be little doubt as the meaning of those words. Uttermost is rendered even more strongly in the Arabic, Latin Vulgate, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions - "to the utmost perfection"; "forever". How do any of these meanings (or the Greek panteles) imply Eternal Security? Or something that cannot be lost or revoked? To quote you a little further in your post: "I am quite honestly astounded that you can dogmatically assert.." that "forever" implies something other than forever!
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Or even imply that salvation is something that we now possess? (After all, verse 25 ends with "he always lives to intercede for them" -- what is the point of that if our salvation is a "done deal", accomplished in the past?)
It is a "done deal" precisely because the great High Priest continues to advocate for the one whose sin were expiated. Is that amazing or what? Christ the High Priest offers Christ the Lamb to pay for the sins of His children and then forever lives to intercede for these!
I am astounded you cannot see that these are believers for whom Christ makes intercession - John says they are - he says of them "little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake".
Just as Christ did not fail as the High Priest and the Lamb, He will not fail as the Advocate. Therefore, those for whom He advocates will remain safe and secure in their "forgiveness".
Anyway, if He died for them and intercedes for them, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything in Scripture to indicate "these" are not saved and must remain saved. Otherwise, Christ has failed in one of His duties as High Priest - advocacy.
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I do not think it is reasonable to assume that the first century readers of the book of Hebrews were educated Calvinists. I quite agree, even the "prophets" probably never heard of him :) Nevertheless, the Bible was not written "only" to those originally addressed.
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And if they were not Calvinists, they would not read the passage in this way. I think there is no other way to understand those passages "if" we compare scripture with scripture...they perfectly compliment each other. Christ's priesthood is superior to that of the Levitical priesthood which means His sacrifice is able to expiate sins. And, His advocacy before the Father on behalf of these ensures that no charge be laid to them because all their sins have been laid upon Him. So, Calvin notwithstanding, there's little room to see these passages in any other light.
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If you have an Advocate, and yet you choose to rebel against the Advocate, or leave the Advocate, it is your loss. It is not the Advocate's fault. It doesn't mean the Advocate failed.
Not only would it mean Christ failed as Advocate; but, also He would have failed as High Priest because advocacy is united with the duties of the High Priest.
To "leave the Advocate"?...to no longer believe? What else is that but sin? What is the purpose of the Sacrifice?...to have sins laid upon Him. What does the Advocate do?....pleads the case before the Father...that this sin also not be laid to the sinners charge.
Sure, those who are truly saved can go through periods of unbelief; but, they can never completely fall away. Why?...because, to quote one passage among many, Christ saves to the "uttermost".
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 3:55:28 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: Tychicus
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I just meant that there is no clear statements about certain theological doctrines, i.e., . . . Jesus never actually said the words: "I am God". The same for Perserverance. We don't find it said: "believers can never lose their salvation".
I'd like to make a simple clarification on my previous answer to this. Although there is no passage where Jesus says "I am God", there are lots of extended passages on the topic. For example John 1:1-18, Phil 2:5-11, Col 1:15-20, and the several discourses in John 5-10. There may be some disagreement on how exactly to formulate the doctrine, but there is lots of scripture to work with. Whole passages, not just isolated "proof texts". It's interesting that right within John 1 there is evidence of eternal security. Vs 13 says believers are "born of God". Since it also says it is not of "our will" we have no input in this "new birth". It is the spiritual work of God. How does anyone "undo" the spiritual work of God?
And in Col 1:15-20, we find Christ is the "firstborn from the dead". Who else is called "firstborn from the dead"?.....believers. He is called "firstborn among many brethren" in Romans 8:29. Believers are His "brethren" and they belong to: "church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven.” Heb 12:23. The believers' names are written in heaven - that's pretty secure!
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My observations is that the doctrine of Eternal Security has no such scriptural support. I am still looking for someone to put forth one extended passage that actually deals with the topic. Do you have an extended passage that actually deals with the Trinity?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 3:56:31 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: Tychicus
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there is no passage where Jesus says "I am God" John 10:30-33 seems pretty clear to me!
That comes pretty close, doesn't it?
It is interesting that the immediately preceeding passage, John 10:27-29, is a common prooftext for Eternal Security. Whereas the whole chapter, and much of chapters 6-10 are on the topic of who Jesus is, where does he get his authority, etc. So, in verses 27-30, we see "I give them eternal life" -> "my father has given them to me"; and "no one will snatch them out of my hand" -> "no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand". The whole point is that Jesus is doing just what his Father is doing. And then the conclusion, "I and the Father are one".
And then the Jews try to stone him. It leads to an interesting question. Were they stoning him because he was claiming that he and the Father are one? Or were they trying to stone him because he just slipped in a quick lesson on Eternal Security in v. 27-29?
You seem to think that only one principle can be taught in a chapter or section of Scripture. Here is a perfect example of Christ "indicating" He is God while also teaching that believers are eternally secure.
You say the whole point of those passages is: "that Jesus is doing just what his Father is doing." How does that negate and make somehow untrue what else He says?
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 4:11:07 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loveineffable
The believers do have eternal security, the ones that God will reveal as true believers, the others shall be denied even though they claimed it.
So I think the seal can not be broken once sealed, and if it appears to be broken, think was it really ever sealed at first. In other words just because someone claims to believe does not mean they believe I agree, many who claim to be believers will be shown not to be - Mat 7:21.
As for the "seal", I agree, it cannot be broken. It is parabolic language indicating to whom we belong. We even see that Christ was "sealed" in John 6:27 "...for him hath God the Father sealed." This is the same word used of believers in Rom 15:28; 2Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30. So, if Christ's seal cannot be broken neither can that of the believer's.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 4:22:43 AM
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Tychicus
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To suggest that I am "limiting what God or cannot do" is silly. Our salvaiton is securely held in God's hand, and no one (including yourself) can snatch anyone from His hand. John 10.
Interesting, adding the "(including yourself)" to this passage (John 10:29). I am trying to come up with the sense of this idea: snatching yourself from a hand. Try to make a mental picture . . .
Of course it is silly to think you can automatically change "no one can" to "no one (including yourself) can". Look at Ex 33:20, for example (referring to God): "for no one may see me and live". Let's change that to: "for no one (including myself) may see me and live". So now, here is proof that God cannot see himself!
Adding words like this to a passage in order to prove some doctrinal point is ridiculous. There is nothing in this passage that says anything about whether anyone can or cannot decide to walk out of his hand by their own volition.
Furthermore, as noted in post 3375, nothing in the surrounding context of John 10 suggests Jesus was trying to throw in a quick lesson about Eternal Security in this passage. That would be totally off topic in his discussion with the religious leaders.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 7:40:26 AM
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Tychicus
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The principle of eternal security is seen throughout the Bible. To you, this seems to be a reason to disbelieve it. Where are the "extended" passages on the Trinity?
You are assuming that "the principle of eternal security is seen throughout the Bible". The whole point of this forum section is to have a (friendly) debate on this question, not to assume it is true right from the get go!
Now I agree that "the principle of eternal security is seen throughout the Bible", as long as you assume it is true to start with. Because there are numerous verses and words which, if understood in the right way, will "prove" that doctrine. In fact, you don't need any direct proof! Merely the existence of certain words, like "Advocate", or "sealed", or "born" are proof enough in themselves.
But if you don't embody these words with the "proper" meanings, you will not find eternal security anywhere in the Bible. At least, that's the position I am putting forth here. We all need to keep an open mind in order to have any fruitful conversation.
Re "the Trinity", that is a whole other discussion that needs to be handled a different way. I already went into the "Jesus is God" issue above. I would like to say a few things on this issue as well, but I am afraid it will throw us into a deep rabbit trail. Maybe some day in another forum. . .
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Actually, I don't think Mat 6:14-15 is as clear as you suppose. We must read it in the light of the rest of Scripture. If we don't, it would be teaching that the way to have our sins forgiven is to forgive others. . .
You response is quite enlightening. Actually I really think Matt 6:14-15 is clear: "if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." The words are simple, and the primary meaning is clear. You know that Jesus is talking about forgiveness. The ultimate interpretation can be controversial, but we can at least all start at the same place.
In comparison, take a famous "proof text" for Eternal Security, John 10:27-29: "no one can snatch them out of my father's hand". On the face of it, this passage is talking about sheep. And sheep being "in a hand", whatever that might mean. What is probably obvious to all is that it says that the Father has power to protect the sheep from any snatcher (e.g. "the wolf") who wants to harm the sheep. And, of course, the analogy can go to humans and the devil or some evil power. That much is reasonably clear. But, for Eternal Security to work, you must assume at the get go that these sheep are unable to leave the hand, even if they want to. There is absolutely no reason to think this assumption is obvious to everyone. You either assume it or you don't. If you don't assume it, this passage says nothing about Eternal Security.
To summarize, Matt 6:14-15 is clearly talking about forgiveness, as everyone will agree. But John 10:27-29 is not clearly talking about Eternal Security; only if you first believe that there is such a doctrine as Eternal Security will you have any idea that John 10:27-29 is talking about it.
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Christ is said to be the eternal Priest and of those who come to Him He is able to "saved to the uttermost". There can be little doubt as the meaning of those words. Uttermost is rendered even more strongly in the Arabic, Latin Vulgate, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions - "to the utmost perfection"; "forever". How do any of these meanings (or the Greek panteles) imply Eternal Security? Or something that cannot be lost or revoked? To quote you a little further in your post: "I am quite honestly astounded that you can dogmatically assert.." that "forever" implies something other than forever!
Christ's sacrifice is good forever, since he doesn't have to do it again. That has nothing to do with someone's "salvation experience" being good forever. These are two separate events.
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It is a "done deal" precisely because the great High Priest continues to advocate for the one whose sin were expiated. Is that amazing or what? Christ the High Priest offers Christ the Lamb to pay for the sins of His children and then forever lives to intercede for these!
I am astounded you cannot see that these are believers for whom Christ makes intercession - John says they are - he says of them "little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake".
Just as Christ did not fail as the High Priest and the Lamb, He will not fail as the Advocate. Therefore, those for whom He advocates will remain safe and secure in their "forgiveness".
Anyway, if He died for them and intercedes for them, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything in Scripture to indicate "these" are not saved and must remain saved. Otherwise, Christ has failed in one of His duties as High Priest - advocacy.
This all depends on your special meaning of the word Advocate. It is not the Advocate's job to force the client to do the right thing. An Advocate is not a psychologist or a hypnotist. An Advocate doesn't "fail" if the client runs away; it is the client who fails.
Please try hard to read this passage without first assuming this special meaning of Advocate. You will see that there is nothing in the passage that says anything about whether or not anyone can leave the Advocate or rebel against the Advocate. It is not talking about what the client can or cannot do. In fact elsewhere in the book of Hebrews there are strong warnings about believers falling away from the faith (e.g. Heb 6). This is clearly a possibility, however you want to interpret it theologically. But the point in this chapter (7) is to tell believers that they should trust this Advocate, because he is a better Advocate than the Levitical priests, because his sacrifice was "once for all" (7:28).
If they leave the faith, they no longer have the Advocate. He is still the Advocate for all those who still believe in him, and he is still a perfect Advocate. He didn't fail; the one who decided to leave failed.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 8:02:09 AM
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Tychicus
Posts: 103
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quote:
It's interesting that right within John 1 there is evidence of eternal security. Vs 13 says believers are "born of God". Since it also says it is not of "our will" we have no input in this "new birth". It is the spiritual work of God. How does anyone "undo" the spiritual work of God?
Well, here again, we see that the doctrine depends on a special meaning of the word "born". As noted above, people who are born will die. Even if you are born to live forever (e.g. Adam) you can still die. Just because the word "born" is used, it doesn't mean that you won't die.
If someone is "born" spiritually by God, then God will ultimately decide if they die or not. Just because the word "born" is used, it does not mean it is logically impossible for them to die. If they rebel against God, and get sent to hell, it doesn't mean they "undo" God's spiritual work. God did his spiritual work, and they rejected it.
< Message edited by Tychicus -- 5/26/2008 8:29:59 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 12:48:33 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
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To suggest that I am "limiting what God or cannot do" is silly. Our salvaiton is securely held in God's hand, and no one (including yourself) can snatch anyone from His hand. John 10.
Interesting, adding the "(including yourself)" to this passage (John 10:29). I am trying to come up with the sense of this idea: snatching yourself from a hand. Try to make a mental picture . . .
What is your point here, please? Do you think that "no one" would exclude yourself? If so, why?
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Adding words like this to a passage in order to prove some doctrinal point is ridiculous. There is nothing in this passage that says anything about whether anyone can or cannot decide to walk out of his hand by their own volition.
Ah, that's the difference. I do not claim that. The Bible is clear that some do "walk away" or "fall away". But, you are in error to state "out of His hand", since there is nothing in Scripture to support that at all. And even though some do fall away, that doesn't mean they lose salvation. Your conclusion is wrong.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 2:48:42 PM
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loveineffable
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thank you Denim diva, looks like a lot of things happening here, and is good to see others views, as well as being able to post what i see, w/o condemnation I hope
For we all have the right to or own opinions
ineffable love
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 3:09:09 PM
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loveineffable
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Thanks Kelman, good discussion going on here
You know there are many of us out there that think they can lose their salvation and end up going astray, leavinng the faith or finding God for the first time.
My experience was such, that i set out to obey every law written. Repented every Sunday for my sins, asking over and over again for further forgiveness.
Getting up from there repenting again, and going out into the world thinking now I can not do that again.
Well it did not take too long before there i was repenting again, and trying over and over to the point that God had to be taking bepto bismal on me by now. I had to be making him sick.
Then one day I said I give up I can not live up to these expectations, I was ready to walk away, run from God.
That is when I heard in my heart THANK YOU! I replied in my head WHAT! I heard it again Thank You, you gave up, I accept your white flag. Now I (GOD) can now perform the work, (you so miserably failed at) through you, and you can rest learning from me how to walk by faith, trusting me.
I said but what if I fail again, he said you will, but I will teach you how learn from your failures, perfecting you in me. I will never leave nor forsake you. Could I choose to leave you? Yes, but I (God) will chase you, wooing you with my Spirit. never forcing you, you are free, it is your choice.
I am only looking out for you, when you sin you are hurting yourself, when you walk away, you are only hurting yourself. I (God) Love you.
So I chose to live with God through his one and only perfect Son Jesus Christ.
I have had many tribulations, and will have more, but he has overcome the world, so I will make it through all things bad or good. And PAPA is always there for me, you, and all others that believe
ineffable love
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 8:02:03 PM
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Tychicus
Posts: 103
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As for the "seal", I agree, it cannot be broken. It is parabolic language indicating to whom we belong. We even see that Christ was "sealed" in John 6:27 "...for him hath God the Father sealed." This is the same word used of believers in Rom 15:28; 2Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30. So, if Christ's seal cannot be broken neither can that of the believer's.
Hi kelman,
I find Rom 15:28 a most interesting passage: "When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain." (KJV) This is actually a pretty literal reading of the Greek. The NIV, in contrast, does not use the word "seal".
Of course, in context, the fruit is referring to money sent to the believers in Jerusalem.
Anyway, since seals cannot be broken, do you take this passage to mean that the Jerusalem believers never digested the fruit. Or that they never spent the money.
Or do you take it that, since this is parabolic language, it is unwise to make grand conclusions, or build doctrinal beliefs, based on whether seals can be broken or not?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 11:46:45 PM
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Ezra
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But I do not see this chapter, or the book, talking about what might happen if someone were to turn away from God. Or whether it is possible, or not possible to turn away from God. These are the usual questions you ask if you are talking about the doctrine of Eternal Security. Where do you see this chapter answering those questions?
Why should this epistle talk about things which are not profitable? God hath given to us eternal life, and that life is in His Son. This is one of the most magnificent truths revealed to men.
You wanted to know where in Scripture there is an extended teaching on eternal security, and after you have come to know where it is, God expects you to study it, feed on it, and assimilate it, so that you will not only have absolute assurance, but you will spend your time on that which is profitable, and rejoice in the truths that God has revealed.
Scripture was not given for debate and endless discussion, but to build our faith, strengthen our inner man, bring us closer to the Lord, and cause us to walk in His ways and serve Him according to His will.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 5:02:22 AM
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Tychicus
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But I do not see this chapter, or the book, talking about what might happen if someone were to turn away from God. Or whether it is possible, or not possible to turn away from God. These are the usual questions you ask if you are talking about the doctrine of Eternal Security. Where do you see this chapter answering those questions?
Why should this epistle talk about things which are not profitable?
Hi Ezra,
So you agree that this epistle does not talk about the doctrine of Eternal Security, because it is not profitable. I tend to agree with you there.
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God hath given to us eternal life, and that life is in His Son. This is one of the most magnificent truths revealed to men.
I certainly agree with you on this one.
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You wanted to know where in Scripture there is an extended teaching on eternal security, and after you have come to know where it is, God expects you to study it, feed on it, and assimilate it, so that you will not only have absolute assurance, but you will spend your time on that which is profitable, and rejoice in the truths that God has revealed.
Oh, so do I understand you are actually saying there is an extended teaching on eternal security, which is the verse you quoted above: God hath given to us eternal life, and that life is in His Son (1 John 5:11). Is that the extended teaching on eternal security, or did I misunderstand you? I see it is only one verse, but I suppose if you feed on it long enough it becomes an extended teaching? I am honestly trying to understand what you mean.
The next verse (5:12) says: "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life". Are we supposed to feed on both parts of this verse, or just the first part, and not on the "not have life" part. In other words, when we read 1 John, are we supposed to feed on the whole book, or just the verses that are uplifting?
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Scripture was not given for debate and endless discussion, but to build our faith, strengthen our inner man, bring us closer to the Lord, and cause us to walk in His ways and serve Him according to His will.
I agree with you here, Ezra. Thank you for the encouragement.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 5:26:08 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
You are assuming that "the principle of eternal security is seen throughout the Bible". The whole point of this forum section is to have a (friendly) debate on this question, not to assume it is true right from the get go! All things being equal, then neither should you assume it is "wrong" from the get go.
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Re "the Trinity", that is a whole other discussion that needs to be handled a different way. I already went into the "Jesus is God" issue above. I would like to say a few things on this issue as well, but I am afraid it will throw us into a deep rabbit trail. Maybe some day in another forum. . .
It is not my intention to change the topic. I am making the point that all theological doctrines are not given "extended passages of teaching". Nor did I indicate Scripture does not teach that "Jesus is God". I said that "Jesus" never said He is God.
Apparently, we have a different method of determining biblical truth. When I read that the Father has given certain ones to Christ, that Christ gives these certain ones eternal life and that these certain ones shall never perish, I simply believe what it says and don't look for ways to disprove what it says.
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You response is quite enlightening. Actually I really think Matt 6:14-15 is clear: "if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Are you saying you think this is how one gets "saved"?....by forgiving those who have sinned against them? If someone asked you "how do I become saved", you would tell them simply "forgive anyone who's sinned against you"...and you will be saved? Someone might be inclined to give that answer only if they've never read the rest of Scripture. This is precisely why we must compare scripture with scripture to determine what is true.
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The words are simple, and the primary meaning is clear. You know that Jesus is talking about forgiveness. The ultimate interpretation can be controversial, but we can at least all start at the same place.
How is the "ultimate interpretation" controversial? And, if it is controversial, then obviously it is not such a "clear" passage.
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In comparison, take a famous "proof text" for Eternal Security, John 10:27-29: "no one can snatch them out of my father's hand". On the face of it, this passage is talking about sheep. And sheep being "in a hand", whatever that might mean. Again, you are presenting something as true when you have not proven it to be so. You have not proven Mat 6:14-15 is "clear", you've simply declared it so.
I'm surprised you would question what it means to be "in the hand" of God. Again, if we search scripture and we can know precisely what it means.
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But, for Eternal Security to work, you must assume at the get go that these sheep are unable to leave the hand, even if they want to. There is absolutely no reason to think this assumption is obvious to everyone. Rather, there is no possible reason to assume it is not teaching eternal security since Christ clearly says He gives eternal life to these that the Father gives Him and they shall never perish(John 10:28). In fact, you must assume that eternal life doesn't mean "eternal" and that never perish doesn't mean "never"; and, that's quite an assumption.
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Christ's sacrifice is good forever, since he doesn't have to do it again. That has nothing to do with someone's "salvation experience" being good forever. These are two separate events.
You have made them separate events; but, the passage itself does not. Yes, it relates that Christ's sacrifice is good forever; but it doesn't stop there. The passage goes on to say: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." This is speaking of saving individuals(them) and saving them "to the uttermost".
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This all depends on your special meaning of the word Advocate. It is not the Advocate's job to force the client to do the right thing. An Advocate is not a psychologist or a hypnotist. An Advocate doesn't "fail" if the client runs away; it is the client who fails. I have no "special meaning" for Advocate. Is it that you don't think Scripture teaches that advocacy is a duty of the High Priest? The OT high priest was bound to do two things. First, he offers the victim. Second, he was to carry the blood into the holy place and to burn incense upon the altar of incense. Christ secured our salvation by the first and He preserves it by the second.
The Atonement of Christ cannot be separated as you want to do. If you do separate the duties of the High Priest, yes, I can see that you might be able to come to your conclusion. But, the fact remains we cannot decide that Christ did not fulfill His entire duty as High Priest because it doesn't fit into our theology.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 11:25:33 AM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
If there is nothing you can do to loose your Salvation, then why has the Bible so clearly laid out how we are to live our lives?
First, let's ask a different question: IF we can lose our salvation by what we do subsequent to our salvation, what does that say about how we are saved, ultimately? I think the answer is that we must "save ourselves" by what we do. Is that what the Bible says? Absolutely not! We are saved by grace, through faith, and not by works, lest anyone should boast.
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Now, I'm not saying that if you sin you're off to hell. What I'm wondering about is a person who is willfully leading a sinful life continuously.
What exactly are you wondering about, with such a person? Thanks.
It's not what we do but what we believe or don't believe. Thus the warning in Hebrews 3:12
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
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Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 4:19:03 PM
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savedforgod
Posts: 16
Joined: 7/12/2006
Status: offline
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Jesus does say He is God: He says "I am he" and He is the great "I AM".
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 7:45:56 PM
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acontriteheart
Posts: 27
Joined: 3/6/2008
Status: offline
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I have been coming to this site for several months now. And just about every time I view these discussions it sinks me further into despair. Everyone has their "own" interpretations on salvation, theology, etc., etc. This is fine, but I just see a lot of back and forth and it's extremely confusing to me. I only want the truth, but what is the truth really? According to many of the posts here, it seems it is still unknown?
I was saved ten years ago. And filled with the Holy Spirit, this I am 100% positive. My pastor always referred to me as living the most holy life he had ever seen, yes that is what he had said. Two years after my conversion I fell into horrible sin that eventually lead back to a lifestyle of sin, as shaming and disgracing as it is. I told the Lord that I would be back one day, but I just had to do this basically. I always believed in the OSAS, and though I was never a "grace" abuser, I eventually became one. Regardless, over three months ago I started praying to God, grieving for the sin I committed after knowing him and having the powerful relationship I had with him. I'm not talking about the quick one minute repentance..."oh i'm so sorry Lord, thanks for forgiving me" and on my merry way I go..... no I'm talking about, wailing, grieving, mourning, not being able to sleep, function, praying that God was still with me, etc. I rid my life of all known sin, cofessed it and repented of everything I could. It has been a living Hell for me trying to make my way back home to my Heavenly Father. I am constantly shaken, beaten down, unsure of my salvation, unsure of God's love for me at times, and on a really horrible day that there is NO HOPE for me ever again!!! I am literally dying here inside and crying out to God, and in trying to find anything that would give me some kind of REAL HOPE, all I find on-one is that God has forever sealed my fate and wants nothing to do with me even though I desperately am seeking him with all my heart. My backsliding or apostasy or whatever many would like to call it has destroyed my life and it is my own fault, (and my panel speaks for itself...) but to tell me that the Father that I knew and loved with all my heart when I walked faithfully would just slam the door in my face now after wanting nothing more then to be restored and also never forgive me is just to much for me to bear. So according to some here, this is my fate. And if any one here is or may ever be in my shoes then there will be no hope for you either, including those who do say I am without hope because is not willing to allow me to come back now. God isn't going to be willing to forgive you no matter how much you repent and seek him. I might as well go hang myself tonight then.
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~Melanie~
Even though my leg is broke and my knees are bruised, I will kneel at the foot of the cross because I know that the only one who can heal this brokeness is Jesus
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 10:35:17 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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acontriteheart- are you saying that there are people here who say that you are not able to get back into God's grace?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 10:50:47 PM
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