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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 11:53:36 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 1055
Joined: 10/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Good post. Like any other unbiblical " traditions of men " ie sinless mary, praying to so-called saints, must speak in tongues as evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit, other non biblical heresies, ect they are passed down through families. That is why it so hard for people who believe in such nonsense to understand the truth, since many times they must first admit they were misled in their mistaken beliefs by their parents or others that they trusted.
No one, to the best of my knowledge, in recent posting history has alluded to what you are calling non biblical heresies. Referring to those who do so as nonsense, is condescending at the least and insulting and hardly leaves room for further discussion.
While I do not agree with Sammy, he has only been polite as have I to him. 
I'm sorry you feel that way. And its a moot point since unless you can show me scripture which refutes any of the unbiblical examples I gave than I am not interested in any further discussion.
_____________________________
Knowledge humbles great men, astonishes the common man, and puffs up the little man
Chubby babies rock!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 12:41:37 AM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 1055
Joined: 10/5/2008
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Solarflare - Allow me to also appologize to you if I came off as unkind. I know I didn't go against CW's TOS and attack you personally but as someone who is a proponent of being kind to others I understand I may have come accross as harsh, so I'm sorry if I did.
As a student of the scriptures I am constantly defending them from those that try " and twist them to their own destruction ". I have been in several heated discussions in various venues tonight with those that oppose sound doctrine and I let my frustrations of having to share basic Christian fundementals 101 for the umpteenth time get the better of me. Again sorry if I came across as unkind.
_____________________________
Knowledge humbles great men, astonishes the common man, and puffs up the little man
Chubby babies rock!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 1:29:07 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
Solarflare - Allow me to also appologize to you if I came off as unkind. I know I didn't go against CW's TOS and attack you personally but as someone who is a proponent of being kind to others I understand I may have come accross as harsh, so I'm sorry if I did.
Woah....just got here now. Yes, no need to be unkind and thanks for your apology. Absolutley accepted. 
Discussions here can get heated and people feel strongly but none of us are 100% correct. I was basically pointing out that we were having a discussion of the more quiet kind on this thread and trying not to generalize and lump everyone together. thanks!
< Message edited by solarflare -- 10/23/2008 4:53:04 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 4:51:16 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
I am not sure if you read my previous post but i use to be a charismatic/pentecostal until this year.In fact,i am still in a charismatic church.(but I am leaving soon).
Yup, read your posts. I grew up in a church where they absolutley did not believe in any of the gifts.....in fact they went so far as to say that speaking in tongues was of the devil. Again, I hope you understand that the Bible actually does describe two kinds of tongues. What people do with them, does not make them evil. People will always find some way to twist what is good. ie....look at all the people claiming to be prophets.
They just go on their way when nothing they say comes true....
anyway....that's for another thread.
I pray you find the answers and truth you need and desire. Sincerely.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 7:06:21 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
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Him4all
quote:
Your post makes it clear that you may not understand tongues completely. Are you aware that there are two sources of 'tongues'? One source is from your spirit speaking to God and the other source is God's Spirit speaking through us and to us. Your spirit's tongue doesn't need a man to understand it, because it isn't an earthly language. It is a heavenly/angelic/spiritual language according to scripture.
I am aware of it but i disagree with it.
"quote:
And on the day of Pentecost I believe the disciples got their spirit's 'unknown' prayer language before they spoke in an 'earthly' tongue to the foreigners (Act 2:4 their spirit and Act 2:6 The Spirit).
I disagree with you.There is nowhere in that passage that states they received two different kinds of Tongues(Translated as "Languages")
and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Now there were, staying in Jerusalem. devout Jews from many and distant lands.
So when this noise was heard, the crowd gathered in bewilderment because each man heard them speaking in his own language.
Acts 2:4-6 (MontgomeryNT)
All the passage is saying is that the Holy spirit gave them the ability to speak with "Other Languages" and in Verse 6 we understand that the men simply understood what they were saying because they spoke in their(the various men's) language.
I think that that is a key misinterpretation on your part and from that passage i think that it is clear that it is only speaking of one kinds of tongues/Language and that a language that men could understand.
quote:
It was the the "sound"/commotion of them speaking in their prayer language that drew the foreigners to where they were. It was then that they spoke 'earthly' languages under the unction of The Spirit and not their spirit.
As I said, the writer of Acts said nothing of a change in the kind of "Tongues" that was being used so we must continue to believe that it is the same as the prior "Tongues".Hopefully this is not a rude comment but i thin that you may be adding a bit more of what you believe than what scripture is saying in this passage.
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There are TWO SOURCES of tongues.
1. MY SPIRIT (1Co 14:14)
2. THE HOLY SPIRIT (1Co 12:11)
1.We can't simply pick a just like that.if that was a case,i would seek after revenge all the time(Eye or eye,tooth for tooth).So let's read the verse before that ok?
So let him who speaks with tongues pray that he may interpret.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is barren.
1 Cor 14:13-14 (MontgomeryNT)
I would have wanted to talk about the whole chapter but it would be a commentary and not a response..lol..anyways..The verse before verse 14 makes it clear that tongues are to be interpreted,even if you believe in two tongues.if I may add,notice that Paul said "tongue" and not "tongue(s)"?because he was mocking the Corinthians for choosing to speak in the false tongue that made their mind barren and thus was of no good use but neglected the true tongues that was to be interpreted so that it could edify.The "but"is very very key in understanding that verse.
quote:
1. Prayer tongues, FROM. MY SPIRIT (1Cor 14:14) PRAYING to God, as I will, for SELF- EDIFICATION (1Cor 14:4) (angelic/spiritual/heavenly language).
I have already explained that verse but I have to add that the verse says nothing of Praying to God and neither does it say anything about Self-edification and Nor does it talk about a Heavenly,angelic,spiritual language.
quote:
2. Tongues WITH interpretation FROM...THE Holy Spirit and manifested individually, as HE wills, for CHURCH EDIFICATION (unknown language to giver AND interpreter, but MAY be a known tongue of man). Tongues with interpretation is 2 gifts equal to prophecy (1Cor 14:5). ( Spiritual/heavenly but also tongues of man/earthly)
quote:
2. Tongues WITH interpretation FROM...THE Holy Spirit and manifested individually, as HE wills, for CHURCH EDIFICATION (unknown language to giver AND interpreter, but MAY be a known tongue of man). Tongues with interpretation is 2 gifts equal to prophecy (1Cor 14:5). ( Spiritual/heavenly but also tongues of man/earthly)
3. Tongues WITHOUT interpretation for ministry of the gospel for WORLD EDIFICATION. Known languages of man, unknown to giver, known to receiver (Acts 2:8).
There is nowhere is scripture that says that some Tongues are to be interpreted and that the tongues in Acts 2:8 were not to be interpreted.
let's not add anything to the bible.
But this is what Scripture says:
So then the gift of tongues is for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe.
1 Cor 14:22 (MontgomeryNT)
That should eliminate your belief on Self-edifying tongues.That is not the purpose as Paul said,but it is for unbelievers.(why?we will find out soon)
If any one speaks in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that in turn, and let some one interpret.
But if there is no one to interpret, let them keep silence in the church, and speak to themselves and to God.
1 Cor 14:27-28 (MontgomeryNT)
Notice how Paul says that that no more than 3 people in turn(why?Tongues are to edify the church) should use tongues in the Church?Is that what you/your church believes?Secondly,he says that It must be interpreted and if it cant be,people should speak to themselves and God.And the latter eliminates the belief that Tongues is/was a form of prayer.
So why were/are tongues/Languages for the Unbelievers?Because for the Gospel to be taught in the whole world,the apostles had to speak certain languages they hadn't learned so they could preach the Gospel to men of other countries.If all thy knew was their Language,then only the Jews and it's surrounding Countries would hear the gospel.
In the Law it is written. With men of other tongues, and by the lips of strangers, will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.
1 Cor 14:21 (MontgomeryNT)
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 7:24:57 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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solarFlare
That does appear to be the case in this first instance. Clearly, later on, we have this:
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
It's so interesting how this verse is used as for Tongues for charismatics but it's actually the contrary.Paul has mentioned that tongues were for men!Unbelieving men to be exact.Tongue's was to be for edification of the Church and also to be interpreted(read my response to Him4all).And notice how Paul says the singular tongue and not Tongue(s)?because the Tongue that he is addressing here is not the tongues/Languages that the Apostles used in Acts 2.But is rather a man made gibberish that men obviously couldn't understand.Paul was actually trying to eliminate this counterfeit Tongues because it was mysteries and could not be interpreted as Paul had commanded that all tongues should be.
quote:
Funny how that is now applicable to so many Christians...........unbelief is unbelief whether employed by a believer or someone who does not believe. The criteria for not believing is the same for both parties. 1 Corinthians 14:21-22
The passage in question wasn't merely talking about unbelief,he was talking about unbelievers/the Lost.
I will respond to the rest of your response later,My hands are hurting me...lol
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 9:24:08 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2997
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
rcjames:
There is a difference in a person when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, I have had many tell me they thought that it was salvation, that maybe they had not been savedd before. I discount that line of thinking, and consider them just confused because of the closeness they feel to God and a clearer understanding of their relationship with God
it is nice to hear a precherman say something like this. it was that very train of thought that - salvation comes thru baptism of H.S. proven by speaking in tongues - that basically ruined it for me when I went to the pentecostal church..... and not because it was written in some church doctrine, but because it was so ingrained into the traditional thought of the church goer.
and the great conflict was that I believe the HS was convicting me concerning this 'false doctrine', and the people claiming this believed it was the HS that gave them this bit of knowledge.
and even tho I spoke in tongues, I would never think of telling someone who didn't that they were not baptized by the H.S.
I confess that somewhere deep within me there is an anger at the pentecostal church that is probably unfair
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 10:01:40 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Sammy,
quote:
I disagree with you.There is nowhere in that passage that states they received two different kinds of Tongues(Translated as "Languages") I admit it doesn't just come out and blatantly say it. If it did that, any argument from you would be a mute point. But from the context there obviously was a tongue given in verse 4. Then verse 5 mentions the fact that foreigners were in Jerusalem and most translations allude to a break of thought and time IMO. And then verse 6 says when those foreigners "heard the noise"...noise???, what noise? The YLT translation makes it sound like they didn't even hear the disciples 'first tongue'.
[YLT] ACT 2:6 and the rumour of this having come, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because they were each one hearing them speaking in his proper dialect,
Where, do you believe the disciples were, when they first received the Spirit and first spoke in 'tongues'?
quote:
The verse before verse 14 makes it clear that tongues are to be interpreted,even if you believe in two tongues. I think it makes it clear that they CAN be interpreted, but I don't think that it's mandating it. I know that I have prayed in tongues allowing my spirit to pray to God since it knows my need better than my soul/mind does.
1CO 2:11 For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him?
If human spirit tongues is for self edification, as scripture says, then why would God give you an unknown tongue to begin with? If it required interpretation so you understood to benefit, why do it in the first place? That doesn't even make sense. Praying in tongues edifies my spirit without interpretation but it has edified my soul when I did receive an interpretation. And if I don't get an interpretation 'after praying for it' should I discount the validity of prayer tongues...simply because God didn't answer that prayer for interpretation...like so many other prayers?
quote:
So let him who speaks with tongues pray that he may interpret.
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is barren.
1 Cor 14:13-14 (MontgomeryNT) And during that time of praying in tongues, I have received interpretations...I believe. How do you fulfil that verse experientially? Have you ever sang in tongues and then received the interpretation like verse 15 says? I have. I don't mean to sound prideful, I just believe I'm experiencing exactly what the scripture mandates, and I'm sharing that as my testimony.
The above quote certainly isn't talking about a 'human dialect' tongue. It's talking about a human 'spirit tongue'. And it's talking about "prayer" to God and not 'preaching' to man.
[KJV] 1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. Notice the lower case "spirit"? That isn't The Spirit speaking...it's a human spirit speaking...in heavenly spirit language not man's earthly ones (1Co 13:1).
quote:
So then the gift of tongues is for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe.
1 Cor 14:22 (MontgomeryNT) Just what tongue is this talking about? The one that is your spirit praying that no man understands and therefore not even an unbeliever could interpret it if he wanted to? Or is this talking about the 'tongue' without interpretation like on the day of Pentecost which was a sign to unbelievers and not believers.
quote:
let's not add anything to the bible. Welcome to theology 101. I'm sure that when man invented theology (which is the 'study' of God) God looked down from heaven and said: "Oh boy...this is gonna be good." Truly knowing God doesn't come from study, but revelation. And without revelation knowledge the depths of the truth of scripture will never be plumbed....intellectually or experientially.
I know it's hard but please make a short response if possible. I really dislike posting so much. Many will only skim it and most won't study it IMO.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/23/2008 11:38:39 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
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quote:
I admit it doesn't just come out and blatantly say it. If it did that, any argument from you would be a mute point. But from the context there obviously was a tongue given in verse 4. Then verse 5 mentions the facthat foreigners were in Jerusalem and most translations allude to a break of thought and time IMO. And then verse 6 says when those foreigners "heard the noise"...noise???, what noise? The YLT translation makes it sound like they didn't even hear the disciples 'first tongue'.
[YLT] ACT 2:6 and the rumour of this having come, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because they were each one hearing them speaking in his proper dialect,
Where, do you believe the disciples were, when they first received the Spirit and first spoke in 'tongues'?
I hope that we are debating in love but how one can possibly believe there were separate tongues in this language is actually kind of scary to me.I studied this chapter as a charismatic a while back and I now study it as a non-charismatic and i simply see the same truth.
Lets break it down using you translation,shall we?
and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare
Acts 2:4 (YLT)
Verse 4: says that these men spoke in other Languages according to what the Holy Spirit declared for them to say.
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,
Acts 2:5 (YLT)
Verse 5:There is no mention of time in this so i cannot say whether it was "while or after" so and so.I find it interesting that the passage mentions the fact that men from every nation on earth was there and it leads me to think that the Lord planned and desired that men representing their nations would hear what the Apostles had to say.
and the rumour of this having come, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because they were each one hearing them speaking in his proper dialect,
Acts 2:6 (YLT)
Verse 6:And the rumor of this...What rumor?The rumor of men speaking in tongues.Clearly the same tongues used in verse 4.
There is nowhere in this passage that suggests that there were two different kinds of tongues used in that passage.The writer made no mention of a different tongues and one who has no agenda would have to assume that it is the same tongues.I'm a bit surprised that you would believe that because this passage is universally accepted as being about just one tongues by both parties.
quote:
If human spirit tongues is for self edification, as scripture says, then why would God give you an unknown tongue to begin with?
really?where?As for the question,The only unknown tongues that God gives/gave are the earthly Languages and he did so because it was a sign for unbelievers.
So then the gift of tongues is for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe.
1 Cor 14:22 (MontgomeryNT)
Perfectly as..The Gift of Languages is for a sign...
If it required interpretation so you understood to benefit, why do it in the first place?
The true tongues used in church were to be used of no more than 3 people at church in sequence and to be interpreted because it was to edify the church.The tongues used outside of church were fir unbelievers when the apostles would need to speak in the unbelievers native tongue in order for the unbeliever to understand the Gospel.
quote:
That doesn't even make sense. Praying in tongues edifies my spirit without interpretation but it has edified my soul when I did receive an interpretation. And if I don't get an interpretation 'after praying for it' should I discount the validity of prayer tongues...simply because God didn't answer that prayer for interpretation...like so many other prayers?
As I mentioned earlier,no where in scripture does is say that tongues we were to pray in tongues and that it was to edify ourselves.
quote:
And during that time of praying in tongues, I have received interpretations...I believe. How do you fulfil that verse experientially? Have you ever sang in tongues and then received the interpretation like verse 15 says? I have. I don't mean to sound prideful, I just believe I'm experiencing exactly what the scripture mandates, and I'm sharing that as my testimony.
The above quote certainly isn't talking about a 'human dialect' tongue. It's talking about a human 'spirit tongue'. And it's talking about "prayer" to God and not 'preaching' to man.
Because of my lack of truth in the scriptures at a little while back,i thought i spoke in tongues.Until i found out that it was utterly unbiblical.Experience is not the measure of truth.No where does is say that we are to sing or pray in tongues.Why would God want to have men speak in tongues anyways?Are our native tongue not in fashion anymore?
quote:
KJV] 1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. Notice the lower case "spirit"? That isn't The Spirit speaking...it's a human spirit speaking...in heavenly spirit language not man's earthly ones (1Co 13:1).
I know that Paul was referring to man,and that's why that scripture argues against you.Tongues aren't mysteries,he was mocking the counterfeit tongue used by the carnal Corinthians.
quote:
Just what tongue is this talking about? The one that is your spirit praying that no man understands and therefore not even an unbeliever could interpret it if he wanted to? Or is this talking about the 'tongue' without interpretation like on the day of Pentecost which was a sign to unbelievers and not believers.
There is only one true tongues used in scripture.And that is Languages.The other tongue was used by Paul to mock the Carnal Corinthians.
quote:
Welcome to theology 101. I'm sure that when man invented theology (which is the 'study' of God) God looked down from heaven and said: "Oh boy...this is gonna be good." Truly knowing God doesn't come from study, but revelation. And without revelation knowledge the depths of the truth of scripture will never be plumbed....intellectually or experientially.
Knowing God certainly doesn't come from "Revelation" or Study.But scripture is without a doubt the means to which God uses to save his people. NOT "Revelation".It is the Power/Mercy of God that leads men to accurately interpret the bible and not revelation.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 12:51:39 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
So then the gift of tongues is for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe.
1 Cor 14:22 (MontgomeryNT)
The following Scripture indicates that tongues are not just a sign. They are also a gift.
1 Corinthians 12:4, 7-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.... (7) Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines
We actually have different kinds of tongues AND the interpretation of tongues and they are listed as separate gifts.
The passage starts off saying that these gifts are given for the common good. Edification if you will. A gift and a sign are not the same thing and tongues are given for both and more than one kind.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 11:31:12 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Sammy,
I honestly was shocked at a lot of what you think scripture says, but even more so at what you think it doesn't say.
quote:
I hope that we are debating in love but how one can possibly believe there were separate tongues in this language is actually kind of scary to me. Fear is not of God. 
quote:
The writer made no mention of a different tongues and one who has no agenda would have to assume that it is the same tongues.I'm a bit surprised that you would believe that because this passage is universally accepted as being about just one tongues by both parties.
Universal acceptance also believes that they received tongues initially WHERE? You never answered that question for me, and it is critical to understanding.
quote:
quote:
If human spirit tongues is for self edification, as scripture says, then why would God give you an unknown tongue to begin with?
really?where?As for the question,The only unknown tongues that God gives/gave are the earthly Languages and he did so because it was a sign for unbelievers.
1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
quote:
The true tongues used in church were to be used of no more than 3 people at church in sequence and to be interpreted because it was to edify the church. That's not what the scripture says. It says only let two or three speak in tongues WITHOUT someone interpreting. Why, because if there is no interpretation then no one else is being edified. It certainly doesn't say only three CAN speak in tongues as you just said.
1CO 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.
Scripture says let two or three speak in tongues and if no one interprets then QUIT speaking in tongues. TWO possibilities as to what has happened: 1 They are obviously are only speaking with their spirit's prayer language and it isn't even the 'gift of tongues' being manifested from The Spirit for the church. 2. Or, it could also be the 'gift of tongues' from the Holy Spirit was bonafide, but the person who is supposed to be manifesting the 'gift of interpretation' from The Spirit isn't speaking out (lack of faith, fear...poor teaching ect.).
quote:
No where does is say that we are to sing or pray in tongues. NO WHERE? Please read the following scriptures.
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
EPH 5:18,19 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,
Here are two scriptures taking about singing in tongues/spirit. Both verses are...lower case...our spirit and not The Spirit.
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Why would God want to have men speak in tongues anyways?Are our native tongue not in fashion anymore? Because He gave our spirits a language that is different than our soul's which is English for you/me. Our native 'earthly' tongue is for our "mind" just like scripture said. When I pray in English my mind is fruitful/understands. But when I pray in tongues my spirit prays and my mind is "unfruitful" or 'doesn't understand'. To read scripture any other way is 'twisting' it to your loss IMO.
quote:
There is only one true tongues used in scripture.And that is Languages.The other tongue was used by Paul to mock the Carnal Corinthians. Not according to scripture.
1CO 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues (languages) of men and of angels... One group is the tongue/language of man and the other group is the tongue/language of spirit beings. No other reason for Paul to make that distinction if both were the same 'one tongue' as you believe.
quote:
Knowing God certainly doesn't come from "Revelation" or Study.But scripture is without a doubt the means to which God uses to save his people. NOT "Revelation".It is the Power/Mercy of God that leads men to accurately interpret the bible and not revelation.
Absolutely a belief that I totally disagree with. 
EPH 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
This is a prayer of Paul for the church. And I'll continue to say 'The mind of Christ does not come from study or rote...it comes by revelation.'
Sammy, it's obvious we are so far apart that I may not respond again. I asked for a shorter post and yours was twice as long. I don't have the time for this.
No offence meant, I hope you understand.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 3:34:23 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
Universal acceptance also believes that they received tongues initially WHERE? You never answered that question for me, and it is critical to understanding.
It was at Jerusalem in an "upper room" of a house.Tradition says that it is the same room as the room used for the "Lord's supper" in Mount Zion.
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1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
And that is why i stated countless times that Paul was speaking on the counterfeit tongue that these men were using for themselves and not the Church.
Why do you he said Tongue and not Tongues?There sis a clear difference by him stating that.
The "Tongues' were the Languages that God had given to the apostles a sign to unbelievers that they may believe.
The "Tongue" was not a Language but gibberish that the Carnal Corinthians were using out of their selfishness,,pride and so forth.
Lets study the entire chapter,the true meaning of the words,Paul's theme and let us no pick apart parts that we think support our views.
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That's not what the scripture says. It says only let two or three speak in tongues WITHOUT someone interpreting. Why, because if there is no interpretation then no one else is being edified. It certainly doesn't say only three CAN speak in tongues as you just said.
1CO 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.
Scripture says let two or three speak in tongues and if no one interprets then QUIT speaking in tongues. TWO possibilities as to what has happened: 1 They are obviously are only speaking with their spirit's prayer language and it isn't even the 'gift of tongues' being manifested from The Spirit for the church. 2. Or, it could also be the 'gift of tongues' from the Holy Spirit was bonafide, but the person who is supposed to be manifesting the 'gift of interpretation' from The Spirit isn't speaking out (lack of faith, fear...poor teaching ect.)
If any one speaks in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that in turn, and let some one interpret.
But if there is no one to interpret, let them keep silence in the church, and speak to themselves and to God.
1 Cor 14:27-28 (MontgomeryNT)
The fact that Paul said that "If any speaks in an unknown tongue.." should make it clear that is wasn't all who spoke in tongues.Secondly,All I was saying earlier was that Paul was instructing that only Two or Three should speak in tongues at the church and they must be in turn(verse 27) and there was to be an interpreter.lastly, without those conditions he tells them to "meditate and to pray to God silently"(translated)
These instructions are not used in Charismatic churches today or atleast the overwhelming majority.
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1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
Oh my,How could yo possibly twist this passage?Instead of picking verses,lets break it down ok?Lets use some of the surrounding verses too ok?
13 So let him who speaks with tongues pray that he may interpret.
He who speaks with languages should pray that he may interpret.why?(he answers in the following verse by starting with FOR)
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is barren.
So he was saying:he who speaks with languages should pray that he may interprets for/because if I pray in a unknown tongue(one that could not be understood/translated),my spirit prays but my mind is barren.
barren?:Is unfruitful. Produces nothing that will be of advantage to them. It is like a barren tree; a tree that bears nothing that can be of benefit to others. They cannot understand what I say, and, of course, they cannot be profited by what I utter. —Barnes' Notes on the New Testament
recap:In verse 13 he says that we should hope/desire to interpret and in verse 14 he says that we should desire to interpret/understand because if we do not understand it doesn't benefit anyone and then it loses its purpose because they were to edify people!The carnal Corinthians's tongues were the false tongues (gibberish) that didn't edify themselves nor anyone else.
15 What then? I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray also with my mind. I will praise God with my spirit, but I will praise him with my mind, also.
Verse 15. What is it then? What shall I do? What is the proper course for me to pursue? What is my practice and my desire? See the same form of expression in Romans 3:9, 6:15. It indicates the conclusion to which the reasoning had conducted him, or the course which he would pursue in view of all the circumstances of the case.
I will pray with the spirit, etc. I will endeavour to blend all the advantages which can be derived from prayer; I will unite all the benefits which can result to myself and to others. I deem it of vast importance to pray with the spirit in such a way that the heart and the affections may be engaged, so that I may myself derive benefit from it; but I will also unite with that, utility to others; I will use such language that they may understand it, and be profited.
And I will pray with the understanding also. So that others may understand me. I will make the appropriate use of the intellect, so that it may convey ideas, and make suitable impressions on the minds of others.
I will sing with the spirit. It is evident that the same thing might take place in singing which occurred in prayer. It might be in a foreign language, and might be unintelligible to others. The affections of the man himself might be excited, and his heart engaged in the duty, but it would be profitless to others. Paul, therefore, says that he would so celebrate the praises of God, as to excite the proper affections in his own mind, and so as to be intelligible and profitable to others. This passage proves,
(1.) that the praises of God are to be celebrated among Christians, and that it is an important part of worship;
(2.) that the heart should be engaged in it, and that it should be so performed as to excite proper affections in the hearts of those who are engaged in it; and,
(3.) that it should be so done as to be intelligible and edifying to others. The words should be so uttered as to be distinct and understood. There should be clear enunciation as well as in prayer and preaching, since the design of sacred music in the worship of God is not only to utter praise, but it is to impress the sentiments which are sung on the heart, by the aid of musical sounds and expression, more deeply than could otherwise be done. If this is not done, the singing might as well be in a foreign language. Perhaps there is no part of public worship in which there is greater imperfection than in the mode of its psalmody. At the same time, there is scarcely any part of the devotions of the sanctuary that may be made more edifying or impressive. It has the advantage-an advantage which preaching and praying have not-of using the sweet tones of melody and harmony to impress sentiment on the heart; and it should be done.
—Barnes' Notes on the New Testament
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EPH 5:18,19 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,
So spiritual song are now all the sudden translated as singing in tongues????That's a giant leap.Did you not read the similarities in "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs"?Lets use scripture to interpret scripture.
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Because He gave our spirits a language that is different than our soul's which is English for you/me. Our native 'earthly' tongue is for our "mind" just like scripture said. When I pray in English my mind is fruitful/understands. But when I pray in tongues my spirit prays and my mind is "unfruitful" or 'doesn't understand'. To read scripture any other way is 'twisting' it to your loss IMO.
Too bad scripture disagrees with you.I have already argued against what you said earlier in this post..
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1CO 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues (languages) of men and of angels... One group is the tongue/language of man and the other group is the tongue/language of spirit beings. No other reason for Paul to make that distinction if both were the same 'one tongue' as you believe.
Mormons,Muslims and all other false religions use portions scripture back up their false beliefs.Don't take a verse and use it for your will.Shall we finish what Paul was saying in that passage?No offense..But are you seriously not convicted about avoiding the rest of the verse?It's one thing to ignore the chapter and surrounding verses but to leave the verse incomplete is quite telling.
Lets take a look at what lead Paul to write that..
Now you are the body of Christ, and individually members of it.
And God has appointed those in the church to be first of all apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers. then workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators, users of various kinds of "tongues."
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? teachers? workers of miracles?
Have all gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
Desire earnestly the greater gifts. And yet I will go on to show you a still more excellent way.
1 Cor 12:27-31 (MontgomeryNT)
What is the more excellent way?He is about to explain in the next verse..(see what happens when you pick verses?)Also lets not use just verse 1,Lets go as far as verse 3 ok?
Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have no love, I am become a clanging brass, or a clashing cymbal.
Though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
And though I sell all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it avails me nothing.
1 Cor 13:1-3 (MontgomeryNT)
The part that you quoted seems to imply that Paul speaks in tongues of "angels" but the rest(including 12:27-31) of it that you ignored shows something else.
Paul wasn't trying to say that there was such a thing as tongues of angels or that he spoke such a language.The point was that If he did great things(tongues of angels,Prophesying,understanding all and a great works) and did not LOVE then he was just a clashing cymbal and nothing!
And what wold lead Paul to make such a statement?Because the Carnal(as he had called them previously) Corinthians that he was addressing in this passage were using a counterfeit(as the next chapter explains) "tongue" that they thought were mighty and did so selfishly and had nothing to do with Love.Why are true tongues about love?Because it was a sign to unbelievers(a loving act) and for edification of the church(a loving act).
So Paul was saying that if those two things I just mentioned were not involved in their use of "tongue" then they were just making loud noises.
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EPH 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
This is a prayer of Paul for the church. And I'll continue to say 'The mind of Christ does not come from study or rote...it comes by revelation.'
I am praying that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father most glorious, may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation, through an intimate knowledge of himself;
Eph 1:17 (MontgomeryNT)
All Paul was saying was that He prays that they would have the spirit of wisdom and of revelation through a intimate knowledge of God.How does that prove your point?
What is the source of an intimate knowledge of God?
16 Every Scripture, seeing that it is God-breathed, is also profitable for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may himself be complete, and completely equipped for every good work
2 Tim 3:16-17 (MontgomeryNT)
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Sammy, it's obvious we are so far apart that I may not respond again. I asked for a shorter post and yours was twice as long. I don't have the time for this.
No offence meant, I hope you understand.
That is ok and I am sorry that i can't make it short,trust me, that is what i want.But if we are to study the word accurately,we cant make shortcuts.
it is true,that we are very far apart,i just hope that pride wasn't involved in this debate.For if God hand not had mercy upon me and broken my pride,I am confident that I would believe in all sorts of false teachings.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 4:21:15 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm not commenting one way or t'other on Jesus' opinion on tongues, but one should not base their views of His opinion on the matter from that verse, since in all likelihood, it was not in the original autographs - that is to say, it was probably added by someone other than Mark.
And that's your textual criticism lesson for the day.
I've read several essays on the subject of Mark 16:9-20 and I'm convinced there is nothing "amiss" with them.
My favorite essay is from the Apologetic site. Prior to reading this article I didn't put much stock into the verses (or the gift of tongues incidentally. I was Baptist and tongues were of the devil... the fact that these bible verses wern't even real proved further that the gift of tongues did not exist in the modern day church). After I began investigating more I changed my tune about the verses (and eventually about the gift of tongues). The linked essay is one of the best I've read on the "pro" side of the verses. You may still not see things the way I do after reading it... but I think there is strong enough evidence presented to say the verses are not troublesome. YMMV
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 5:08:18 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Sammy,
I started to reply to your post but just 'cut' it. For one thing it's obvious to me that you need that 'revelation' that you don't even believe in. Your logic just doesn't even line up well enough with scripture to be logically consistent to me. And then when I scrolled down and saw how looooooong your post still was...I just quit. Like I said before, your last posts were too long, and now this one. It's obvious to me that you aren't 'hearing' what I'm saying scripturally, and you aren't 'listening' to my suggestions in posting. I think I'll leave you with your position and keep enjoying mine. I'm not saying I won't have discourse again, but this obviously isn't working. 
raivyne,
I tried your "Apologetic site" URL and it came up as "cannot find".
DR
Raivyne, I tried it again later, and now it works.
< Message edited by Him4all -- 10/24/2008 5:40:37 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 10:34:02 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Sammy,
I started to reply to your post but just 'cut' it. For one thing it's obvious to me that you need that 'revelation' that you don't even believe in. Your logic just doesn't even line up well enough with scripture to be logically consistent to me. And then when I scrolled down and saw how looooooong your post still was...I just quit. Like I said before, your last posts were too long, and now this one. It's obvious to me that you aren't 'hearing' what I'm saying scripturally, and you aren't 'listening' to my suggestions in posting. I think I'll leave you with your position and keep enjoying mine. I'm not saying I won't have discourse again, but this obviously isn't working.
raivyne,
I tried your "Apologetic site" URL and it came up as "cannot find".
DR
Raivyne, I tried it again later, and now it works.
No offense,but it's because you are wrong.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/24/2008 11:48:10 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
No offense,but it's because you are wrong.
Uh...no....not really. Your posts are waaay long and it is obvious you have made up your mind. So, it seems your reality is the choice you have made, but some of us prefer to stick with Scripture.
God bless you Sammy.
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) I was saying that unbelief is unbelief and not only unbelievers are like that. Many Christians cut out parts of their Bibles and say this or that is not for us today. That, is still unbelief. They read it. It says what they think it says, but they go, "No. Not for today." 
