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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 8:11:59 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Where does it say someone must believe they can speak in tongues before they do? It seems to me that many people in Acts spoke in tongues with no prompting what-so-ever.
I agree with you here MrFribbles.
In over 20 years on the mission field I experienced many many time folks in far away remote places who knew nothing of the Bible; when after being saved would recieve the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and begin to speak in tongues. These folks had no prior knowledge of this gift, and I never teught on "Tongues". It just happened.
Here in the States we seem to be in a different situation; and I contribue the situation to the vast amount of unbelief in, demeaning of, and right hatred towards 'Tongues:. The common attributing of tongues to the devil etc. So folks (both lost and saved) seem to build at least a distrust or fear of tongues. I do believe this attitude builds a lot of "Resistance" towards tongues and possibly a quenching of tongues as the Bible teaches;
(1Co 14:32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
So I agree that the Bible does not teach that one must "Believe" in tongue to recieve the gift, but I also think that fear, intimidation, and unbelief can cause one not to speak in tongues; even when the ability is there.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 10/20/2008 3:53:10 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 10:30:53 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The common attributing of tongues to the devil etc.
That attitude always annoys me to no end. Granted, I feel some "manifestations of the Spirit" aren't genuine, but I would never say someone who calls Jesus their Lord is being controlled by the devil. (well, except in the few-and-far-between category of genuine heretics/crazies. The kind that make the headlines because they're holed up in bunkers with high-powered weapons)
quote:
So I agree that the Bible does not teach that one must "Believe" in tongue to recieve the gift, but I also thing that fear, intimidation, and unbelief can cause one not to speak in tongues; even when the ability is there.
Do you believe this is true of other Spiritual gifts? Say, if someone had the gift of generosity, they may be hindered from practicing it because they'd been brought up materialistically?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 1:36:31 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Do you believe this is true of other Spiritual gifts? Say, if someone had the gift of generosity, they may be hindered from practicing it because they'd been brought up materialistically?
Well first off I do not consider generosity one of the Gidts of the Holy Spirit, but yes we all are influenced by our enciromental history; at lesst until we turn it all over to God and take the attitude that what ever you want of me; you got it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 2:51:05 PM
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Sammy_S
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Up until maybe this year,I was a charismatic/pentecostal not because I based my opinion though the study of scripture,but because I was raised in a pentecostal church.I am not just a reformed Christian...I raised a white flag on my beliefs when I found out that the tongues use in scripture was real earthly "Languages" and that Paul's instruction in 2Cor..on how to use it is easily not the way used in churches today..
There are some genuine charismatics brothers who though they are deceived in my opinion,have based their belief on scripture(though misinterpreted) but from 21 years in charismatic churches,most believe in what they believe,not through the study of scripture but by what they have been taught.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 2:58:05 PM
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Sammy_S
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BTW,when I say that i don't believe in tongues i mean that i don't believe in the gibberish used today in churches.There is no scriptural basis(at least not of my knowledge) for me to say that the real God-given tongues has ceased.
I am talking about a Jew who knew not a different language but after salvation,God gives him the ability to speak a new/different language(tongues),say Spanish?in order that he may preach to a Spanish who does not speak Hebrew..I am not sure if God does that anymore,just because others have misunderstood scripture and abused it doesn't mean i have to do away with scriptural tongues.
I hope I make sense..
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 3:56:49 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
I raised a white flag on my beliefs when I found out that the tongues use in scripture was real earthly "Languages"
I am afraid thet you have recieved some erronious information;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Does not sound like a known language to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 5:14:33 PM
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Sammy_S
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
I raised a white flag on my beliefs when I found out that the tongues use in scripture was real earthly "Languages"
I am afraid thet you have recieved some erronious information;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Does not sound like a known language to me.
Thanks
RC
Great point,but we must study the entire chapter to understand what he meant by that.From studying that topic,my understanding is that he is speaking of some Corinthians who were abusing the true Gift of tongues.
Also, i have read many of your posts and this is the only topic that I find myself disagreeing with you about..But please don't assume that my view on this topic is because I "recieved some erronious information;'.I believe in what I believe,according to what I believe scriptural not because I learned from some one else.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 5:21:23 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Well first off I do not consider generosity one of the Gidts of the Holy Spirit
This is a little off-topic, but I just wanted to say that I got it from Romans 12, especially verse 8. If you don't feel the list there is a list of Spiritual gifts, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 6:39:07 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
Great point,but we must study the entire chapter to understand what he meant by that.From studying that topic,my understanding is that he is speaking of some Corinthians who were abusing the true Gift of tongues.
Also, i have read many of your posts and this is the only topic that I find myself disagreeing with you about..But please don't assume that my view on this topic is because I "recieved some erronious information;'.I believe in what I believe,according to what I believe scriptural not because I learned from some one else.
you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it is just that that Scripture is really straightforward and plain.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 9:50:51 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Great point,but we must study the entire chapter to understand what he meant by that.From studying that topic,my understanding is that he is speaking of some Corinthians who were abusing the true Gift of tongues.
In verses 2 and 3 Paul is comparing tongues and the gift of prophecy. Rather than declare tongues to be a known language he is saying that the speaker is speaking to God and utters mysteries. Shall we remove that verse because the speaker is not described as one speaking in a language that they did not know? After Paul acknowledges that tongues is not necessairly in a known tongue but a language in which to address God, he then makes the statement that everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening.
V4. HE WHO SPEAKS IN A TONGUE EDIFIES HIMSELF. I don't have a problem with that.
Continuing on, HE WHO PROPHECIES EDIFIES THE CHURCH.
Then, he states: I WOULD LIKE EVERYONE OF YOU TO SPEAK IN TONGUES....shall we dismiss that part too? He finishes with: I WOULD RATHER HAVE YOU PROPHESY.
The reason for the comparison? Paul was insisting that whatever was done in church should be for the edification of the body. HE NEVER STATED DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES OR IT IS WRONG TO SPEAK IN TONGUES IN CHURCH.. his emphasis was on the edification of the body, not the villification of tongues.
Paul is continuing in his comparison as we read through the chapter. I would think the man would be rather upset to think he was so badly misunderstood. He would have had to put all kinds of qualifications in his letter had he known what some people would be doing with it October 20, 2008.
So, what you are calling the 'true gift of tongues' is nowhere described in the Bible, but rather something that is being passed around today as some kind of revelation.......for some strange reason I've noticed Pentecostals are using it quite a bit....perhaps a backlash of making such a fuss over the 'least' of the gifts......don't know..... I'm not Pentecostal or Charismatic.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 10:44:47 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Well first off I do not consider generosity one of the Gidts of the Holy Spirit
This is a little off-topic, but I just wanted to say that I got it from Romans 12, especially verse 8. If you don't feel the list there is a list of Spiritual gifts, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.
For sure it is debatable but as for me I consider the 9 gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 and specifically attributed the Holy Spirit to be the gifts of the holy spirit.
I consider the things listed in Romans 12 and other places to be natural abilities, learned abilities \ or personality traits and therefor gifts from God.
I consider that the offices listed in Eph. 4:11 to be gifts from Jesus Christ to His Church.
The gifts we are discussing here of course are from the Holy Spirit and are mentioned in;
(1Co 12:10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Just my opinion of course.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 3:06:09 PM
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Him4all
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MrFribbles,
quote:
Actually, I'm finding it harder and harder to feel as if I've really "done" communion with those elements, but that's 'cause I'm nit-picky like that. And really, heretical as it may sound, I've sometimes felt a stronger sense of "communion" when none of the physical elements were present, but a genuine spiritual element was, than in a church building full of people I had no community with (which is more a judgment on me than anything else, really). Me too.
quote:
Ah, a fellow brother in the middle road. : ) A great place to be...especially if you like getting hit from both directions by one/both of those in one lane or the other. 
quote:
quote:
those feelings did confirm 'the truth' at one point of my 'misunderstanding' of salvation. Do you follow me here? Not especially. Perhaps you could elaborate further?
When I was first saved I obviously felt 'gloriously' saved, born again and loved of God. But when I fell back in an area of my life, then I 'felt' like something was suddenly wrong. And there was something wrong...I was still committing a sin I'd had victory with for a time. What I didn't realize was that my spirit was still born again/saved and it/'my spirit' wasn't the problem. The problem was, my soul (mind will emotion). And the salvation of 'that part of me' is still a work 'in progress' today. But I now know it's OK for my soul to recognize and 'feel' lost...because it is. It is lost in any area that was once submitted to Christ, but now isn't. My heart condemns me justifiably in those situations (1Pet 3:21).
quote:
Where does it say someone must believe they can speak in tongues before they do? It seems to me that many people in Acts spoke in tongues with no prompting what-so-ever. I admit it doesn't. But I do believe the 'implication' is there. And I know that it was a soverign act of God initially, for both the Jews at Pentecost and the Gentiles at Cornelius'.
But neither is there any "record" of a 'sinners prayer' for salvation in scripture. And yet, that doesn't stop us from expecting it routinely when leading someone to Christ.
I know of no scripture saying you don't get tongues with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, either. And yet that is a common retort from those who don't have the 'tongues' experience. Actually, sometimes it's even a retort from people who do speak in tongues, to people who don't. They believe believe you got the Spirit/giver but didn't get the tongue/gift. I think they're a 'both/and'. And if you got the Spirit/giver and didn't get the tongue/gift what good did it do to 'get the Spirit'. I know we may disagree on that point, but that's OK.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 4:37:20 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
But neither is there any "record" of a 'sinners prayer' for salvation in scripture. And yet, that doesn't stop us from expecting it routinely when leading someone to Christ.
I believe you're making a somewhat improper connection here. One is saying that faith is needed, the other is a "formula," "methodology," what have you, for expressing a saving faith.
quote:
I know we may disagree on that point, but that's OK.
Well, a lot of that point would depend on what precisely you mean by "baptism of the Holy Spirit."
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 5:41:37 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Well, a lot of that point would depend on what precisely you mean by "baptism of the Holy Spirit."
I know that was not addressed to me, but I don't mind butting in.
Baptism of the Holy Ghost;
Jesus spoke to this in;
(Act 1:5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
(Act 1:6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(Act 1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(Act 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And the next event that mentions the Holy Ghost is;
(Act 2:1) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
(Act 2:2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
(Act 2:3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
(Act 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
So to this ole country boy; that is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit), tongues of fire and speaking the wonders of God in tongues; and the ability to be witnesses of Jesus Christ to the world.
And of course there are a few other incidences of this in Acts of which I will not mention in this post.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 8:29:51 PM
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Sammy_S
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Great point,but we must study the entire chapter to understand what he meant by that.From studying that topic,my understanding is that he is speaking of some Corinthians who were abusing the true Gift of tongues.
In verses 2 and 3 Paul is comparing tongues and the gift of prophecy. Rather than declare tongues to be a known language he is saying that the speaker is speaking to God and utters mysteries. Shall we remove that verse because the speaker is not described as one speaking in a language that they did not know? After Paul acknowledges that tongues is not necessairly in a known tongue but a language in which to address God, he then makes the statement that everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening.
V4. HE WHO SPEAKS IN A TONGUE EDIFIES HIMSELF. I don't have a problem with that.
Continuing on, HE WHO PROPHECIES EDIFIES THE CHURCH.
Then, he states: I WOULD LIKE EVERYONE OF YOU TO SPEAK IN TONGUES....shall we dismiss that part too? He finishes with: I WOULD RATHER HAVE YOU PROPHESY.
The reason for the comparison? Paul was insisting that whatever was done in church should be for the edification of the body. HE NEVER STATED DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES OR IT IS WRONG TO SPEAK IN TONGUES IN CHURCH.. his emphasis was on the edification of the body, not the villification of tongues.
Paul is continuing in his comparison as we read through the chapter. I would think the man would be rather upset to think he was so badly misunderstood. He would have had to put all kinds of qualifications in his letter had he known what some people would be doing with it October 20, 2008.
So, what you are calling the 'true gift of tongues' is nowhere described in the Bible, but rather something that is being passed around today as some kind of revelation.......for some strange reason I've noticed Pentecostals are using it quite a bit....perhaps a backlash of making such a fuss over the 'least' of the gifts......don't know..... I'm not Pentecostal or Charismatic.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 2:4-11 (KJV)
Clearly,The tongues given to the Apostles were various Languages(unknown by the apostles) that could be understand by men who spoke and understood the languages.
If we simply study the word "Tongue" in the bible we will learn that it simply means "Language".
Btw:
In the law it is written, WITH MEN OF OTHER TONGUES AND OTHER LIPS WILL I SPEAK UNTO THIS PEOPLE; AND YET FOR ALL THAT WILL THEY NOT HEAR ME, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
1 Corinthians 14:21-22
As for the tongues used today:
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1 Corinthians 14:23
Is that not broken in churches today?
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:2
The context of this passage has to do with edification. If someone is speaking in a language that is UNKNOWN to the hearers, how is that edifying? That person is left speaking to the only one who can understand - God. This is why Paul forbade speaking in tongues without an interpreter (1 Cor. 14:28).
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God
1 Cor 14:27-28 (KJV)
This passage is from Paul addressing the Church,it is clear in this passage that Tongues was for edification of the church and that it must be interpreted!Tongues is not for personal prayer,It is for the edification of the Church.And no more than three people should speak in tongues at the same time..
The Tongues n scripture are very different from the tongues used today in churches.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 10:26:01 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
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quote:
that is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit), tongues of fire and speaking the wonders of God in tongues; and the ability to be witnesses of Jesus Christ to the world.
Do you believe that all those elements must be present, or is it it an "and/or" situation?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 8:26:47 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5775
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
that is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit), tongues of fire and speaking the wonders of God in tongues; and the ability to be witnesses of Jesus Christ to the world.
Do you believe that all those elements must be present, or is it it an "and/or" situation?
I have known many folks that I personally considered to be baptized in the Holy Spirit that did not speak in tongue; probable for some of the reasons discussed earlier.
I have only witnessed tongues of fire once in 45 years of ministry.
There is a difference in a person when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, I have had many tell me they thought that it was salvation, that maybe they had not been savedd before. I discount that line of thinking, and consider them just confused because of the closeness they feel to God and a clearer understanding of their relationship with God (Possibly a grerater faith than they had before???).
Something has changed between the Scriptural descriptions of being saved, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the outburst of magnifying God, the dedication to the Lord and the believers Sanctification; and what seems to be the accepted standard of "Salvation". That being in most cases repeating a prayer, or crying out to God during a time of extreme sorrow or guilt, and then the attitude of "Now I am saved, and nothing can interfere with that". Something has changed, and it ain't God.
It should be now just as it was in the book of Acts, but sadly in most cases it is not.
Interesting note; when I was on the mission field in very remote places, many where the folks had never heard the Gospel; the reaction to the Gospel and the baptism of the Holy Spirit was as it is in Scripture. And again that is without me teaching of tongues or teaching on the Holy Spirit; it just happened.
The more sophisticated an area is, the more "Churched" an area is; the farther away from the Book of Acts it becomes.
Sad but true.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 12:29:05 PM
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Him4all
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Sammy_S,
Your post makes it clear that you may not understand tongues completely. Are you aware that there are two sources of 'tongues'? One source is from your spirit speaking to God and the other source is God's Spirit speaking through us and to us. Your spirit's tongue doesn't need a man to understand it, because it isn't an earthly language. It is a heavenly/angelic/spiritual language according to scripture.
And on the day of Pentecost I believe the disciples got their spirit's 'unknown' prayer language before they spoke in an 'earthly' tongue to the foreigners (Act 2:4 their spirit and Act 2:6 The Spirit). It was the the "sound"/commotion of them speaking in their prayer language that drew the foreigners to where they were. It was then that they spoke 'earthly' languages under the unction of The Spirit and not their spirit.
There are TWO SOURCES of tongues.
1. MY SPIRIT (1Co 14:14)
2. THE HOLY SPIRIT (1Co 12:11)
There are THREE PURPOSSES of tongues.
1. Self edification. (1Cor 14:4)
2. Church edification. (1Cor 14:4, 5)
3. World edification. (Acts 2:8)
There are three categories of tongues with three purposes.
1. Prayer tongues, FROM. MY SPIRIT (1Cor 14:14) PRAYING to God, as I will, for SELF- EDIFICATION (1Cor 14:4) (angelic/spiritual/heavenly language).
2. Tongues WITH interpretation FROM...THE Holy Spirit and manifested individually, as HE wills, for CHURCH EDIFICATION (unknown language to giver AND interpreter, but MAY be a known tongue of man). Tongues with interpretation is 2 gifts equal to prophecy (1Cor 14:5). ( Spiritual/heavenly but also tongues of man/earthly)
3. Tongues WITHOUT interpretation for ministry of the gospel for WORLD EDIFICATION. Known languages of man, unknown to giver, known to receiver (Acts 2:8).
quote:
The Tongues in scripture are very different from the tongues used today in churches. While I don't totally disagree with your quote, I hope the above helps you understand why I don't totally agree with you, either. I hope you study what I've said because I think you have some truth, but I think you're also a bit short, based upon the points I've made above. 
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 1:42:44 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Hi Sammy...I'll address your response:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 2:4-11 (KJV)
Clearly,The tongues given to the Apostles were various Languages(unknown by the apostles) that could be understand by men who spoke and understood the languages.
That does appear to be the case in this first instance. Clearly, later on, we have this:
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
If we simply study the word "Tongue" in the bible we will learn that it simply means "Language".
Uh huh...then how do you account for Paul writing the above? Why does he say IN THE SPIRIT HE SPEAKETH MYSTERIES. Even if you believe that it could be a tongue from another country and not known, how do you account for people speaking in a language completely not understood by others and therefore, not interpreted according to Acts?:
Btw:In the law it is written, WITH MEN OF OTHER TONGUES AND OTHER LIPS WILL I SPEAK UNTO THIS PEOPLE; AND YET FOR ALL THAT WILL THEY NOT HEAR ME, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
Funny how that is now applicable to so many Christians...........unbelief is unbelief whether employed by a believer or someone who does not believe. The criteria for not believing is the same for both parties. 1 Corinthians 14:21-22
As for the tongues used today:
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1 Corinthians 14:23
Paul did not say do not speak in tongues....he simply said do not all do it at once. Proper examination of the terminolgy used here and a good understanding of English will bear that up. Further examination of the Scripture will confer. Does Paul write ANYWHERE, don't speak in tongues?
No, actually he states I wish you all would speak in tongues. He also wishes all would prophesy. Paul is simply trying to establish order with the proper use of tongues, he does not condemn it or the use of it. To say otherwise is totally illogical and shows a misunderstanding of the verses quoted.
Is that not broken in churches today? Is what not broken in churches today?
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:2
The context of this passage has to do with edification. If someone is speaking in a language that is UNKNOWN to the hearers, how is that edifying? That person is left speaking to the only one who can understand - God. This is why Paul forbade speaking in tongues without an interpreter (1 Cor. 14:28).
That is very confusing. Your interpretation is incorrect. Why would Paul state this concernining speaking in an unknown tongue is V4. HE WHO SPEAKS IN A TONGUE EDIFIES HIMSELF. What Paul is referring to when he says don't speak in tongues without an interpretation is the instance of one addressing the congregation. He is not addressing those praying.
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God
1 Cor 14:27-28 (KJV)
Well that's fine I'm sure, but not even close to the discussion at hand. Paul is talking about interpretation of tongues. When a person is addressing God and is not interpreting, that is a complety different matter which is why is is not addressed in this verse. These are two different matters. Not the same.
This passage is from Paul addressing the Church,it is clear in this passage that Tongues was for edification of the church and that it must be interpreted!Tongues is not for personal prayer,It is for the edification of the Church.And no more than three people should speak in tongues at the same time...
Once again, that is just not what Scripture indicates. Scripture indicates otherwise and I have covered it above so please refer to it for the response on this point..
The Tongues n scripture are very different from the tongues used today in churches.
How can you possibly make that statement? Were you there? How do you know that? That would be impossible to prove.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 1:50:59 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
The Tongues in scripture are very different from the tongues used today in churches. While I don't totally disagree with your quote, I hope the above helps you understand why I don't totally agree with you, either. I hope you study what I've said because I think you have some truth, but I think you're also a bit short, based upon the points I've made above.
DR
Hi Him4All....excellent post.but one point.......I don't think anyone can say with certainty that tongues today are not the same as those described in the Bible as none of us was there to confirm that. Thanks 
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 5:39:59 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hello Solarflare,
You too, did an excellent job of explaining 'point by point'. Hopefully Sammy sees our posts as an opportunity for seeking greater truth and not just an opportunity to defend his current understanding.
My comment concerning 'tongues in the church today' may have been a little ambiguous. What I mean is this: I think that today we have a lot of people jumping up and 'praying' out loud to the congregation, not realizing that it's 'their spirit's prayer tongue' that they've yielded to, and not a tongue which is 'unctioned' by The Holy Spirit. So I wasn't really talking about 'different' tongues today than were possibly spoken in the NT. I don't know if you agree with that, but that's what I was thinking when I posted.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 5:41:15 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Totally agree. Thanks for clarifying!!!
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 6:13:38 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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HIM4all
quote:
You too, did an excellent job of explaining 'point by point'. Hopefully Sammy sees our posts as an opportunity for seeking greater truth and not just an opportunity to defend his current understanding.
I will reply shortly,but I must say that I love that sentence!It;s my prayer that pride is excluded in my quest for truth and I hope that as I read your post and Solar's as well that I agree with you on that which I find to be biblical and disagree with you on that which is unbiblical.
I hope that you may have the same feeling towards my response.
Before I go,i must say that it was the Grace of God in enabling me to lay aside my pride and what I had been taught from childhood to believe that the tongues used today in churches are unbiblical.
I am not sure if you read my previous post but i use to be a charismatic/pentecostal until this year.In fact,i am still in a charismatic church.(but I am leaving soon).
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Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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