|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2006 6:54:18 PM
|
|
|
Bible Thumper
Posts: 9
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
|
Sooner:
Interesting quote. It comes from Eusebius who is supposedly quoting Josephus but I have read Josephus quite thoroughly and do not remember him saying that. I could be wrong. Josephus does mention the Roman standards in the Temple in 70 AD but, to my knowledge, does not call that "the abomination of desolation". If he does say this, I would be interested in the source.
BT
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2006 9:52:17 PM
|
|
|
sooner
Posts: 132
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Sooner:
Interesting quote. It comes from Eusebius who is supposedly quoting Josephus but I have read Josephus quite thoroughly and do not remember him saying that. I could be wrong. Josephus does mention the Roman standards in the Temple in 70 AD but, to my knowledge, does not call that "the abomination of desolation". If he does say this, I would be interested in the source.
BT
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm
CHAPTER 6.
HOW THE ROMANS CARRIED THEIR ENSIGNS TO THE TEMPLE, AND MADE JOYFUL ACCLAMATIONS TO TITUS. THE SPEECH THAT TITUS MADE TO THE JEWS WHEN THEY MADE SUPPLICATION FOR MERCY. WHAT REPLY THEY MADE THERETO; AND HOW THAT REPLY MOVED TITUS'S INDIGNATION AGAINST THEM.
1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple (24) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator (25) with the greatest acclamations of joy. And now all the soldiers had such vast quantities of the spoils which they had gotten by plunder, that in Syria a pound weight of gold was sold for half its former value. But as for those priests that kept themselves still upon the wall of the holy house, (26) there was a boy that, out of the thirst he was in, desired some of the Roman guards to give him their right hands as a security for his life, and confessed he was very thirsty. These guards commiserated his age, and the distress he was in, and gave him their right hands accordingly. So he came down himself, and drank some water, and filled the vessel he had with him when he came to them with water, and then went off, and fled away to his own friends; nor could any of those guards overtake him; but still they reproached him for his perfidiousness. To which he made this answer: "I have not broken the agreement; for the security I had given me was not in order to my staying with you, but only in order to my coming down safely, and taking up some water; both which things I have performed, and thereupon think myself to have been faithful to my engagement." Hereupon those whom the child had imposed upon admired at his cunning, and that on account of his age. On the fifth day afterward, the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death.
Here are what some commentators say:
John Gill
Mat 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,.... From signs, Christ proceeds to the immediate cause of the destruction of Jerusalem; which was, "the abomination of desolation", or the desolating abomination; or that abominable thing, which threatened and brought desolation upon the city, temple, and nation: by which is meant, not any statue placed in the temple by the Romans, or their order; not the golden eagle which Herod set upon the temple gate, for that was before Christ said these words; nor the image of Tiberius Caesar, which Pilate is said to bring into the temple; for this, if true, must be about this time; whereas Christ cannot be thought to refer to anything so near at hand; much less the statue of Adrian, set in the most holy place, which was an hundred and thirty years and upwards, after the destruction of the city and temple; nor the statue of Titus, who destroyed both, which does not appear: ever to be set up, or attempted; nor of Caligula, which, though ordered, was prevented being placed there: but the Roman army is designed; see Luk_21:20 which was the ëðó ù÷åöéí îùîí, "the wing", or "army of abominations making desolate", Dan_9:27. Armies are called wings, Isa_8:8 and the Roman armies were desolating ones to the Jews, and to whom they were an abomination; not only because they consisted of Heathen men, and uncircumcised persons, but chiefly because of the images of their gods, which were upon their ensigns: for images and idols were always an abomination to them; so the "filthiness" which Hezekiah ordered to be carried out of the holy place, 2Ch_29:5 is by the Targum called, øéçå÷à, "an abomination"; and this, by the Jewish writers (w), is said to be an idol, which Ahaz had placed upon the altar; and such was the abomination of desolation, which Antiochus caused to be set upon the altar:
"Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;'' (1 Maccabees 1:54)
And so the Talmudic writers, by the abomination that makes desolate, in Dan_12:11 to which Christ here refers, understand an image, which they say (x) one Apostomus, a Grecian general, who burnt their law, set up in the temple. Now our Lord observes, that when they should see the Roman armies encompassing Jerusalem, with their ensigns flying, and these abominations on them, they might conclude its desolation was near at hand; and he does not so much mean his apostles, who would be most of them dead, or in other countries, when this would come to pass; but any of his disciples and followers, or any persons whatever, by whom should be seen this desolating abomination,
Albert Barnes
Mat 24:15 -
The abomination of desolation - This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Act_10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luk_21:20. The Roman army is further called the “abomination” on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors.
Spoken of by Daniel the prophet - Dan_9:26-27; Dan_11:31; Dan_12:11, see the notes at those passages.
Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not,” meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed “holy,” Mat_4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus relates that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, and placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there, “Jewish Wars,” b. 6 chapter 6, section 1.
Adam Clarke
Mat 24:15 -
The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk_21:20, Luk_21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar_13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2006 11:10:34 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sooner
quote:
Zach:
I do not want to get into a debate with you but I am curious about this reference to Eusebius. Can you give me the exact location of the quote?
BOOK III, CHAPTER V.
The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.
But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.
And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men. But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus (1).
But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem "as in a prison," to use his own words. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Savior and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up "as in a prison," they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
Greetings,
From what was given to me from the Spiritual aspect of this narration in the writings of Eusebius, all these things mentioned above were already prophesied and fulfilled “on” the cross by Jesus, up and until Jesus said, “it is finished.”
When Jesus said "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? ?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" 47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!"
In that very section of scripture is not Jesus calling out for himself, it is a prophecy!
“Why have You forsaken Me” it is that cry of what is to come, speaking of the Jews.
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was “darkness over all the land”. = 3000 years form the sixth to the ninth
From the sixth to the ninth is also speaking of the three weeks leading to the ninth of Av when the Romans seized Jerusalem to the Fall of Jerusalem.
This prophecy is as simple as the interpretations as given to the temple priests, as the light (Jesus) shines from the Golden Lampstand and illuminates the breastplate of the priest.
We are now priests and should know how to interpret prophetic scripture by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Revelation 21:9-27
the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
Sixth = Sardius, The Sardius Stone - Elohim, the very first name of God used in the original context of Scripture.
Ninth = Topaz: Gem of the Setting Sun
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was “darkness over all the land” = Setting Sun (Romans 11:8)
Paul Romans 11:1-32
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!
For I also am an “Israelite”, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day." 9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always." 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
When Jesus said "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? ?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" 47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!"
45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" 47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!" 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink. 49 The rest said, "Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him."
Elijah according to the Hebraic prophesy in the last days, Elijah Eliyahu Ha-Navi will come first
Elijah Cup is the fifth ceremonial cup of wine poured during the family Seder dinner on Passover (Pesah).
It is left untouched in honour of Elijah, who, according to tradition, will arrive one day as an unknown guest to herald the advent of the Messiah.
During the Seder dinner, biblical verses are read while the door is briefly opened to welcome Elijah.
It was not valid to expect the Tribulation to occur in the year 1000, or any year between 70AD to 1948. The State of Israel did not exist for the fifth ceremonial cup to be fulfilled.
The end time prophecy of Daniel concerning the reinstated Jewish sacrifice can not be fulfilled by events taking place anywhere else but the Jerusalem Temple Mount.
Apocalyptic prophecy simply could not have been fulfilled prior to “THIS GENERATION”.
In Israel, preparations have already been made for the prophetic rebuilding of a Jewish temple, which has not existed for 1,926 years. Such websites as templemount.org catalog the efforts of many towards this end.
Elijah will come back on Passover in fulfillment of Jewish expectations & prophecy.
Elijah will decry the antichrist for 1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Luke 4:25
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
“before the coming” of the great and dreadful day of the LORD -Malachi 4:1-5
Luke 9:54-56 is a direct rebuke that the “day of the Lord” was fulfilled in 70 AD
54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." …
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2006 11:33:53 PM
|
|
|
bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
Status: offline
|
Loyal Gypsy: You have just suceeded turning prophecy into Bible code instead of the reading it and what it says is what it means. The book of Luke in fact solidifies that what Christ and Paul and John spoke of was fulfilled in 70 A.D. All of Christ's death on the cross from no broken bones to his cry of "My God, My God Why have you forsaken me " is a exact fulfillment word for word of the prophecy in the O.T. Why wouldn't the prophecies of Matthew, Mark, Luke and Revelation be fulfilled word for wordd as well. I believe it was in 70 A.D. and Josephus has well given this creedence in the writing of the history.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2006 12:57:57 PM
|
|
|
Bible Thumper
Posts: 9
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
|
Sooner:
The quotations you gave prove that Gill, Barnes and Clarke believed that the abomination of desolation took place in 70 AD but Josephus does NOT to me knowledge use that specific phrase with regard to 70 AD, as Eusebius claims.
BT
|
|
|
|
|
RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/22/2006 4:37:08 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: larrysawhill
I believe Nero is the best choice for the fulfillment of this. J. Stuart Russell gives a convincing argument for this. I agree with him that a Roman is much more likely than a Jew. For a while I was considering one of the rebel leaders as a good choice. The only two that could be seriously considered is John of Gishala or Simon. But according to Josephus John was put in prison and Simon was reserved for triumph to be killed later, and this does not sound like it would be the fulfillment. The thing that keeps me from completely accepting the Nero fulfillment is the part about the man of sin sitting in the temple. Do you have any ideas about this?
Greetings,
“The part about the man of sin sitting in the temple”
A man is considered one who submits to God and sitting is a sign of authority. Yet in the Jewish bar mitzvah becoming a Man at 13
Why does a boy become a man at age 13?
The concept that manhood begins at age 13 is deduced by the Rabbis from the story of Dinah in Gen. 34, where it says (v.25) that Dinah’s brothers Simeon and Levi took “each man his sword” and attacked the city where Dinah was a captive. At that time, Levi was just 13, so we see that a boy of 13 is called a man. In Judaism, a boy becomes responsible for observing all the commandments when he reaches the age of 13; he is therefore called “bar mitzvah” — “subject to commandment”. At that point he is no longer legally a minor and is personally accountable for his deeds. However, according to the Talmud (Shabbos 89b), Divine punishment for a boy’s sins is postponed until he reaches the age of 20, possibly to give him a chance to repent and reform.
It looks like in order to be called a man one must be accountable according to the commandants.
The consequences thereof are only imputed after the age of 20. So the Anti-Christ is most likely going to be a Jew or a fallen Christian or a convert to Judaism.
John 5:43
I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
I do not believe Jesus is speaking of a Gentile in John 5:43 “if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.”
I found this to be very interesting
Most Reform and some Conservative congregations in the United States call their house of worship a "temple," although Reform Jews in the United Kingdom do not.
A synagogue is a type of Temple and the practices therein are likened to the activities of the Holy Temple, however for a man to sit in the temple suggests authority so this temple must be the temple in Jerusalem.
There is no authority for Jews to sacrifice in any synagogue, therefore if one was to sit in the Temple that depicts a level of authority, and for this authority to do so, only exists in Jerusalem, in the one that will be built.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/22/2006 4:49:57 PM
|
|
|
sooner
Posts: 132
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Sooner:
The quotations you gave prove that Gill, Barnes and Clarke believed that the abomination of desolation took place in 70 AD but Josephus does NOT to me knowledge use that specific phrase with regard to 70 AD, as Eusebius claims.
I'm not sure Josephus was even aware of Matt 24. The question is not whether Josephus believes an event was a fulfillment of NT prophecies, but whether he records events that fit NT prophecies. What does the "abomination of desolation" mean. You must find out its historical meaning to the Jews to whom it was written. There you will find the reason that those pre-Darby(Gill, Clarke, Barnes, Henry, etc) understood it to be fulfilled in the events of AD70.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2006 4:59:02 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bible Thumper
Sooner:
The quotations you gave prove that Gill, Barnes and Clarke believed that the abomination of desolation took place in 70 AD but Josephus does NOT to my knowledge use that specific phrase with regard to 70 AD, as Eusebius claims.
BT
Greetings,
One can follow a trail..so to speak!
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Maimonides.html
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2006 6:52:16 PM
|
|
|
Mr.
Posts: 1484
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
Interesting that you brought up Maimonides LoyalGypsy. I had asked some questions a long time back, I don't think there has yet been a reply.
http://www.faithcommunitynetwork.com/m_99113/mpage_1/tm.htm#99113
My reason for referring back to that old post was because of what I found concering a resurrection 40 years after the Messiah was to come.
When I made that post preterism was still sort of new to me.
_____________________________
God is love
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2006 8:16:04 PM
|
|
|
Bible Thumper
Posts: 9
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure Josephus was even aware of Matt 24. The question is not whether Josephus believes an event was a fulfillment of NT prophecies, but whether he records events that fit NT prophecies. What does the "abomination of desolation" mean.
Josephus may not have read Matthew 24. I was simply following up on your first post. You said that Eusebius called the events of 70 AD "the abomination of desolation". I haveread Josephus and he makes no such claim, although he writes extensively about the events of 70 AD and is the only historian of the time to do so. My conclusion until proven otherwise is that Eusebius is simply mistaken when he says this. Gill, Clarke and others may believe this anyway and that is there prerogative as preterist interpreters but Josephus does not say this. While he may not have read Matthew 24, the phrase "abomination of desolation did not originate in Matthew but in the Bok of Daniel. He would have been familiar with the concept if he knew his Jewish Bible.
BT
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2006 8:50:47 PM
|
|
|
Mr.
Posts: 1484
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bible Thumper
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure Josephus was even aware of Matt 24. The question is not whether Josephus believes an event was a fulfillment of NT prophecies, but whether he records events that fit NT prophecies. What does the "abomination of desolation" mean.
Josephus may not have read Matthew 24. I was simply following up on your first post. You said that Eusebius called the events of 70 AD "the abomination of desolation". I haveread Josephus and he makes no such claim, although he writes extensively about the events of 70 AD and is the only historian of the time to do so. My conclusion until proven otherwise is that Eusebius is simply mistaken when he says this. Gill, Clarke and others may believe this anyway and that is there prerogative as preterist interpreters but Josephus does not say this. While he may not have read Matthew 24, the phrase "abomination of desolation did not originate in Matthew but in the Bok of Daniel. He would have been familiar with the concept if he knew his Jewish Bible.
BT
BT, the reason why Eusebius was brought up was because of Cameron's comment to bygrace:
quote:
quote:
Cameron: I think you had better reread the early church fathers as 70 A.D. is mentioned as an important period.
Prove it.
Then I happened to mention Eusebius. That was the reason for bringing up Eusebius. It wasn't about Josephus, but about what those in the earlier days of the church believed. I'm sure we can all do more research in the writings of the early church "fathers" to see what else they had to say. I just gave Eusebius as an example to show that not all those in the early church believed that everything concerning Rev, or the Olivet Discourse is all to be fulfilled in the future.
Concerning Josephus, I believe sooner has given a good enough explanation. It's not about what unbelievers think about the events that they witnessed, it's about how believers see the words of Christ being fulfilled. You may watch the tv today and see unbelievers reporting the news, and the things which they report you may believe would be "signs" proving that we are living in the last days. Just because these unbelievers give you information in which you interpret as a fulfillment of Jesus' words doesn't mean that they have to call these things a fulfillment of prophecy. They can just simply report the facts. Other people can determine if it fulfills prophecy. If Josephus believed that those things were a fulfillment of prophecy, perhaps he would be led to the conclusion that his Messiah had already come. I'm not aware of him converting to Christianity, maybe you can point this out if he did since I believe you said that you have read his through enough of his works.
_____________________________
God is love
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2006 10:08:07 PM
|
|
|
sooner
Posts: 132
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Josephus may not have read Matthew 24. I was simply following up on your first post. You said that Eusebius called the events of 70 AD "the abomination of desolation".
Not me, I just provided the links.
quote:
Gill, Clarke and others may believe this anyway and that is there prerogative as preterist interpreters but Josephus does not say this.
Gill is hardly a preterist. Though he did believe much of the Olivet Discourse referred to AD70.
quote:
While he may not have read Matthew 24, the phrase "abomination of desolation did not originate in Matthew but in the Bok of Daniel. He would have been familiar with the concept if he knew his Jewish Bible.
He also would have been familiar with the abomination of Antiochus in 165BC.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2006 1:58:27 PM
|
|
|
Hattie4Him
Posts: 1334
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Could you explain how any postmills warped your faith or mistreated you. Since Postmills believe the world to be getting better and better I am having a hard time picturing how you could have been mistreated. .
Post #135 was an over-all view of the Church. This is the rest of the story; answer to your puzzlement and question:
When I was growing up---as my 21 year old grandson says,
"Back in the day" (I'll be 65 in June) ---there were only three (3) groups. Two (2) were Religious, and the other atheist. There were no---Historical/confessional post-mill, (Partial) Preterists, (Hyper/full) Preterists [pantelists]; Nor A-mil, Post-mil, Pre-mil, Pre-or mid-trib., Pre-rapture, or whatever else; that I ever heard of. The Religious groups were:
1.) Reformed, which included, some Catholics (??), Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodist (Debbie, maybe not in the 1600's, but in the 1800's---See link:
http://www.creeds.net/reformed/cmwales/main.htm
2.) All others were called "Cult" Religions; which included most Catholics (??), Baptist, Pentecostals, and down or up the list of all other denominational and non-denominational groups.
I never heard of the break-downs of; Preterists; Partical, full, or otherwise; Nor the Mills; Post-mil, Pre-mil, or otherwise; Until I got here, 8 plus yeas ago; and I'm still trying to understand where everyone is coming from in these things---they make little to no sense to me.
Anyway, growing-up I was taught the Creeds; one of them; 'The Apostle's Creed' contains these words, "I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting."
My earthly father who was raised in the Church and considered: a pillar of the community, and held in the highest esteem by everyone who knew him was; from a young man, in 3 different churches, over the years--- Church Organist, Piano Player for Sunday school, Sunday School Teacher, Treasurer, On the Board of Trustees, Deacon, and President of the men's club, among other things, until well into his 80's. He was considered the finest example of what a 'Christian man' should be. BUT, at home behind closed doors he was the most prejudice, mean spirited, filthy mouthed, back-biting, beer alcoholic (among other things) man that I have ever knew. He hated all Catholics, and everyone (Person and Religion) Not Reformed; everyone (people) in what he considered to be "cult" religions. Although he was a Sunday school teacher I never once in my whole life seen him pick up a Bible to read; but he did read other men's writings; for teaching his Sunday school classes.
Sunday morning he stood up in Church and recited the 'The Apostle's Creed' like he loved everyone; but he never used the words "holy catholic Church", he said, "holy universal Church"; as catholic/Catholic to him was a word to be spit-out.
There came a day when I said, "If this is what a Christian is, I don't want to be one!" However, I loved the Lord in all that I understood, and I didn't fit into the atheist group; so I switches to what my father and his kind were not a part of---And that's how I ended up in what my father called 'cult'; and everyone here calls 'Pre-mil' and/or 'cult'. Personally I call it the One True Church; the Church that has No prejudge against any other Christian, no matter their denomination or religious belief system. I believe there are Christians in ALL denominations and non-denominational Churches; including Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Mennonites, Amish, and etc. Although I do not believe everyone who confesses to be a Christian is one.
With that said, I need to say: because of my earthly father and the church (Exodus 32:25-26, "Now when Moses saw that the people were out of control---for Aaron [the church] had let them get out of control to be a derision among their enemies---then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, 'Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!' And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him.") I have little to no tolerance for any confessing Christian that continually treat others and/or their beliefs with rudeness, arrogance, or a know it all attitude; down right mean spirited.
I also want to say, because of the Religious confusion in our home and church---and afterwards, ---my mother, at the age of 90 on the 30th of this month, still believes, the rapture and/or the Second Coming only happens when a person dies. One of my '5' brothers committed suicide and the other '4' will have nothing to do with church and refuse to discuss anything on the topic of God. They've all told me, "You are the only one I trust to be straight in your understanding and faith, but it's too late for me." Do you have any idea how this hurts me? Loving them and praying for their salvation is all I am allowed to do towards them.
Do you think for one second if one or all of them would read the 'Left Behind' Books and get some insight into the Word of God, and get saved/reborn that I'd question God's reason or purpose for the books?? NO!! Not Me!! I'd Praise Him for answering my prayers; and with the same faith I'd pray that He would guide and led them into all truth, whereby they could grow.
Pat
P.S. My brother who committed suicide, had just come back (1500 miles away) from his son's funeral, and had sat all night on the church parking lot; and in the morning went to see the Preacher to make an appointment for counseling, only to be told he'd have to wait at least '6' weeks as he had no openings before that. He then came to see me, but with the children there he wouldn't or couldn't talk about what was on his mind---he just played with the children and the new kitten we had. His last words were, "Keep the faith; I didn't; you're what keeps everyone hanging on; you do make a difference." That night he went out and killed himself.
< Message edited by Hattie4Him -- 1/23/2006 3:16:34 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/23/2006 5:56:14 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hattie4Him
Greetings,
Not leaving compassion behind, and by the depth of your convictions, are you saying Postmills believe the world to be getting better and better.... Pertaining that you were once in that belief system? Correct?
I for one am having a problem discerning who is who, sort of like Abbott and Costello’s routine “who’s on first!”
In which I am beginning to see the intent of that comedy routine as it pertains to religion, being they both were Jewish. Likened to Ancient Greek singers
Perhaps we should all wear different ties like President Bush, so we do not have to assume.
Perhaps we, the posters, should include a disposition at the beginning of each reply as to what exactly we believe or tend towards?
AN OVERVIEW
In reference to the quick search I found a basic overview.
Premillennialism is the teaching that Christ will return before the millennium, interpreted literally as a 1,000 year personal reign of Christ on earth. This reign is set up at the Second Coming but precedes both the Final Judgment and the eternal state. Historically, premillennialism has not taught the various distinctives of dispensationalism . Therefore, this view (actually the original premill. position) is today called "historic premillennialism" and is held only by a minority.
Dispensational Premillennialism is the predominant view among modern evangelicals. This position was set forth systematically by J.N. Darby and the early Plymouth Brethren, popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible, and further promoted in recent times by such diverse sources as the Ryrie Study Bible, Dallas Theological Seminary, the Dake Study Bible, Hal Lindsey, Dave Hunt, Tim LaHaye, Jack Van Impe, etc. A simplified statement of its unique teachings is as follows: there are two distinct "peoples of God" (natural Israel and the Church) and seven distinct plans/ages (dispensations) in which God deals with each; this "dispensation" (the sixth) from Pentecost to the "rapture" is "the Church Age" -- a "parenthesis" unforseen by the OT prophets; once the Church is removed (i.e., "the rapture") it is generally taught that there will be a 7 year "tribulation" (based on various Bible passages); God will then resume His dealings with natural Israel, fulfilling all the OT promises, restoring their temple, etc.; finally, Christ returns and sets up a literal 1,000 year kingdom before the eternal state (as with "historic premill.").
It should be noted here that as this teaching has enjoyed popularity, factions have evolved which set forth a "mid-trib." rapture (called "pre-wrath") and also a "post-trib." rapture ( which basically returns to the ancient view that the "catching away" of the saints happens at the Second Coming). It should further be noted that Dallas Theological Seminary is now the stomping ground of teachers describing themselves as "progressive dispensationalists," a position that downplays many of the distinctive’s of "classical" dispensationalism and seeks more moderate ground.
Postmillennialism is the idea that Christ will return after the millennium. In this view, the millennium is interpreted literally as an earthly reign -- however, this reign is "ushered in" as the Church subdues the world. Thus, the world becomes more and more Christianized, bringing about a "golden age" in which Christ exercises dominion through the Church -- then the Second Coming takes place. This view is still prominent in many Reformed circles, promoted by teachers like R.J. Rushdoony, Gary DeMar, Gary North, David Chilton, etc. It also enjoyed a brief revival among many Charismatic groups under the modified form of "Dominion" or "Kingdom Now" theology. However, this Charismatic trend seems to have waned considerably as teachers like Hal Lindsey have become popular again.
The final view to consider here is Amillennialism, actually meaning "no millennium." This is a deceptive term, as we do believe Revelation 20 -- just not after the same fashion as the views described above. Some prefer "Gospel Age Millennialism" or (as in my title) "Realized Millennialism." The basic idea here is that the "thousand years" described in Revelation 20 is figurative of Christ's spiritual reign in this Gospel Age -- i.e., now. All the OT promises were fulfilled in Christ; Satan was "bound" at the cross and resurrection of Christ; there is now only one "Israel" -- the Church made up of both Jews and Gentiles; Satan will be "loosed" just before the Second Coming; the "rapture" of the saints, the resurrection, and Christ's Second Coming are all a simultaneous event, followed immediately by the one general Judgment and then the eternal state (the "new heavens and new earth").
The amillennial view was that of Augustine and also of the Protestant Reformers. Among those holding it in more recent times are the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, Malcolm Smith, Jay Adams, William Cox, the late Philip Mauro, the Church of Christ, the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana), William Hendrikson, etc. Adams, a Presbyterian author, has suggested replacing "amillennialism" with the more accurate "realized millennialism."
The above should serve as a simple introduction to the various views. Of course other strains of teaching overlap these (such as whether one is a "preterist" or not, etc.), but the overview should serve to help the reader compare and contrast the general schemes.
I will show my scheme as Dispensational Premillennialism and the belief in the Hebraic prophesies as the two (schemes) become one
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 1/23/2006 6:18:54 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2006 6:25:00 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zachmarko
Interesting that you brought up Maimonides LoyalGypsy. I had asked some questions a long time back, I don't think there has yet been a reply.
http://www.faithcommunitynetwork.com/m_99113/mpage_1/tm.htm#99113
My reason for referring back to that old post was because of what I found concering a resurrection 40 years after the Messiah was to come.
When I made that post preterism was still sort of new to me.
Greetings,
Prehaps you will find this site interesting?
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/joseph.html
Dispensational Premillennialism
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2006 11:59:33 AM
|
|
|
JoshuaMiller79
Posts: 52
Joined: 12/23/2005
From: Virginia
Status: offline
|
For my 200th post I've chosen to say this: Orthodox Preterism makes a really good case and I'm not ready to declare that its not true. So of course I have to now consider full preterism. I thought it was funny when Tom Smedley refered to it as "fool preterism". I am actually trying to take an honest look at full preterism but I've got some questions that are going to be really hard for the "hypers" to answer.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2006 9:05:03 PM
|
|
|
Mr.
Posts: 1484
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
If you have questions Josh, it never hurts to ask God about them too. I'm sure you probably already do that anyway. Full preterists may not have all the answers, but that doesn't mean they may not be headed in the right direction. I lean towards full preterism, but there are somethings that I myself need to deal with first as well. Whether I end up full or partial preterist, I need God to help me determine what is truth. I believe there is truth, but sometimes we may need to do some seeking, it seems.
If I've mistaken you for somebody else, disregard the following: what were the 3 books that somebody told you a person needs to read, and in a certain order, to understand preterism? What was that order? It's not that I think it to be magical or anything, I'm just curious.
_____________________________
God is love
|
|
|
|
|
RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/25/2006 9:18:34 AM
|
|
|
Hattie4Him
Posts: 1334
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
by the depth of your convictions, are you saying Postmills believe the world to be getting better and better.... Pertaining that you were once in that belief system? Correct?
According to 'bygraceiamsaved' [Debbie]; here in the forums, who confesses to be Post-mil; that does seem to be what Post-mils believe.
They never spoke of such things when I was being raised up in that system. I do know, they did not read and/or teach on the last half of Daniel, nor any of the book of Revelation. When I questioned this I was told, "We know other churches read and teach these things, but we do not understand them, so we don't teach on them." I even got punished at home for bringing the subject up and asking. Go figure.
BTW, If you want to know where I stand on this issue, here it is: To me, the world we live in is much like a person who has 'a boil' on top of their nose. When the eyes are open, it is there. When looking in a mirror, it is there. Anyone who knows anything about boils, knows once it starts it has to run it's course. Eventually it will burst and the contents will spill out, and if treated with TLC, it can be drained properly, then healing begins---it does get better and better. However, I have a big problem with anyone who states it's not there; they can't see or feel it (boils are painful); and/or ignores it. I do not have a problem with anyone who acknowledges it is there, has an understanding of the working process, and knows it must run its full course of getting worse in order to get better and better. I also have a big problem with anyone who is so focused on it, that they can see nothing past it; nothing but the worse and worse part.
Pat
< Message edited by Hattie4Him -- 1/25/2006 10:32:58 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/25/2006 10:46:43 AM
|
|
|
bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
Status: offline
|
Are you sure they were postmill Hattie? I am not postmil nor to my knowledge have I ever claimed to be, I am partial preterist who knows postmil and people who believe it. Your description and the fact that you aren't sure what they believe doesn't sound like postmil to me and yes, postmil believes the world is getting better and that will be the case until Christ returns for the church. IOW we are experiencing now the victory won at the Cross.
You say they never spoke of such things yet either the sermons would have contained the information or it would have been spoken of and they would have been living it. Postmils are usually very fine, cheerful Chrisitians. Of course there are always those who are false believers. I'm sorry you had the experience that you did, I know full well the damage of such an encounter.
Postmillennialism in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after or post- the thousand year "millennium".
Although some postmillennialists hold to a literal millennium of 1,000 years, most postmillennialists see the thousand years more as a figurative term for a long period of time (similar in that respect to Amillennialism). Among those holding to a non-literal "millennium" it is usually understood to have already begun, which implies a less obvious and less dramatic kind of millennium than that typically envisioned by premillennialists, as well as a more unexpected return of Christ.
Postmillennialism also teaches that the forces of Satan will gradually be defeated by the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout history up until the second coming of Christ. I agree with them concer the forces of Satan and the expansion of the Kingdom which may have led you to believe I am postmil.
Postmills don't see the world as "not there." They see God in control and Christ as having won the victory. A victory which is not for some future time but now. They don't see the world as a big boil on a nose. They see it as white with harvest.
“For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.” Thus, the angelic host of heaven affirm in Revelation 4:11:
“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” Indeed, due to His creative right, the Scripture affirms dozens of times what the psalmist declared in Psalm 24:1: “The earth is the LORD’S, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.”-Kenneth Gentry(speaking of postmill)
< Message edited by bygraceiamsaved -- 1/25/2006 11:00:54 AM >
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
