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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/20/2005 1:45:00 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
"Friends, you got to charge the atmosphere with your words...You and I can call in good things. Start calling in victory! Start calling in divine health! Start calling in abundant life! If you do that you will begin to see it come to pass. You can prophesy your future."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
I wonder what Paul’s response would be to such folly? Compare with scripture:
2 Cor 12:7-10
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/20/2005 3:53:57 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
I'm sorry to hear that some of you are missing ut on the favor of God.
Just because some of us don't believe that material blessings are the only evidence of favor with God, or that we can somehow overcome trials instantly by speaking magic words does not mean we are missing out on God's favor. God favors me, even through trials, and not because he's there with good things besides the trials, but because he uses the trials to discipline and teach me. It may not seem like God's favor when someone is sick or poor or weary, but sometimes it can be.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/23/2005 10:24:53 AM
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charityagape
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From: Cisco Texas
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quote:
preacher thet has a permanent SMILE on his face.
Of course not!! Doesn't that darn smiley preacher know we've all been baptized in vinegar?
_____________________________
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/23/2005 3:28:48 PM
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cjwpastor
Posts: 476
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Charityagape-
Some people will not like Osteen simply because of personality differences. Certainly you have visited a church and thought the message was good but didn't care for how the preacher did this or that and never came back. I think that in addition to his theology, some have difficulty with his persona, and some have issues with both.
I think it would be best if we focused on his theology rather than how much his smiles.
What does "good favor" mean to you and to others? Do you agree with Osteen that those who are God's should experience "good favor" and that you can "increase" your favor with God simply by "declaring" it?
If you do believe this, what does this say to people who are sick? My wife was shopping in a store while she was 4 month pregnant and a woman stopped to talk to her (as most women do when they see a pregnant woman). My wife commented that she was doing well but feeling a little nauseated today and this woman had the nerve to say to my wife "well, you need to just repent and confess whatever it is and declare yourself healed of this disease!" Can you believe that?? This is the mentality that is birthed by people like Osteen, Crouch, Hinn, Parsley etc. and it is not only nonsense but is unbiblical.
What do you think of that? Would you say such a thing to a fellow Christian who has morning sickness?
Chad
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/23/2005 4:49:56 PM
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bzirk
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I don't think it's personality so much that people react to negatively as it is reacting negatively to people with a condescending and/or ungracious demeanor. Someone can preach the most scripturally right message, but if they do not exhibit the fruit of the spirit, something is not right with them. Have I ever heard a pastor like that? Sure I have, and if given the choice, I would never be a part of their church. I would not willingly submit to have someone in authority over me who can talk the talk but not walk the walk.
For the record, I don't think that the word has power. Not the spoken word anyway. I do think the Word has power, but that's different than these people who use the word like it's a talisman to be conjured up and used when they are being "spiritual." Yuck. I don't want any of that. Walking with the Lord is not about accessing power. However, I do think there are too many who negate the power of the Lord. That is also sad to me.
If I started sharing things that I've witnessed and also the Lord has had me participate in during my life, I would probably be branded a heretic as well. The fact remains that the Lord's presence in our lives is powerful, and it is the power that makes us more than overcomers. But that should never be something we relegate to a tool to survive this old world. Too many times that's what charismatics do (one is too many) and too many times those who scoff at this throw the baby out with the bathwater. Neither response is correct or scriptural.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/24/2005 12:04:08 AM
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GregFerrari
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Some of Joel Osteen's messages like "the battle for the mind", is strictly scriptural.
He does however have a gimmick about always being happy and how we should emulate him if we are going to find God's favor.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/24/2005 9:34:47 AM
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bzirk
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I am still reading the sermons, and what I'm about to say is not a slap at Osteen. It's just a comment on what I'm seeing. He is not a teacher. He is an encourager but far from a teacher. There is very little if any meat to what he says, i.e., something that someone can really walk away with and it's the Lord's word planted in their hearts. But he is an encourager. That is his gifting no doubt.
I think the problem then becomes that whether there are other teachers at that church or not, the ministry is one that is a big television ministry, and his bein gon television casts him more as a teacher than he really is. That is misleading.
Again, I'm not slamming Osteen -- I think he means well (that's my gut reaction to him). But his stuff is like cotton candy. It tastes good but is quickly gone, so you gotta go back and get some more next time he's on. That's how it's looking to me.
But I'll keep reading, and the reason I'm going to do that is because, he, like Joyce Meyter, is having a huge effect on many people. I am getting questions about a lot of things those two say. Osteen and Meyers both have the good ol' boy, good ol' gal demeanor (respectively) down pat. I don't think that's fake. I think they're genuine about that, but I don't think that demeanor is sufficient to deem them teachers in the scriptural sense. But too many Christians (imo) are receiving their words as if from a teacher. If we want to receive them as from an encourager, that's fine.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/24/2005 11:15:17 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1441
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I am still reading the sermons, and what I'm about to say is not a slap at Osteen. It's just a comment on what I'm seeing. He is not a teacher. He is an encourager but far from a teacher. There is very little if any meat to what he says, i.e., something that someone can really walk away with and it's the Lord's word planted in their hearts. But he is an encourager. That is his gifting no doubt.
I think the problem then becomes that whether there are other teachers at that church or not, the ministry is one that is a big television ministry, and his bein gon television casts him more as a teacher than he really is. That is misleading.
Again, I'm not slamming Osteen -- I think he means well (that's my gut reaction to him). But his stuff is like cotton candy. It tastes good but is quickly gone, so you gotta go back and get some more next time he's on. That's how it's looking to me.
But I'll keep reading, and the reason I'm going to do that is because, he, like Joyce Meyter, is having a huge effect on many people. I am getting questions about a lot of things those two say. Osteen and Meyers both have the good ol' boy, good ol' gal demeanor (respectively) down pat. I don't think that's fake. I think they're genuine about that, but I don't think that demeanor is sufficient to deem them teachers in the scriptural sense. But too many Christians (imo) are receiving their words as if from a teacher. If we want to receive them as from an encourager, that's fine.
I wouldn't take ALL his teaching too lightly. Agree, most of it is warm, fuzzy, feel good Chrsitianity. But some of it is downright blasphemous WoF false doctrine such as:
(Joel Osteen, Sermon, CS-002 - April 23, 2000, "The Truth of The Resurrection")
"The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. And He did battle with Satan face to face. Can you imagine what a show down that was? It was good vs. evil. Right vs. wrong. Holiness vs. filth. Here are the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. But thank God. The Bible says, "Satan was no match for our Champion". This was no contest. (Congregation applauds)
Jesus crushed Satan's head with His foot. He bruised his head. And He once and for all, forever defeated and dethroned and demoralized our enemy. One translation says, "He paralyzed him and rendered him powerless". But thank God. He didn't even stop there. He went over and ripped the keys of death and hell out of Satan's hands. And He grabbed Satan by the nap of his neck and He began to slowly drag him down through the corridors of Hell. All beat up and bruised because He wanted to make sure that every single demon saw very clearly that Jesus was indeed the undisputed Champion of all time! Amen?"
This is a blasphemous teaching among Word Faith teachers that Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross. They actually teach that when the blood of Jesus poured out on the cross that it did not atone for our sins. They claim that Jesus had to suffer in our place in hell in order to finish the redemption. There is a long list of these false teachers that adhere to this INCLUDING JOEL OSTEEN :
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/24/2005 8:26:32 PM
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pblondeau46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: grizzly_bear
I'm sorry to hear that some of you are missing ut on the favor of God. And, yes, speaking God's favor over your life and circumstance has an amazing effect. Look, I was very skeptical and also figured it was just a bunch of psychological mubo-jubo as well. But, then I discovered it really works! How amazing! Has gone a long way toward changing my life! Yes, I still have trials, of course (who deson't?), but I also have faith to get me through those trials.
Your life is changing, but who is changing it? You or God?
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/25/2005 9:16:21 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2847
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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The teaching that Jesus descended into hell for three days to accomplish His work is not scriptural, but I hesitate to call these people heretics. I've prayed about this, and while I heartily disagree with the teaching and have no compunction about saying so, I hesitate to call these people heretics. One thing that really kept coming to mind was the fact that people who believe you can lose or walk away from your salvation are teaching something heretical as well. Why? Because they are teaching that the cross is insufficient. In fact, they could be considered more heretical than people who are teaching a different version of what happened at the cross yet still teach that the Lord's work is sufficient. Those who teach loss of salvation are indeed teaching another Gospel; however, I don't think of those people as heretics. This seems similar to me.
If I'm wrong, then the Lord will convict me of it -- of that I have no doubt. LOL!
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/25/2005 10:10:53 AM
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Soxfan
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
The teaching that Jesus descended into hell for three days to accomplish His work is not scriptural, but I hesitate to call these people heretics. I've prayed about this, and while I heartily disagree with the teaching and have no compunction about saying so, I hesitate to call these people heretics. One thing that really kept coming to mind was the fact that people who believe you can lose or walk away from your salvation are teaching something heretical as well. Why? Because they are teaching that the cross is insufficient. In fact, they could be considered more heretical than people who are teaching a different version of what happened at the cross yet still teach that the Lord's work is sufficient. Those who teach loss of salvation are indeed teaching another Gospel; however, I don't think of those people as heretics. This seems similar to me.
If I'm wrong, then the Lord will convict me of it -- of that I have no doubt. LOL!
I don't consider teaching that Jesus descended into hell for three days to accomplish His work heretical. But it sure comes close.
If you listen to what some of these teachers say when they expand on that belief it's scary!
I don't believe that one can lose their salvation, but one can surely turn away from or reject God. The Bible is clear when it says not everyone that calls me Lord will enter the Kingdom
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/25/2005 10:24:12 AM
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bzirk
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For me personally, it behooves me to keep reading the scriptures and to keep reading what these people have to say so that it will test what I believe. Then when I'm asked about it, I'll be ready.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/6/2005 6:54:53 PM
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divine_design_21
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I am not sure where I stand on Osteen now because I'm so confused. Confusion is a tool of the enemy. If the enemy can get us to bicker about Joel Osteen then he can distract us from what is really important, glorifying God.
The first time I watched Osteen he preached about being grateful when you are down and being thankful for what you've got rather than complaining about what you don't have. Sounds like good advice to me.
My idea of a bad preacher is one who is molesting children, not one who makes more money than I do. That's between him and God. Not for me to judge. If you don't like him, don't listen to him.
All these different doctrines and theologies and beliefs and types of churches and people saying their way is the right way makes a person who is new to Christ very confused. This is the most confusing religion I've ever found. BUT, i must say, I still believe Christ died for my sins and I am going to remain faithful to HIM no matter what people of this earth say about what is false doctrine. I'm just going to read my bible and pray for discernment.
As for God's will, I pray for it in my life. But I don't leave every decision up to chance. If my child gets hurt, I'm not going to say, "Well honey, if it's God's will for you to live then you'll live but I'm not taking you to the hospital." We are to pray for God's will but we still have to do some footwork down here!
< Message edited by divine_design_21 -- 6/6/2005 7:01:15 PM >
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/7/2005 3:13:42 AM
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gaylel1
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From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
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quote:
All these different doctrines and theologies and beliefs and types of churches and people saying their way is the right way makes a person who is new to Christ very confused. This is the most confusing religion I've ever found. BUT, i must say, I still believe Christ died for my sins and I am going to remain faithful to HIM no matter what people of this earth say about what is false doctrine. I'm just going to read my bible and pray for discernment.
But remember though, it is not about religion, but a relationship with Christ.
_____________________________
Hear "The Truth" with the "other" Jeff Johnson(http://www.calvarydowney.org)
Visit me at http//:www.gayleplace.blogspot.com or http://www.myspace.com/gaylel121
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/7/2005 8:18:17 AM
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Soxfan
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Someone in another thread summed Osteen up perfectly. If you see him as a self-help, feel good, guru (Dr Phil, Oprah, Tony Robbins, etc), then that's not so bad.
However, the fact that he portrays himself as a minister for Christ is the problem. I've posted the numerous quotes highlighting his false doctrine. They speak for themselves.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/7/2005 4:20:20 PM
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divine_design_21
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
But remember though, it is not about religion, but a relationship with Christ.
Thank you, I'll work on that. My question is this- when i read the bible and I'm not sure how to interpret something I'll turn to someone for help and I usually get a different explanation from each person. I think I should stop doing that and just pray for Him to reveal the true meaning to me.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/8/2005 3:40:05 PM
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xgringo
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Christianity LITE --- Taste Great Less Filling ----
"Power of Positive Thinking" Relying on Self vs. God ---
Looks good though and is fooling thousands....
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/9/2005 8:33:26 AM
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Soxfan
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xgringo
Christianity LITE --- Taste Great Less Filling ----
"Power of Positive Thinking" Relying on Self vs. God ---
Looks good though and is fooling thousands....
AMEN!!!
Actually it should be: Taste Great, Less (FULL)filling
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/9/2005 9:27:36 PM
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saintgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: divine_design_21
quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
But remember though, it is not about religion, but a relationship with Christ.
Thank you, I'll work on that. My question is this- when i read the bible and I'm not sure how to interpret something I'll turn to someone for help and I usually get a different explanation from each person. I think I should stop doing that and just pray for Him to reveal the true meaning to me.
You would do well to invest in a verse by verse commentary by a well-recognized Bible scholar. The one that comes immediately to mind is Matthew Henry's Commentary in one volume (its concensed from his multi-volume, but none of the meat has been cut, just some of the "fat". (Henry was born around 1662, and has been used by other Bible scholars, preachers and teachers since he was first published). There are others, as well. Perhaps some of the others who post here might have recommendations? Oh, yes, Warren Wiersby also has commentaries. I believe he might have done a verse by verse, I know he did a chapter by chapter. You might also see if Norman Geisler has published a commentary. For "quick referrence" a good study Bible is a big help. I use the Nelson Study Bible in New King James. There are other good versions too.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/10/2005 11:42:08 PM
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Momof5Angels
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I read a magazine article a week or two ago, I think it was People, that did an article on the feel-good teachings of Joel Osteen. In it Joel is quoted as saying, "I don't necessarily preach doctrine" and then he says something about empowering people to make their lives better or something.
Any pastor that says, "I don't necessarily preach doctrine" is a useless pastor as far as I'm concerned.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/11/2005 7:40:27 PM
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lss44
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Not sure of the date of the article, but the Houston Chronicle had an article on Osteen. They asked him why there were no crosses in the church. He said they were a barrier. Think on that one a minute...
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/12/2005 8:07:25 PM
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KathrynM
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GPickypick
quote:
Just saying that sometimes we need to know what a particular scripture "looks like" in our own life.
Yeah, I agree. I just think the emphasis is overdone.
In the 1800s, you had many stale preachers who were more concerned about being proper than about making any impact in people's lives. There was no application. Now, the opposite problem is true, and the culprits are Osteen, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, etc.
I think God has given us godly leaders as examples to follow in our walk ("be imitators of us, as we are imitators of Christ"). A few specific examples can help, but of course, one can't cover every situation. But I think it's part of a pastor-teacher's job to inform the mind and the conscience of his hearer in order that they may know in truth, "What would Jesus do?".
I haven't read this entire thread, but I don't appreciate comments about Bill Hybels or Rick Warren, for that matter. Bill Hybels is not on television, and unless you've attended there, I don't think you need to make such comments on heresay. The bible is taught in depth at my church - Willow Creek - we just worked through all of Colossians. No taking things out of context there. And it is not preached there that we will automatically have rich or great lives by following Christ, but that if we have been blessed with money and a gift for giving, we can be a great service to the needy. There are wealthy people who go to my church that don't live wealthy at all, but give enormous amounts of their salary to help the poor, needy, and those who need to know God. And this is directly in line with biblical teaching. My church preaches the message of salvation and that we need to accept Jesus to go to heaven. It teaches the entire Word of God with love and compassion.
And one thing that Bill Hybels and Willow gets right is grace. And its grace that saves.
Sorry for arguing, I have a feeling I shouldn't have said this, but felt it needed to be said.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/13/2005 8:59:13 AM
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cjwpastor
Posts: 476
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lss44
Not sure of the date of the article, but the Houston Chronicle had an article on Osteen. They asked him why there were no crosses in the church. He said they were a barrier. Think on that one a minute...
That is very troubling. Especially when Paul said that he resolved to know nothing apart from Christ crucified. How do you get to that when you think the cross is a "barrier"?
Also, without doctrine there is no faith. Doctrine is worth fighting for, and any pastor who says they don't believe in teaching doctrine is nothing but a sham.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 6/14/2005 11:53:38 AM
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seanwalsh
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maybe you hear what you want to? 
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