RE: Joel Osteen? (Full Version)

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JohnnyBulky -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 11:11:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: is5512

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnnyBulky

quote:

ORIGINAL: is5512
Everything he'd learned in seminary told him, "Maybe God will heal the child, maybe He won't. Depends on what fickle mood has Him at any given moment."
This ain't the Sean Hannity forum. Using false statements to support your opinion won't get you very far on this forum.


ummm, beg pardon, bro. in this particular instance, the quote was to represent what was going thru John Osteen's mind......
No. What I was objecting to was that you stated that "seminary told him" this false doctrine about God's fickle moods. If you want to make accusations about Osteen's seminary teaching false doctrines, then you should be prepared to back it up.



GPickypick -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 11:16:23 AM)

It's sad that so many people haven't studied the real thing (Scripture) enough to know the counterfeit (Osteen).



Soxfan -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 1:44:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GPickypick

It's sad that so many people haven't studied the real thing (Scripture) enough to know the counterfeit (Osteen).


Amen GPickypick! [:)]

That's what really frustrates me. If anyone would take the time to have their Bibles OPEN while one of these WoF teachers were spewing their warped theology, they would see their false teachings within 5 minutes!!



notmycity -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 2:05:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: GPickypick

It's sad that so many people haven't studied the real thing (Scripture) enough to know the counterfeit (Osteen).


Amen GPickypick! [:)]

That's what really frustrates me. If anyone would take the time to have their Bibles OPEN while one of these WoF teachers were spewing their warped theology, they would see their false teachings within 5 minutes!!


There ya go. Amen! [:D]



bzirk -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 2:14:30 PM)

These last few posts sound condescending -- wehther you meant that or not. Does it always take you 5 minutes to understand things in the scriptures? I think not. LOL!!

Yes, I agree people should study the word for themselves. No question. But it's an insult to people to say or imply that it would only take 5 minutes. Depends on what we're talking about.



Soxfan -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 3:11:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

These last few posts sound condescending -- wehther you meant that or not. Does it always take you 5 minutes to understand things in the scriptures? I think not. LOL!!

Yes, I agree people should study the word for themselves. No question. But it's an insult to people to say or imply that it would only take 5 minutes. Depends on what we're talking about.


Yes, I was slightly exagerating. However, many are so blatantly unscriptual that it doesn't take very long to see it.

I heard a great one the other night. Creflo Dollar claimed that Jesus couldn't have been fully God, because he fell asleep in the boat with the disciples, and that the Bible states that God never sleeps or slumbers. He also claimed that Jesus had to "grow" into his "sonship". That he was not fully the son of God until he reached 30 years old! This message was on his website too. When I find it I'll post it so I don't get accused of twisting his words.

What really made me sad was the "Amens' coming from the congregation! If any of them had their Bibles open, they would have realized the "In the BEGINNING, was the Word and the Word became flesh"



bzirk -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 3:14:33 PM)

Well, if that's what he said, that is indeed wrong. If someone KNOWS where to look, then they would know within 5 minutes that this is wrong. Problem is that not all people know where to look.

BTW, the biggest assault on Christianity NO MATTER WHAT AGE OR WHAT MOVEMENT, is always to pervert the deity of Jesus Christ. Ever noticed that?



Soxfan -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 3:24:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

Well, if that's what he said, that is indeed wrong. If someone KNOWS where to look, then they would know within 5 minutes that this is wrong. Problem is that not all people know where to look.

BTW, the biggest assault on Christianity NO MATTER WHAT AGE OR WHAT MOVEMENT, is always to pervert the deity of Jesus Christ. Ever noticed that?


That is an excellent point. One of the main pieces of WoF doctrine is the elevation of man and the lowering of Jesus. That is most evident in their teaching that Jesus went to hell and was the first "Born Again man" That garbage makes me want to puke when I hear it. And both Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer (other thread) have taught that!



GPickypick -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 3:25:54 PM)

See...the problem is that people can take what Osteen says, compare it to a similar Scripture passage, and say, "Look! He's Biblical!". But the fact is that if you read the Bible regularly, if you study it honestly -- if you make it your goal to find out what it says, and then to find out what it means -- if you do these things, you will notice when someone is not coming from a truly Biblical perspective.

There is a huge difference between "not contradicting" the Bible and actually preaching from the word of God what the word of God says. Huge. Joel Osteen is not exegetical. He does not seek to find the true meaning of a passage and then preach what the text says. He decides what he wants to say that will get him the biggest crowd and make the most people like him, and then he twists passages of Scripture or takes them out of context to "prove" his point.

When I was a false convert, I LOVED Osteen. He made me feel good. I just loved watching him on TV. I would remark to my Christian friend how good he made me feel about myself. The problem is, Christianity isn't about self-love; it's about self-hate and the denial of your sinful self. I was mired in sin, rebelling against the God I claimed to be born of. But God graciously saved me and I can now see the trap I was held in by people like Joel Osteen, who only want to make you feel good about yourself and not confront you over your sin, the one thing you need to see to know you need salvation. Praise Jesus, I'm free, and now I want to make sure that others don't fall victim to the same trap in which I was held.



JohnnyBulky -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 3:35:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GPickypick
He does not seek to find the true meaning of a passage and then preach what the text says. He decides what he wants to say... and then he twists passages of Scripture or takes them out of context to "prove" his point.
This is a great analysis. And A LOT of preachers do that even some that mean well.



bzirk -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 3:43:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GPickypick

See...the problem is that people can take what Osteen says, compare it to a similar Scripture passage, and say, "Look! He's Biblical!". But the fact is that if you read the Bible regularly, if you study it honestly -- if you make it your goal to find out what it says, and then to find out what it means -- if you do these things, you will notice when someone is not coming from a truly Biblical perspective.

There is a huge difference between "not contradicting" the Bible and actually preaching from the word of God what the word of God says. Huge. Joel Osteen is not exegetical. He does not seek to find the true meaning of a passage and then preach what the text says. He decides what he wants to say that will get him the biggest crowd and make the most people like him, and then he twists passages of Scripture or takes them out of context to "prove" his point.

When I was a false convert, I LOVED Osteen. He made me feel good. I just loved watching him on TV. I would remark to my Christian friend how good he made me feel about myself. The problem is, Christianity isn't about self-love; it's about self-hate and the denial of your sinful self. I was mired in sin, rebelling against the God I claimed to be born of. But God graciously saved me and I can now see the trap I was held in by people like Joel Osteen, who only want to make you feel good about yourself and not confront you over your sin, the one thing you need to see to know you need salvation. Praise Jesus, I'm free, and now I want to make sure that others don't fall victim to the same trap in which I was held.


You made some good points, but the only thing you need to be careful of is implying that everyone who has the same perspective that you used to have of Osteen is indeed a false convert as you were.


The only other thing I disagree with is saying that Chrisitanity is about self hate. That's the kind of remark that needs to be explained scripturally. If it is not, it can lead to all kinds of error.



GPickypick -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 4:37:15 PM)

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." - Luke 14:26

"Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." - John 12:25

"And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."" - Luke 9:23

The word "deny" literally means "refuse to associate with". You must hate yourself, hate the wretched person you are, come to an end of yourself, and realize that you are absolute filth in the sight of a perfect, holy God.

The saved man will say with the apostle Paul, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" (Romans 7:24). He will hate everything about himself that does not come from God. His sin nature, his worldly desires, his wretched flesh; he will hate it all.

I do not believe that everyone who watches Joel Osteen is a false convert, but I do know that in watching him, they are being deceived, and that they are grouping themselves with those who are on their way to hell. It's a very dangerous place to be.



notmycity -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 4:58:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

These last few posts sound condescending -- wehther you meant that or not. Does it always take you 5 minutes to understand things in the scriptures? I think not. LOL!!

Yes, I agree people should study the word for themselves. No question. But it's an insult to people to say or imply that it would only take 5 minutes. Depends on what we're talking about.



Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(KJV)


Heb 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(KJV)
With continuous study of The Word, we eventually can “discern both good and evil”, and for some all it takes really is five minutes, by God’s grace.

To be fair I told one of my brothers I would watch Joel Osteen several more times and provide a critique with sound scriptural doctrine. Also to be fair I’ll acknowledge when I hear Joel speak the truth. There are times when he does, and this makes teachers like him especially dangerous.

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(KJV)

Many Christians are led astray by false teaching because they haven’t gotten into the Word or gotten the Word into them.



facedown -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 5:10:30 PM)

I've seen this dude a few times. He's about the most uncharismatic preacher I've ever heard. His style, really isn't my cup of tea <that is to say, I don't flip to him, but I'm not in a rush to flip him off>

That being said, I'd like to address:
quote:

You must hate yourself, hate the wretched person you are, come to an end of yourself, and realize that you are absolute filth in the sight of a perfect, holy God.
Hmmm. I think it's a good to always know where we were. However our focus should be on who we are in Christ. I once was a wretched person, filth, and dead-fatherless a stranger without hope. But sin has lost it's power, death has lost it's sting! We are made alive in Christ, and alive we are! They will be no looking back....no walking away. What God created was "good", and in Christ we are restored to where God wants us.

The consequence of being made alive, does not equate to us being Worthy, Holy, or Pure. Indeed, we are still in need of God.

quote:

but I do know that in watching him, they are being deceived, and that they are grouping themselves with those who are on their way to hell. It's a very dangerous place to be
LORD have mercy. For us to claim whose names are written; to claim some hidden knowledge of those who are saved, and those "on their way to hell".

May the LORD's Peace be upon you



charityagape -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 5:20:01 PM)

Good Post Facedown. I see these threads on so many different people, and I see the hatefullness and the claims of hearesy and well it just goes on and on. Some people go around pointing out everyone and judging and they need to be judging themselves.
Some can make Christianity seem like such a depressing, hateful, religion, no better than the moslem religion. Christianity isn't about religion at all, its about relationship with Christ. I've never heard Osteen say anything that classifies him as anything other than a Christian.



bzirk -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 5:20:10 PM)

quote:

With continuous study of The Word, we eventually can “discern both good and evil”, and for some all it takes really is five minutes, by God’s grace.


Or less. [:D]

But my point is that it's not a matter of someone just opening the Bible and reading it and five minues later they will know what they are hearing is false.

Good points, Gpickypick.



bzirk -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/6/2005 5:22:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

...I'd like to address:
quote:

You must hate yourself, hate the wretched person you are, come to an end of yourself, and realize that you are absolute filth in the sight of a perfect, holy God.
Hmmm. I think it's a good to always know where we were. However our focus should be on who we are in Christ. I once was a wretched person, filth, and dead-fatherless a stranger without hope. But sin has lost it's power, death has lost it's sting! We are made alive in Christ, and alive we are! They will be no looking back....no walking away. What God created was "good", and in Christ we are restored to where God wants us.

The consequence of being made alive, does not equate to us being Worthy, Holy, or Pure. Indeed, we are still in need of God.



More good points.



AQuietPlace -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/7/2005 8:34:56 PM)

if you want to check out one of joel osteen's services now and not just the sermon on television, go to http://www.lakewood.cc/a_v_library.htm It's available right now.



Sylvia123 -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/8/2005 10:42:10 AM)

Newsflash. Joel didn't complete college and never attended a seminary. He got all of his training from his father. His mother probably groomed him to take his father's place in his ministry.

There are a lot of fine preachers that don't attend a seminary who preach a positive sermon. I listen to him because he does make me laugh and some of the things he says are true to life. No matter, I do see scripture posted and I've taken notes from most of what I've seen and he is in my opinion a devout caring minister. I don't want to see his name be chastised. Maybe that's why they went from being a Baptist Church to being non-denominational? Sometimes he repeats himself in other sermons but maybe people weren't listening. He isn't taking a salary for being a minister. The money he receives from book sales is enough according to a recent interview I read. I think whatever he does he has his father in mind of keeping his ministry alive and look how much it has grown. I've seen Chuck Norris sitting on the front row.

Holding up your Bible is like holding up your sword to the enemy and maybe that is why they repeat that each time. If you go to his web site you'll see he has other ministries in his church. [8|]



catherwood -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/8/2005 11:48:43 AM)

I have just skimmed through a couple of posts on this thread. I actually didn't even know who Joel Osteen was until last week. I mean, I knew his face and that he was a preacher of sorts; but that was it.

I think what GPickypick says is very insightful and helpful and that she is probably the rule, rather than the exception to the rule. When CNN interviewed Mr. Osteen, he seemed like a delightful man, not a grump like me; but his message isn't Scriptural and it shows up in the congregation. He said that he doesn't preach politics. He has avoided quite a pitfall there. But then he said that he never (maybe it was rarely, but I think he communicated never) anyway, he never preached about hell. Jesus spoke about hell often. It was a deep concern of his. 'The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few.' The harvest is Bible talk for the judgment. People are rushing toward judgment and they don't even realize it. In Romans Paul introduces his subject for the letter in Romans 1.16,17 - 'the gospel'. Paul says that he is not ashamed of it. In fact, he is saying in a round about way that he is extremely proud of it. Why? He tells us: because 'it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. For in it a righteousness from God is revealed that is from faith and to faith (of faith from start to finish in other words). Just as it is written: The just shall live by faith.' But in his preaching of the gospel the first thing that Paul does is go into the fact that everyone who is outside of Christ (Jew or Gentile) is under the wrath of God. In fact, Paul doesn't just tell them they are under God's wrath; he reasons with them with many different arguments in order to prove to them that they are under God's wrath. He spends Rom. 1.18 through 3.20 doing just that. My point is, is that this is a big part of the gospel. It is a big part of preaching the gospel. Paul spends till the end of chapter 3 actually preaching the gospel. Romans 4 is about the nature of saving faith. And 5.1-4 is a summary. At verse 5 he begins talking about the love of God. He takes a break from Romans 5.12 to the end of chapter 7 and then picks up on the love of God again in Romans 8. Actually, he is dealing with the assurance of salvation under the sections I labeled as the love of God, but it amounts to about the same thing, though not exactly.

See, Mr. Osteen doesn't honor God's word. It isn't Biblical. The lack of emphasis on the peril of man and the wrath of God at our sin creates a decadent and perverse, self-seeking congregation. It was absolutely repulsive to me to see them wanting to build and/or occupy this huge monstrosity of a thing to put the thousands of members in it for services. The prayers are 'Bless me, bless me. Let thus and who get this promotion.' It is disgusting.' While they sit all self-seeking, self-satisfied, praying to get promotions; never mentioning God's wrath at sin - the world outside goes to hell. While they sit all self-seeking, self-satisfied, praying to get promotions; 40,000 children die of starvation every day in the world. It was the most repulsive thing I have ever seen in my life in recent days. How disgusting! How unlike Christ. How unlike the early church. How unlike Biblical Christianity. There is a reason why thousands upon thousands followed Jesus when He fed them bread and 'they were satisfied'; but in the end they crucified Him and there were only 120 in the Upper Room just prior to Pentecost. Most of the churches in America are that way (huge monstrosities of a thing) because the congregations are being lied to by their leaders. Most of the people in those churches are not saved. There is no way they could be. You have to understand that you are under the wrath of God before you can see your need of Christ and cling to Him in faith.

God bless, keep, lead and guard you in Christ, [8|]
Catherwood



AQuietPlace -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/8/2005 1:42:39 PM)

catherwood said: While they sit all self-seeking, self-satisfied, praying to get promotions; 40,000 children die of starvation every day in the world.

The Lakewood church, where Osteen ministers, regularly offers a variety of services including food and shelter, training, counseling and education, health fairs, neighborhood vaccination drives, dental health screenings, Stephens ministry, monthly food distribution, free financial planning, grief support, home schooling support, and a public school mentoring program. In addition, the church actively supports other ministries, specifically: Bridge Over Troubled Water, providing shelter for up to 185 women and children; Open Door, a crisis intervention service for over 200 men providing addiction recovery services and job and skill training; SEARCH, a provider of homeless services which offers job training, education, healthcare and transitional housing; and Living Word Outreach, providing food for those in need all across Houston. Regarding foreign missions, The Seven Years of Harvest began under Pastor John Osteen and then was completed under Pastor Joel Osteen with Lakewood Church and its missions friends giving over $29 million around the world. One example of how it was used: Supported Medical Missions Outreaches, including sponsoring an operating room clinic in Benin, Nigeria



AQuietPlace -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/8/2005 2:23:38 PM)

catherwood said: Jesus spoke about hell often. It was a deep concern of his
Actually hell is mentioned a grand total of 14 times in all the gospels, and only related to just 4 different points: [1] Anyone angry with his brother…is guilty enough to go to hell [2] If your right eye/hand cause you to stumble…it is better to lose one part of your body than your whole body…into hell. [3] Do not fear those who kill…but rather fear Him who is able to destroy body and soul in hell [4] Woe to you who makes one proselyte and then makes him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
By contrast, love is mentioned 43 times, forgive is mentioned 17 times, pray/prayer is mentioned 31 times. Hell is at the bottom of this short list. If we consider frequency of mention, it seems that Jesus was more concerned about other things.
Jesus said: Love your neighbor as yourself. Our neighbors’ won’t be getting much love if we think very little of ourselves. And on the cross, in the midst of his suffering, Jesus said: Father, forgive them. He didn’t say: I hope you guys know you’re going to hell; you had better repent.



charityagape -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/8/2005 2:32:51 PM)

Great posts, a quiet place, and from those posts I can see you probably see that quiet place out often.

quote:

Most of the people in those churches are not saved.



I've been a member of a Lakewood and this is a false and dangerous claim. You can't know the salvation status of anyone outside yourself.



29redballoons -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/8/2005 9:44:10 PM)

I am saved and Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of my life...no doubt about it. With Joel Osteen, I take from his messages the same as I do with any other preacher/pastor/teacher...the information that bears witness with my spirit. I check all teachings by the word of God... some of these posts sound as though some of the highly spiritual need to stop being judgemental.



catherwood -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/8/2005 10:06:59 PM)

Thanks for your replies....Sorry...I am correct in what I am saying. All you have to do is check his messages against the book of Romans. It won't be very much like it. That is the gospel. That is what we are to preach. It is the only thing that saves people. It is the only thing that is the power of God unto salvation. The problem with the church is that we aren't judgmental enough. I am not writing people off in the sense that they will never be able to get saved or improve. That is what it means to be judgmental in the sense that some of you are talking about. I am holding up his ministry against the Apostle Paul using Paul as the standard because that is what Scripture says to do. He won't match Romans. Also, Jesus preached about hell much, much more than just 14 times. You are incorrect in that. I think that James words to the church in Jerusalem are much more appropriate to the church in America. 'Let your laughter be turned to mourning....You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God?' Not very nice words are they? Pretty judgmental aren't they? Yet this is what the Lord said to that church and to us today through James. A church that sits in the midst of a country that has murdered 42 million of its own unborn children via abortion I don't think should be concerned about saying nice things about itself. If we are the possessors of the power of God unto salvation then why have the people who we lived with murdered so many of their own children? I think a lack of judgment and condemnation of the church in America is about the last thing that we need. 'Wake up', Ephesians 5

God bless, keep, lead and guard you in Messiah,
Catherwood



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