RE: Joel Osteen? (Full Version)

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Ps103 -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 12:19:12 PM)

Okay, I didn't think I knew who Joel Whatzit was, but after reading the LK parody, I realized I *do* know. [:'(]

Thanks for the parody, Tirno--it was great!



Soxfan -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 12:56:29 PM)

Good article on Joel Osteen's "feel good" watered down gospel"
http://cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm



martyro -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 1:00:50 PM)

I'm new to this forum and im surprised at the accusations tossed so easily in this thread.

I did like the parody very well done.

I have watch Olsteen several times and never once thought ahhh run for the hills.

I also know a man who was a member and involved in the ministry there a long time ago. He has nothing but great things to say about Mr. Olsteen's ministry.

I think we see from the broadcast a selected portion of what they want to broadcast. I have never heard him deny the deity or salvation. Nothing of "heresy". In fact I often hear him say if your watching this program and are interested in whats been said go find a bible believing church and get involved.

As far as the other statements said here I have never read in the Bible where being blessed or having success is a sin? I also never read in the Bible do not encourage people. Or your church has to be this size or your seeking the wrong things. People should be involved in areas of ministry based on their gifts. He's obviously gifted at encouragement.

Also since being new here you will have to explain "WOF"



JohnnyBulky -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 1:02:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JartNinja
I have watch Olsteen several times and never once thought ahhh run for the hills.

I think this might be the most dangerous aspect of false teachers like Joel Osteen.



martyro -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 1:12:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnnyBulky

quote:

ORIGINAL: JartNinja
I have watch Olsteen several times and never once thought ahhh run for the hills.

I think this might be the most dangerous aspect of false teachers like Joel Osteen.


Ok then explain your claim "false teacher" ie. the point of a forum. The Spirit has never told me he is a false teacher. Of course I have limited perspective on him like I said I have watched him a few times but thats all.

Is he teaching Christ is not the way to salvation? Has he ever said that?



JohnnyBulky -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 1:17:33 PM)

quote:

Ok then explain your claim "false teacher" ie. the point of a forum.

"See the Bible says that we can grow in favor," said Osteen in his sermon "Increasing in Favor" (available in RealAudio at http://www.lakewood.cc/a_v_library.htm). "I believe one of the main ways that we grow in favor is by declaring it. It’s not enough to just read it it’s not enough to just believe it. You’ve got to speak it out. Your words have creative power. And one of the primary ways we release our faith is through our words. And there is a divine connection between you declaring God’s favor and you seeing God’s favor manifest in your life…You’ve got to give life to your faith by speaking it out."

In keeping with the erroneous idea of using some positive thinking to get what you want in life, Osteen preaches the Kenneth Hagin/Charles Capps idea that we can get what we want from God by our faith-filled words. This entire sermon was on how as a child of God we should be receiving "preferential treatment" by everyone. He testified about how he had been pulled over a couple of times for speeding but when the officer saw his last name was Osteen, no ticket was issued. He said the same can happen for every Christian who wakes up declaring they have God’s favor. By following this method Osteen says he has been able to get the best parking spot in a crowded parking lot, a first class seat on a crowded airplane with no boarding pass, and priority seating at restaurants.

This is a far cry from what the treatment the Bible says true believers will receive from the world. Jesus warned in John 15:18-19, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."



mixster -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 1:31:58 PM)

I just pass him on by like I do about 99 percent of these tv preachers.



notmycity -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 1:45:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JartNinja
Ok then explain your claim "false teacher" ie. the point of a forum.


My wife and I watched Joel Osteen this past weekend. The topic had to do with developing a sensitive conscience. Over and over he had mentioned following conscience and listening to one’s heart , and how this is God’s way of communicating to folks.

By way of comparison, scripture says:

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
(KJV)

Mark 7:21-23
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
(KJV)

Again, by way of comparison scripture says we know of God’s will though The Word and The Spirit:

Ps 119:9
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
(KJV)

Ps 119:11
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
(KJV)

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)

1 Cor 2:10-12
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(KJV)

Eph 3:2-5
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
(KJV)

Gal 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
(KJV)

“Good works” come from listening to and doing God’s Word in conjunction with yielding to the Holy spirit. Joel Osteen doesn’t teach this, but rather leans toward humanistic “conscience”. He also misquoted one and a half verses (out of context) to try to justify his point. The first was 1 Tim 4:2b “having their conscience seared with a hot iron..”, and the second was Matt 6:23 (Amplified Version).

Any teaching that doesn’t gel with scripture and sound doctrine must be scrutinized.



martyro -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 2:17:01 PM)

Thanks I agree with you on your point, the "world' does hate us, but God has my back[;)]. I also believe words spoken from true believers have power not from us but from Christ if it is in accordance to His will. We are shown this throughout the Bible ie. Christ spoke and it happened (insert any number of examples here from Paul to Elijah).

Example: If I speak "God give me a Porsche" will he give me a Porsche probably not. What glory would that bring to God I drove in a Porsche he just gave me. It would go against the order of things that God has set in place.

I see your point in the danger of his statement to those who are not fully aware of the scripture.

If he is not fully explaining himself properly then he will answer to God about it. Again is he leading people away from Christ? I do see the danger in what he said being taken wrong but I can't say if his intent is wrong. If he is purposefully misleading people for money then he has bigger things to worry about.



JohnnyBulky -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 2:27:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JartNinja
... he will answer to God about it....
He certainly will.



is5512 -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/3/2005 2:46:36 PM)

O-k, going off thread here, but Daddy Osteen was some kind of amazing.



theoPh.D -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 5:22:40 AM)

Certainly nothing that can be considered Christian. Rather, it is self-interested "all about me" therapy



floydette -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 11:21:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theoPh.D

Certainly nothing that can be considered Christian. Rather, it is self-interested "all about me" therapy



I would call it "practical ways for a person to walk out their faith journey." Practical application is seriously missing in many churches. There is a need for people to understand HOW to walk out scripture. How it applies to their own lives.



notmycity -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 11:34:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydette

quote:

ORIGINAL: theoPh.D

Certainly nothing that can be considered Christian. Rather, it is self-interested "all about me" therapy



There is a need for people to understand HOW to walk out scripture. How it applies to their own lives.


Only this fellow isn't teaching scripture, but rather quoting and/or misquoting pieces of scripture (out of context) to suit his humanistic theology.



floydette -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 11:45:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydette

quote:

ORIGINAL: theoPh.D

Certainly nothing that can be considered Christian. Rather, it is self-interested "all about me" therapy



There is a need for people to understand HOW to walk out scripture. How it applies to their own lives.


Only this fellow isn't teaching scripture, but rather quoting and/or misquoting pieces of scripture (out of context) to suit his humanistic theology.


I am not denying it. Only that I haven't seen or heard it.



GPickypick -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 12:51:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydette

I would call it "practical ways for a person to walk out their faith journey." Practical application is seriously missing in many churches. There is a need for people to understand HOW to walk out scripture. How it applies to their own lives.


The American pragmatist wants a to-do list for everything, as of Christianity is some kind of set of rules and actions to take. Scripture, on the other hand, provides us with a multitude of truths about Christ, and in understanding these truths, we are conformed to his image, thereby living out the "practical" aspects (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Why do you think Paul so often wrote doctrinal information first, followed by practical exhortations? Look at Romans: 11 chapters of doctrine, followed by exhortations which are based on that doctrine (see "therefore" in Romans 12:1). The same is true in Ephesians, which is split three and three.

The Christian life is an overflow of being surrenderred to God and knowing Christ and about Christ. As you behold him in greater truth, so long as you do not reject him, you will conform to his image.



floydette -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 1:20:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GPickypick

quote:

ORIGINAL: floydette

I would call it "practical ways for a person to walk out their faith journey." Practical application is seriously missing in many churches. There is a need for people to understand HOW to walk out scripture. How it applies to their own lives.


The American pragmatist wants a to-do list for everything, as of Christianity is some kind of set of rules and actions to take. Scripture, on the other hand, provides us with a multitude of truths about Christ, and in understanding these truths, we are conformed to his image, thereby living out the "practical" aspects (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Why do you think Paul so often wrote doctrinal information first, followed by practical exhortations? Look at Romans: 11 chapters of doctrine, followed by exhortations which are based on that doctrine (see "therefore" in Romans 12:1). The same is true in Ephesians, which is split three and three.

The Christian life is an overflow of being surrenderred to God and knowing Christ and about Christ. As you behold him in greater truth, so long as you do not reject him, you will conform to his image.


I agree with your post. Just saying that sometimes we need to know what a particular scripture "looks like" in our own life.



relady -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 2:04:55 PM)

quote:

His is the emphasis of the false doctrine of prosperity here on the earth, yet Jesus Himself had nothing but the clothes on His back during His ministry.


True, but Jesus didn't actively teach against being prosperous. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates there is any inherent sinfulness in being prosperous or even wanting to be prosperous. There are, however, numerous teachings about what one is to do with one's prosperity - take care of the poor, share with the less fortunate - and about the ethics with which the prosperity is obtained - are you fair with your employees, do you pay a livable wage, etc., etc. To me, what a ministry and it's leaders do with all their prosperity and how open they are about their prosperity is way way more important that the fact that they are prosperous. Prosperity teaching is not wrong as long as the responsibilites of prosperity are taught along with the perks. All to often, sadly, ministries and their leaders get caught up in the "lifestyle" and materialism that presents itself.



charityagape -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 2:16:29 PM)

quote:

yet Jesus Himself had nothing but the clothes on His back during His ministry.


So all ministers should have nothing but the clothes on their back so they can be more like Jesus?



notmycity -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 3:26:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: relady
...Jesus didn't actively teach against being prosperous. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates there is any inherent sinfulness in being prosperous or even wanting to be prosperous......


Most NT scripture casts mammon in a negative light. Please see below:

Matt 13:22
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
(KJV)

Matt 19:23
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(KJV)

Matt 19:24
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

James 1:9-11
9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
(KJV)

Matt 6:19-21
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(KJV)

Matt 6:24
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
(KJV)

Luke 12:33-34
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(KJV)

BTW, I’ve never heard the “positive confessors” speak of this passage either:

Heb 11:36-38
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
(KJV)



is5512 -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 7:30:40 PM)

Can't say I watch Joel, but just found out from someone who does that he starts out each program the same way his Dad used to. I will quote it here just to see if anyone has any fundamental objections to this specific doctrine: "This is my Bible. I am who it says I am. I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do." Objections?



figmentPez -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 8:04:56 PM)

quote:

"This is my Bible. I am who it says I am. I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do." Objections?


Yup. I'd much rather it be "This is God's message. I am who He says I am. I have what He says I have. I can do what He says I can do." The Bible is not a book of magic words to get quicker seating at restraunts or get passed over for tax audits, it is God's message of salvation, his commandments to us. The Bible is not the source, God is.



GPickypick -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 8:31:12 PM)

quote:

Just saying that sometimes we need to know what a particular scripture "looks like" in our own life.


Yeah, I agree. I just think the emphasis is overdone.

In the 1800s, you had many stale preachers who were more concerned about being proper than about making any impact in people's lives. There was no application. Now, the opposite problem is true, and the culprits are Osteen, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, etc.

I think God has given us godly leaders as examples to follow in our walk ("be imitators of us, as we are imitators of Christ"). A few specific examples can help, but of course, one can't cover every situation. But I think it's part of a pastor-teacher's job to inform the mind and the conscience of his hearer in order that they may know in truth, "What would Jesus do?".



AQuietPlace -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 8:50:35 PM)

To the detracting comments about Osteen & his ministry, I'm wondering if some of you making those posts should be checking out what scripture says about giving false testimony?! If one goes to the Lakewood Church's website, clicking on "What We Believe" will lead you to this statement, at the tope of the list:
*The Bible is the inspired and only infallible and authoritative Word of God. Salvation has been provided and is available for people through Jesus Christ. Through His sacrifice on the cross, we can die to our sinful nature and be born again to a new life of purity and power.*
Additionally, if you were to check the pages of the myriad ministries this church has maintained, you would find statements like these, for example:
*Our vision for the Children's Ministry is to establish in the hearts of the children an active faith toward God and His Word.* (Children)
*We as a group are here to learn not only to better ourselves but to help others in learning how to better themselves. We are all called to be Christ -like, and we complete this task by reaching out to Houston through monthly missions* (college and young singles)
*There is a tremendous peace and power in knowing your place and purpose in Jesus Christ. It is our prayer that you find in Lakewood's Youth Service a place where you can discover your purpose, be challenged, strengthened and inspired to pursue a personal relationship with Jesus* (Youth)
*Lakewood Church is a non-denominational Charismatic Church focused on making a positive impact upon the city of Houston by creating a citywide family center where all individuals and families can grow in faith and discover God's plan for their lives. We are also dedicated to serve as a worldwide Christian outreach center helping the nations experience *perfect peace* that comes from faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to the Holy Spirit.* (found under FAQ)
I ask: What more do you nay-sayers want? Someone mentioned that the altar call at the end of Osteen's sermons seemed too simplistic. Compared to what? Compared to Billy Graham's altar calls? And, just imagine the follow-up, mentoring, teaching, discipling that actually takes place at Lakewood, starting with a brief one on one meeting with the young senior pastor of thiat huge church. What in the world more do you want? **Edited by Moderator**



AQuietPlace -> RE: Joel Osteen? (5/4/2005 9:23:19 PM)

by the way, tonight on Lakewood's wednesday night teaching, you can hear a presentation on "Sexual Purity" and what is being taught is that anything other than consensual marital sex is against God's desires for our lives. Is that holy enough or strong enough (un "country club christianity" enough) for you? (you can watch it on the web at: http://www.lakewood.cc/a_v_library.htm

someone mentioned that only their family members pastor the church. that's not true. they have full time pastors of various colors who are very popular with the members. how many church can claim that?

you ought to be praying that he will succeed, mature, and yes, even prosper so that he can be an even greater blessing to others. that's scriptural too. **Edited by Moderator**



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