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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:06:04 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Matthew 19:10-12 The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
It's interesting how the remarriage proponents ignore the rest of this passage. No one has ever explained how the reaction (of shock) at Jesus' radical teaching lines up with the fact that we can divorce and remarry. His disciples (of all people) thought this was a hard teaching. There is nothing hard about being free to remarry after adultery. That is the world's way, which we are to respond the opposite of....as He just got through teaching in the Sermon on the Mount.
Another point on being continuous adultery... there would be no reason for the command to remain unmarried or be reconciled, if a remarriage would be a lawful marriage. I don't think He gave this command just to confuse us.
What is interesting is how conveniently short your memory is; the background of the passage and the reasons for the disciples response has been discussed many many times before. If you try the search function on this forum and search for the name "Hillel" you will find many of these discussions.
Please refresh my memory. How do you interpret these words specifically:
Mark 10:10-12 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:08:07 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3631
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Matthew 19:10-12 The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
It's interesting how the remarriage proponents ignore the rest of this passage. No one has ever explained how the reaction (of shock) at Jesus' radical teaching lines up with the fact that we can divorce and remarry. His disciples (of all people) thought this was a hard teaching. There is nothing hard about being free to remarry after adultery. That is the world's way, which we are to respond the opposite of....as He just got through teaching in the Sermon on the Mount.
Another point on being continuous adultery... there would be no reason for the command to remain unmarried or be reconciled, if a remarriage would be a lawful marriage. I don't think He gave this command just to confuse us.
What is interesting is how conveniently short your memory is; the background of the passage and the reasons for the disciples response has been discussed many many times before. If you try the search function on this forum and search for the name "Hillel" you will find many of these discussions.
Please refresh my memory. How do you interpret these words specifically:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
As a parallel account of the passage in Mt. 19.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:11:22 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 866
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
"The Saviour then commanded, 'What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder,' but man wishes to put asunder what God hath joined together, when, "falling away from the sound faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron, forbidding," not only to commit fornication, but 'to marry,' he dissolves even those who had been before joined together by the providence of God. Let these things then be said, keeping in view what is expressly said concerning the male and the female, and the man and the woman, as the Saviour taught in the answer to the Pharisees." Origen
According to the below... your interpretation of this verse doesn't line up with what Origen taught.
Summary of Early Church Doctrine on Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage 90 A.D. – 419 A.D.
1. If a spouse persists in adulterous behavior and there is no other
alternative, the marriage relationship can be terminated by the
innocent party. (Hermes, Clement, Jerome, Augustine)
2. Spouses that are divorced for any reason must remain celibate and
single as long as both spouses live. Remarriage is expressly
prohibited. (Hermes, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, Basil,
Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
3. To indulge in lust with the mind is to be guilty of adultery of the
heart. (Justin Martyr)
4. Whoever marries a divorced person commits adultery. (Hermes,
Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
5. Whoever contracts a second marriage, whether a Christian or not,
while a former spouse lives is sinning against God. (Justin Martyr,
Ambrose)
6. God does not, and the Church must not, take into account human
law when it is in violation of God’s law. (Justin Martyr, Origen,
Ambrose)
7. God judges motives and intentions, private thought life and
actions. (Justin Martyr)
8. The marriage covenant between a man and a woman is permanent,
as long as both husband and wife are alive. (Clement, Origen,
Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
9. It is a serious offence against God to take another person’s spouse.
(Basil)
10. The Church must charge all persons who are in possession of
another living person’s former husband or wife with adultery. (Basil)
11. Sexual relations are a marital right that is limited to one’s own
husband or wife. (Hermes, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, Basil,
Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
12. Sexual relations with one’s legitimate spouse protects from sexual
sin. (Ambrose)
13. Marriage and sexual relations with a remarried spouse while a
former spouse lives is the sin of adultery. (Hermes, Justin Martyr,
Clement, Origen, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
14. It is a serious mistake to believe that it is simply one’s right to
divorce a spouse and take another. Even though human law may
permit such a thing, God strictly forbids it, and cannot, and will not
honor it. (Clement, Origen, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
15. Anyone who follows human customs and laws regarding marriage,
divorce and remarriage, instead of God’s Divine instructions should
stand in fearful awe of God Himself. (Clement, Ambrose)
16. All lawmakers, in and out of the Church are warned, to their peril,
to hear and obey the Word of the Lord in regard to His commands on
marriage and divorce. (Ambrose)
17. Christians are to stop making excuses and trying to find
justification for divorce and remarriage. There are no valid reasons
acceptable to God. (Jerome, Augustine)
18. A marriage is for life. No matter what a spouse turns out to be, or
how they may act, what they do or don’t do, or the sins they commit,
the covenant remains fully in effect. A remarriage while a former
spouse lives is not marriage at all, but sinful adultery. God does not
divide the one flesh relationship except by physical death. (Hermes,
Clement, Origen, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
19. Marriage is a lifelong covenant that will never be invalidated by
God while both parties live. (Hermes, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen,
Basil, Ambrose, Augustine)
20. It never has been lawful, it is not now lawful, and it never will be
lawful to divorce and remarry. To say and do otherwise is to worship
and adopt the adulterous superstitions of a different God than the one
to which we have to do. (Augustine)
Source: http://www.marriagedivorce.com/mdebook.pdf
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:13:48 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
As a parallel account of the passage in Mt. 19.
You don't refute scripture with scripture. I asked that you give your "interpretation" of this specific verse:
Mark 10:10-12 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Matthew 19 focuses on His debate with the Old Covenant Pharisees, but I'm specifically interested in His teaching to His disciples which states there is no exception for them.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:22:24 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3631
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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You misinterpreted a few things the early church taught, and forgot a few things that the early church taught. You even forgot to include in your list what was taught by Origen in the quote I provided and to which you replied. Here are couple of the important teachings of the Early church that you missed. that the marriage bond can be dissolved, and that the unconverted can divorce and later remarry after conversion, etc...
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
"The Saviour then commanded, 'What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder,' but man wishes to put asunder what God hath joined together, when, "falling away from the sound faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron, forbidding," not only to commit fornication, but 'to marry,' he dissolves even those who had been before joined together by the providence of God. Let these things then be said, keeping in view what is expressly said concerning the male and the female, and the man and the woman, as the Saviour taught in the answer to the Pharisees." Origen
According to the below... your interpretation of this verse doesn't line up with what Origen taught.
Summary of Early Church Doctrine on Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage 90 A.D. – 419 A.D.
1. If a spouse persists in adulterous behavior and there is no other
alternative, the marriage relationship can be terminated by the
innocent party. (Hermes, Clement, Jerome, Augustine)
2. Spouses that are divorced for any reason must remain celibate and
single as long as both spouses live. Remarriage is expressly
prohibited. (Hermes, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, Basil,
Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
3. To indulge in lust with the mind is to be guilty of adultery of the
heart. (Justin Martyr)
4. Whoever marries a divorced person commits adultery. (Hermes,
Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
5. Whoever contracts a second marriage, whether a Christian or not,
while a former spouse lives is sinning against God. (Justin Martyr,
Ambrose)
6. God does not, and the Church must not, take into account human
law when it is in violation of God’s law. (Justin Martyr, Origen,
Ambrose)
7. God judges motives and intentions, private thought life and
actions. (Justin Martyr)
8. The marriage covenant between a man and a woman is permanent,
as long as both husband and wife are alive. (Clement, Origen,
Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
9. It is a serious offence against God to take another person’s spouse.
(Basil)
10. The Church must charge all persons who are in possession of
another living person’s former husband or wife with adultery. (Basil)
11. Sexual relations are a marital right that is limited to one’s own
husband or wife. (Hermes, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, Basil,
Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
12. Sexual relations with one’s legitimate spouse protects from sexual
sin. (Ambrose)
13. Marriage and sexual relations with a remarried spouse while a
former spouse lives is the sin of adultery. (Hermes, Justin Martyr,
Clement, Origen, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
14. It is a serious mistake to believe that it is simply one’s right to
divorce a spouse and take another. Even though human law may
permit such a thing, God strictly forbids it, and cannot, and will not
honor it. (Clement, Origen, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
15. Anyone who follows human customs and laws regarding marriage,
divorce and remarriage, instead of God’s Divine instructions should
stand in fearful awe of God Himself. (Clement, Ambrose)
16. All lawmakers, in and out of the Church are warned, to their peril,
to hear and obey the Word of the Lord in regard to His commands on
marriage and divorce. (Ambrose)
17. Christians are to stop making excuses and trying to find
justification for divorce and remarriage. There are no valid reasons
acceptable to God. (Jerome, Augustine)
18. A marriage is for life. No matter what a spouse turns out to be, or
how they may act, what they do or don’t do, or the sins they commit,
the covenant remains fully in effect. A remarriage while a former
spouse lives is not marriage at all, but sinful adultery. God does not
divide the one flesh relationship except by physical death. (Hermes,
Clement, Origen, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine)
19. Marriage is a lifelong covenant that will never be invalidated by
God while both parties live. (Hermes, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen,
Basil, Ambrose, Augustine)
20. It never has been lawful, it is not now lawful, and it never will be
lawful to divorce and remarry. To say and do otherwise is to worship
and adopt the adulterous superstitions of a different God than the one
to which we have to do. (Augustine)
Source: http://www.marriagedivorce.com/mdebook.pdf
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:34:39 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 866
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
Here are couple of the important teachings of the Early church that you missed. that the marriage bond can be dissolved, and that the unconverted can divorce and later remarry after conversion, etc...
That was in my list as well #5. Jerome and Ambrose addressed this... Ambrose specifically taught that conversion to Christianity forgives past sin but does NOT nullify or set aside God’s laws.
Where in the world do you see that they taught divorce can dissolve a marriage? Please don't use that Origen quote again because I already listed what he taught......that it was for life in all cases and remarriage was never an option.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:40:29 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3631
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Here are couple of the important teachings of the Early church that you missed. that the marriage bond can be dissolved, and that the unconverted can divorce and later remarry after conversion, etc...
That was in my list as well #5. Jerome and Ambrose addressed this... Ambrose specifically taught that conversion to Christianity forgives past sin but does NOT nullify or set aside God’s laws.
Please provide the quote, and not your interpretation of it.
quote:
Where in the world do you see that they taught divorce can dissolve a marriage? Please don't use that Origen quote again because I already listed what he taught......that it was for life in all cases and remarriage was never an option.
How in the world did you get that out of Origin's statement? Oh, wait I know; he could have possibly meant anything else.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:59:11 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 866
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
Please provide the quote, and not your interpretation of it.
Ambrose of Milan wrote:
"But what shall I say about chastity, when only one and no second
union is allowed? As regards marriage, the law is, not to marry
again, nor to seek union with another wife. It seems strange to many
why impediment should be caused by a second marriage entered on
before baptism, so as to prevent election to the clerical office, and to
the reception of the gift of ordination; seeing that even crimes are
not wont to stand in the way, if they have been put away in the
sacrament of baptism.
But we must learn, that in baptism sin can be forgiven, but law
cannot be abolished. In the case of marriage there is no sin, but
there is a law. Whatever sin there is can be put away, whatever law
there is cannot be laid aside in marriage.- On the duties of Clergy:1:257
(a)"
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 11/15/2008 10:08:37 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 10:00:55 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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So again benelchi goes silent when asked a direct question. May we therefore assume that you cannot give an explanation for how these specific verses will supposedly fit what you are claiming because they won't?:
Mark 10:10-12 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 10:07:32 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 866
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: online
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Benelchi:
Since you are so fond of Origen's teachings... I'm wondering why you reject this part? He interpreted Matthew 5:32 and Romans 7 the same way I do.
Origen wrote:
"For confessedly he who puts away his wife when she is not a fornicator, makes her an adulteress, so far as it lies with him, for if, "when the husband is living she shall be called an adulteress if she be joined to another man;" and when by putting her away, he gives to her the excuse of a second marriage, very plainly in this way he makes her an adulteress…
Just as a woman is an adulteress, even though she seems to be married to a man, while a former husband yet lives, so also the man who seems to marry who has been divorced does not marry her, but, according to the declaration of our Savior, he commits adultery with her.(Commentaries on Matthew 14) (a)"
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 11:01:39 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 866
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
There only seems to be 2 on this thread that seems to be posting the same thing, over and over...and cant seem to convince anyone that they are right. I think that alone says alot.
There have been plenty more that have come and gone here that were in agreement with us... they are just not here right now. I know many many people who believe in the permanency of marriage. Many who are divorced and remaining faithful to their vows because they see no other option (even if their spouse has "married" another). They see themselves as still married in God's eyes. They would not choose this hard of a road if they were not convicted that this is truth. Trust me.... they LOOKED for the loopholes and found none. If they were trying to twist God's Word... they wouldn't be making it say this. I think that speaks much more...
I also know of many who WERE IN adulterous remarriages and were convicted by God that they were committing adultery with someone else's spouse or against their true spouse, and they repented and got out of those unions... that speaks voumes as well to me. http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html
If it is the "popular" teaching... well, Jesus' teachings were never popular. He told us the world would hate His message... so if someone hates the message, that probably means it's in line with His.
Have you studied the earliest church teachings? As I just referenced they didn't teach anything that even resembles what the other side here is teaching. They taught that remarriage was forbidden in all cases and all remarriages were adulteress affairs and not marriages. So you are taking the opinion of some folks whose credentials you don't even know over the teachings of those from almost 2000 years ago who lived in closest proximity to Jesus and the Apostles and who were fluent in Greek?
The modern church's position in the last century is so far away from what was originally taught virtually unanimously for centuries... that alone should give one reason to use caution. I highly recommend Dr. Joseph Webb's new book Divorce and Remarriage: The Trojan Horse within the Church. It is very enlightening and explains how this false doctrine infiltrated the church.
Just around 100 years ago RA Torrey, called it legalized adultery...
"Look at the legalized adultery we call divorce. Men marry one wife after another and are still admitted into good society; and women do likewise. There are thousands of supposedly respectable men in American living with other men's wives, and thousands of supposedly respectable women living with other women's husbands." - R. A. Torrey From R.A. Torrey's book How to Pray, pages 94-95
R.A. Torrey (1856-1928) was a very well-known Christian writer, evangelist, pastor, graduate of Yale University, and was also the superintendent of Moody Bible Institute for 19 years.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 11/15/2008 11:15:55 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 11:10:18 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
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And I know many who have gone through divorce, remarried today, and serving the Lord faithfully...and they did not look for loopholes as you call it, rather they followed God's lead and allowed Him to bless them with the lovng spouses they have today. And no, they are not living in sin. I think one should be very careful when pointing a finger at people, especially when you do not know them, what they have been through and most of all, passing judgment on a person.
I once heard someone say, "You are always going to run across people who are going to try and find fault with whats going on in your life, something they dont agree with, but we must always remember, we are not seeking man's approval, but God's approval and when we have been approved by Him...that's where true peace and joy comes from."
Good night. 
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 11:15:24 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I think Benelchi is accurate in everything he post here, including alot of wisdom and knowledge of the Word with correct interpretation. There only seems to be 2 on this thread that seems to be posting the same thing, over and over...and cant seem to convince anyone that they are right. I think that alone says alot.
It was the majority that called for the crucifixion of Christ while the few who stood by His side. He Himself said that the many are on the broad way that leads to destruction while only the few have truly come to know Him. Therefore consensus is not indicative of truth and often the opposite is the case.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 11:19:18 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
And I know many who have gone through divorce, remarried today, and serving the Lord faithfully...and they did not look for loopholes as you call it, rather they followed God's lead and allowed Him to bless them with the lovng spouses they have today. And no, they are not living in sin. I think one should be very careful when pointing a finger at people, especially when you do not know them, what they have been through and most of all, passing judgment on a person.
I once heard someone say, "You are always going to run across people who are going to try and find fault with whats going on in your life, something they dont agree with, but we must always remember, we are not seeking man's approval, but God's approval and when we have been approved by Him...that's where true peace and joy comes from."
Good night.
So you don't consider adultery to be a sin?
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 11:21:29 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 866
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
I think one should be very careful when pointing a finger at people, especially when you do not know them, what they have been through and most of all, passing judgment on a person.
It is not wrong to use righteous judgment and we are even called to judge within the church. It is not wrong to judge/discern based on God's Word. If Jesus says something is adultery, who am I to say it's not?
If a man was having an affair there would be no doubt that he must repent and forsake his sin (and no one would accuse us of "judging" by concluding that). The same goes for homosexual relationships, and fornication. But somehow this sin of remarriage adultery has earned "exempt" status in the church.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 11:35:10 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
I think one should be very careful when pointing a finger at people, especially when you do not know them, what they have been through and most of all, passing judgment on a person.
It is not wrong to use righteous judgment and we are even called to judge within the church. It is not wrong to judge/discern based on God's Word. If Jesus says something is adultery, who am I to say it's not?
If a man was having an affair there would be no doubt that he must repent and forsake his sin (and no one would accuse us of "judging" by concluding that). The same goes for homosexual relationships, and fornication. But somehow this sin of remarriage adultery has earned "exempt" status in the church.
Proverbs 27:5-6 Better is open rebuke Than love that is concealed. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.
Proverbs 28:23 He who rebukes a man will afterward find more favor Than he who flatters with the tongue.
2 Thessalonians 3:6-7 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you
1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Matthew 7:1-5 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
Luke 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Matthew 18:15-17 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
II Thessalonians 3:13-15 But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Romans 16:17-18 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
2 Timothy 4:1-5 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 12:15:28 AM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Careening back to the topic of the OP....
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 10:00:37 AM
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1957Hedgehog
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We worship an all loving God. If we believe God is love and we believe He has forgiven us our sins through the redeeming life-death-life of Jesus, then adultery is forgiven upon our repentance. God has called us to live at peace (1 Cor 7:15).
But does every divorce produce adultery? I think not. Hardened hearts (Matt 19:8). Unfaithful situations (Matt 5:32). Unbelieving spouse (1 Cor 7:15).
Jesus says he fulfills all the Laws and requirements of the prophets. But Jesus also says the Laws and prophets are still valid. Including Moses. Does Jesus invalidate the Law of Moses? So is someone with a hard heart permitted to divorce?
And we must define “marital unfaithfulness”. We should agree Jesus is saying sexual unfaithfulness would allow divorce without adultery (Matt 5:32), but what about violence or abuse in the home? Is that not “marital unfaithfulness”? What if the spouse changes sexual orientation? What if sexual relations completely stop? What if mental relations completely stop? What if love stops? Could we not agree these examples produce a lost faith in the marriage?
And Paul permits a believer to allow an unbeliever to leave. The reason is simple: God wants us to leave in peace.
Whether a divorce situation is adultery or not is between the believer and God. It is not for man to come between the believer and God. God will convict the believer through the Holy Spirit. Man will not be completely privy to what goes on in the heart of another believer.
In my case, God has sanctified my current marriage regardless of past divorces my wife and I have experienced. God has told me so. God has directed this union out of love and a desire to give me and my wife His peace. Our non-believer ex-spouses had both committed marital unfaithfulness, and God led us out of those unfaithful marriages straight into this marriage of faith, love, peace, and life with Jesus.
I will not allow another man to tell me I and my wife are adulterers because God has sanctified my marriage and Jesus leads us in our spiritually married life. And my wife and I are fulfilling our God directed calling to bring our children to Him through the Throne of Jesus. God used our faith in a mighty and holy way to help lead 3 of our children to accept Jesus as their savior and redeemer. We and our children are still a “work in progress”, and God would have us continue His great work in ourselves and our children.
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Better together <><
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 11:48:05 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1957Hedgehog
We worship an all loving God. If we believe God is love and we believe He has forgiven us our sins through the redeeming life-death-life of Jesus, then adultery is forgiven upon our repentance. God has called us to live at peace (1 Cor 7:15).
Repentance means changing ones mind and turning from the sin, so repentance from a relationship that God calls adulterous must involve ending the extramarital relationship.
quote:
But does every divorce produce adultery? I think not. Hardened hearts (Matt 19:8). Unfaithful situations (Matt 5:32). Unbelieving spouse (1 Cor 7:15).
Matt. 19:8 says that because the Jews were hard hearted God permitted a type of "divorce" for Old Covenant people, but by definition New Covenant people have had their hearts renewed and sanctified by God's Spirit so a hard hearted christian is an oxymoron. Matt. 5 32 states that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity as the Old Covenant Law permitted, was making their wives commit adultery. That is not an allowance for divorce but rather a condemnation against the perfidious Jewish men who were doing so, and saying that they were causing their innocent wives to commit adultery through their treacherous behavior of divorcing them. It also says that the man who married the woman wrongly divorced by her husband was himself committing adultery by marring the divorced woman, which proves that divorce does not separate the marriage bond.
1 Cor 7:15 says that a christian is not bound to dwell with an unbeliever who refuses to dwell with him or her, but if you read the entire passage it does say that we are still bound to them by covenant for as long as they live, and must either remain unmarried or else reconcile with them:
1 Corinthians 7: 10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
quote:
Jesus says he fulfills all the Laws and requirements of the prophets. But Jesus also says the Laws and prophets are still valid. Including Moses. Does Jesus invalidate the Law of Moses? So is someone with a hard heart permitted to divorce?
He fulfills them by writing them on our hearts and minds so that we are bound to Spirit rather than the letter:
Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Romans 7:1-6 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
2 Corinthians 3:2-3 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
6-8 Who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
14-18 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The Old Covenant Law of divorce and stoning was given to hard hearted people who could not receive Christ because of the veil over their hard hearts which is lifted by the Spirit of God in the New Covenant. Children of God show grace and mercy as He did to us, rather than stoning and divorcing those who wrong us, because that is the Spirit of love that the Laws written in stone could never acheive, since we have the Spirit of the Law written on our Heart by His Spirit.
quote:
And we must define “marital unfaithfulness”. We should agree Jesus is saying sexual unfaithfulness would allow divorce without adultery (Matt 5:32), but what about violence or abuse in the home?
First of all the term that you are wrongly calling “marital unfaithfulness” is "porneia" and doesn't imply "marital" anything. The Greek word for marital unfaithfulness or adultery is "moichaō", and that is the sin Jesus says one is committing in remarriage and not the cause of it:
Mark 10:11-12 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery (moichaō) against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery (moichaō)."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery (moichaō), and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery (moichaō).”
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity (porneia), makes her commit adultery (moichaō); and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery (moichaō).
Secondly, if you read the verse you site, it doesn't at all say "porneia would allow divorce without adultery" but actually says the woman who did not at all commit "porneia" was made to commit adultery by her husband divorcing her unjustly, and that the man who subsequently married her is having extramarital relations with another man's spouse despite the fact that he divorced her. That is the opposite of what you're attempting to claim here.
quote:
Is that not “marital unfaithfulness”? What if the spouse changes sexual orientation? What if sexual relations completely stop? What if mental relations completely stop? What if love stops? Could we not agree these examples produce a lost faith in the marriage?
Your entire argument is based on a false definition of the term, and thus all of your conclusions are equally faulty. That statement was in regard to Old Covenant people regarding the Laws of Moses, which I assume you are not adhering to, and beyond that it was a very specific Law regarding a woman found guilty of fornication when her husband married her, so you are not even presenting the Law properly if you were living according to them.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 12:15:01 PM
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