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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 11:19:55 AM
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tn1
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
"A Text without a Context is a Pretext - as assumed interpretation that often misses the author's intent." What you've quoted is a Text without a Context and thus it is a Pretext. You assume an interpretation, but you're likely missing what Jesus intended.
So Jesus intended to mean something other than..."Everyone who divorces and marries another commits adultery?" and something other than "everyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery?"
I understand how to rightly divide the Word using proper hermeneutics. A doctrine should be built around the clear and consistent verses that have no other possible meaning- not the other way around. It doesn't get any clearer than Luke 16:18, so one must reconcile every other verse with it and the other clear verses, and allow scripture to interpret scripture.
Of course, you're assuming that "Everyone who divorces and marries another commits adultery" is a correct interpretation. And if that was a correct intepretation, I'd agree with you; but it's not.
Note that in vs. 17 Jesus first endorses the Law of Moses saying that "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Law to fail (cease)." So we must assume that Jesus fully endorsed the Mosaic Law, including the bill of divorce. Thus when He goes on to say, "Whoever who puts away (apoluo) his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries her that is put away commits adultery", it must line up with the Law of Moses.
Note that the word "put away" (apoluo) can either mean "separation" or "divorce" (if given with a bill of divorce). Also note that this passage does not mention the bill of divorce, the defining element of Jewish divorces. So this passage must be speaking about seperation, not divorce; otherwise Jesus would be countering the Law of Moses which He just strongly affirmed.
In other words, a thought for thought translation of Luke 16:18 would be, "Whoever expells his wife (without giving her a bill of divorce) and marries another woman commits adultery; and whoever marries a woman who has been expelled (but not divorced) commits adultery."
Jesus was denouncing men expelling their wives and not giving them a bill of divorce. This was an wicked, selfish, hard-hearted, mean-spirited, evil practice that was very oppressive of women. Why would a man do such a thing? 1) To keep from paying the dowry and 2) to be hateful towards his wife!
Jesus fully endorsed the Law of Moses saying that not the least letter of the Law would cease until heaven and earth disappear. Speaking to a Jewish audience that would not have even questioned this concept, one must assume that Jesus fully endorsed the Mosaic Bill of Divorce and thus not countering Moses but explaining the Spirit beneath and purpose of the Law, helping to fulfill it's purpose to make Israel a city set on a hill, a country blessed by God that all men would be drawn to too know the wisdom, truth, and love of God.
Furthermore, Jesus, being sent primarily to the Jews, was dealing with cultural issues of that day so we must be careful to understand what was going on in that day and not ignore the culture to which he spoke. Sadly, modern translations tear his words from their context and misintepret them to mean something Jesus never meant!
< Message edited by tn1 -- 10/1/2008 1:30:37 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 11:33:27 AM
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tn1
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
I really don't believe Jesus would make the truth so difficult that we would have to know Hebrew or be a scholar to get what He meant, instead of just being able to experience revelation from reading His Word.
Jesus doesn't make truth difficult to understand; what makes truth difficult to understand is our twisted traditions, errant beliefs, and wrong attitudes. These keep us from being open to correction, diligently studing the Word to uncover truth that we haven't seen before and to deliver us from errant beliefs, and it keeps us from hearing from the Spirit.
Knowing Hebrew and Greek are tools to help us dig out the Truth that has been buried by our errant traditions. Of course, if we don't know Greek or Hebrew, it would be wise of us to honor those who do and listen to what they may be able to teach us. We're in this thing together and we should all be able to learn from one another.
Relationship with God is not that complicated though and boils down to Love God and Love one another as we Love ourselves.
< Message edited by tn1 -- 10/1/2008 4:01:20 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 11:46:41 AM
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tn1
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
As for the rest of your post, there really is no need for me to respond for you misrepresent what I believe and seem to just divert the discussion by making fallacious statements and personal attacks. And I'm not going to get into that.
I'm dealing with the issue at hand and your position, and have not written anything regarding you personally, so I have no idea what you're referring to.
SealedEternal
The following statement is just one example of a disrespectful, argumentative comment.
quote:
So all of our Bibles are wrong and you are right in contradicting them? That sounds like you are founding your own cult, because if I need you to tell me that every Bible I have access to means the opposite of what it says, then I'd have to reject God's Word and put blind faith in you alone.
SealedEternal
I've never asked you or anyone to put "blind faith" in me, and I'm certainly not "founding a cult". I have presented information that you can verify elsewhere if you wish to research it. If you're not open to information and concepts new to you, well there really is no need in you even reading my posts much less us discussing things further. And I certainly have not said that every Bible you have access to "means the opposite of what it says." Such statements misrepresent what I've presented, are disrespectful, and argumentative. I could go back through your other posts and pull together more examples of such fallacious, disrespectful, and argumentative comments, but such would be useless, I think. I'd prefer to move on and not discuss this further with you.
< Message edited by tn1 -- 10/1/2008 11:55:08 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 1:57:01 PM
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tn1
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The Get (Jewish Bill of Divorce)
Not only were men not giving their expelled wives bills of divorce a problem in 1st century Judaism, but it is even a problem today among Orthodox Jews. An Orthodox Jewish woman who is separated from her husband cannot remarry in the Orthodox Jewish community without receiving a Jewish Bill of Divorce from her ex-husband even though she has gone through a civil divorce. Orthodox Jews do not recognize Gentile civil authority over mdr; rather, they insist that the couple go through their religious ritual of divorce with a Jewish scribe writting The Get, the Jewish bill of divorce. If anyone would like to read a modern memoir of a Jewish divorce, "The Get" by Elise Edelson Katch is an interesting read. Even today, some Orthodox Jewish men refuse to give their ex-wives a "Get" causing some serious emotional and religious termoil.
The Jews fail to recognize that the bill of divorce was originally a private/domestic affair with very limited civil oversight as ordered by Moses for the new nation of Israel. Rather, they've made divorce a religious event under Jewish religious authority and do not recognize Gentile civil authority.
I believe that God inspired Moses to put divorce under limited civil authority for the nation of Israel as an example of how it should operate in other nations under limited civil authority. The Jews continue to have this problem because they do not recognize this.
< Message edited by tn1 -- 10/1/2008 3:57:33 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 8:48:42 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
I've never asked you or anyone to put "blind faith" in me, and I'm certainly not "founding a cult". I have presented information that you can verify elsewhere if you wish to research it.
You've claimed that every English Bible translated the verses you disagree with wrongly, and I have researched it and they are correct in their translation and it is you that is misstating them. You want us to deny the Bible and take your word that it doesn't mean what it says, and that in fact is how cults are created.
quote:
If you're not open to information and concepts new to you, well there really is no need in you even reading my posts much less us discussing things further.
I am open to true information with evidence, but what you are doing is presenting misinformation and telling people that their Bibles really don't mean what they say, because it contradicts what you are teaching.
quote:
And I certainly have not said that every Bible you have access to "means the opposite of what it says." Such statements misrepresent what I've presented, are disrespectful, and argumentative.
Do you believe scripture means:
"A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married", or a wife is not bound as long as her husband lives; and she is free to be married even if he is alive? (1 Corinthians 7:39)
"A wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband", or that she doesn't have to remain unmarried and that she may remarry? (1 Corinthians 7:11)
"Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her" or that someone may divorce and remarry and not commit adultery? (Mark 10:11)
"If she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery" or if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is not necessarily committing adultery? (Mark 10:12)
"Whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery", or whoever marries a divorced woman is not necessarily commiting adultery? (Matthew 5:32)
Do you believe the Biblical quotes or the opposite of what they say?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/1/2008 9:06:13 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
So though the Greek word/concept "betrothed, espoused" is used to describe the time between Joseph and Mary's marriage through the establishment of the marriage covenant, and the time that the would cohabitate, it does not mean that they were only engaged and not legally married. Mary and Joseph were legally married though they had not slept together and did not cohabitate.
The Jewish concept of "betrothal" (aras) is significantly different from our modern day understanding of "betrothal". For the Jews, a couple who were "betrothed" were legally married.
I've already showed you that is false:
Deuteronomy 20:7 'And who is the man that is betrothed to a woman and has not married her? Let him depart and return to his house, otherwise he might die in the battle and another man would marry her.'
They were bound together by covenant and called husband and wife from the time of the betrothal covenant, but they were not yet married. You are correct that in Jewish marriages they were often betrothed for a year before actually coming together, but they weren't married until he took her under his authority and became one with her. Yes they still required a form of "divorce" to end the betrothal covenant, which was covered in the Old Covenant Law:
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
A woman that was a virgin when her husband married her could not be divorced but must "remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days", so there were no "divorces" allowable after the betrothal period ended and he didn't challenge her virginity, or if he did and she proved she was one. Originally the woman who was not a virgin when her husband married her was to be "divorced" by stoning:
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 "But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
Then an additional regulation was added permitting a certificate of divorce rather than stoning, with the stipulation that he could not take her back if she married again:
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man's wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
This is what Joseph intended to use because he believed that Mary had fornicated prior to his marrying her:
Matthew 1:18-19 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
This is also what Jesus said was the only allowance for "divorce" to Old Covenant people:
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity (porneia), makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Matthew 19:3-9 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you (Old Covenant Pharisees) to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you (Old Covenant Pharisees), whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication (porneia), and marries another woman commits adultery."
We have scriptural evidence that "porneia" that Jesus said is the only allowance for divorce without committing adultery in remarriage was the proper Greek term for betrothal fornication:
John 8:41 "You (Pharisees) are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him (Jesus), "We were not born of fornication (porneia); we have one Father: God."
The Pharisees accused Jusus' mother of being guilty of premarital fornication (porneia) because she was pregnant while betrothed to Joseph. If they were "married" that would have been an absurd allegation, but clearly according to scripture betrothed couples are not married:
Deuteronomy 20:7 'And who is the man that is betrothed to a woman and has not married her? Let him depart and return to his house, otherwise he might die in the battle and another man would marry her.'
When speaking to His New Covenant disciples on the other hand, Jesus specifically said there are no exceptions whatsoever:
Mark 10:10-12 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Even His own disciples were shocked to discover that the marriage bond was indissolvable:
Matthew 19:10-12 The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 5:34:25 AM
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the_silver_cup
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
When speaking to His New Covenant disciples on the other hand, Jesus specifically said there are no exceptions whatsoever:
Mark 10:10-12 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Even His own disciples were shocked to discover that the marriage bond was indissolvable:
Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Oh, adultery a matter of the heart?
Three verses later:
Matthew 5:31-32
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Now if one is adultery and the other is adultery, why is one forgiven by confessing and repenting of the sin, not to do it again, and the other not? There are also reasons for divorce that have nothing to do with desiring to commit adultery. Right or wrong, it happens...and none of those verses spell out the idea that divorced people are still married, even if married to another. This is being pressed onto the text. If God doesn't recognize divorce, why is the divorce even an issue? Answer: because it is a dissolution.
When one spouse divorces another and marries another, if it's adultery, how is that not cause for the legitimate divorce, freeing the divorced from the marriage (as if they weren't freed by the divorce in the first place)? Surely you realize that now a woman can divorce a man. The likelihood of being handed a signed affidavit confessing to adultery is very low.
By the way, Sealed Eternal, I checked out the website you link at the bottom of your posts. That sin of "most all men's shoe styles are worn with regularity by women" in the "Who wears the pants?" section--is the first time I've seen that one. I think it helps put your posts in perspective.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 6:43:00 AM
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car2ner
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Thanks for reminding us to click on the added links, silver_cup. It has been awhile since I have visited Sealed's website. I used to check those links of most posters because it allowed to find out more about a poster's mindset than space or the TOS would allow.
BTW, the information about the Get was posted a long time ago. That poster no longer participates in this thread although he/she may lurk. Thank you for bringing it up again, Tn1.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:30:13 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4477
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: the_silver_cup
By the way, Sealed Eternal, I checked out the website you link at the bottom of your posts. That sin of "most all men's shoe styles are worn with regularity by women" in the "Who wears the pants?" section--is the first time I've seen that one. I think it helps put your posts in perspective.
agreed. i think it's very revealing that many of the views held by the very small (but very vocal) anti-remarriage minority are very extreme to the point of discrediting any current "argument" they make regarding this issue.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:33:39 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9048
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: the_silver_cup
By the way, Sealed Eternal, I checked out the website you link at the bottom of your posts. That sin of "most all men's shoe styles are worn with regularity by women" in the "Who wears the pants?" section--is the first time I've seen that one. I think it helps put your posts in perspective.
agreed. i think it's very revealing that many of the views held by the very small (but very vocal) anti-remarriage minority are very extreme to the point of discrediting any current "argument" they make regarding this issue.
I agree as well. I encourage all readers to click on the link in Sealed's posts. It is a very enlightening read.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:49:07 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4477
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Oldwing
I was married and divorced and remarried before I was born-again. My pastor tells me my first marriage doesn't fall under biblical law as it was not of Christ. Therefore it is my current marriage that is the true marriage in the eyes of God as we became Christians while married.
right ... you are a new creature ... do not let yourself feel condemned by reading some of these posts ...
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 9:55:05 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7720
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From: New Jersey
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
I want to be very clear about something.
The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of Remarriage After Divorce.
It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.
I have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.
If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then I must request that you stay out of the thread.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://budurl.com/CWonFacebook
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 11:04:16 AM
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keepingfaith
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tn1,
Are you saying we can divorce our spouse for any reason as long as we give them a certificate? So I can divorce my spouse because their eyes aren’t blue and I really meant I preferred blue eyes when I vowed forever?
Divorce is sin. It is breaking vows to God and our spouse and rebellion against Him going against His clear commands not to. It is a result of on-going unforgiveness and bitterness. It is seeking revenge, instead of turning the other cheek. It is permanently cutting someone off and closing the door to reconciliation. It is not showing the unconditional love that should abide in our hearts if we are in Christ. He tells us not to even come to Him until we’ve been reconciled to our brother. He tells us not to cast stones unless we are without sin- using the very example of an adulteress.
So what you are saying is that even though God says it is sin, in many ways… He gives us a “legal” way to commit this sin? So He wants us to be in rebellion against Him? So God is saying… you are going to be in rebellion against me for doing this, but here’s how you can be in "legal" rebellion? Something that’s against His clearly expressed will? That sure makes God sound double-minded.
I’m really having trouble processing this concept.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 10/2/2008 11:29:51 AM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 12:18:45 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 870
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quote:
agreed. i think it's very revealing that many of the views held by the very small (but very vocal) anti-remarriage minority are very extreme to the point of discrediting any current "argument" they make regarding this issue.
When one has to resort to personal attacks that is very telling...
I know many many women who believe in the permanency of marriage who are remaining faithful to their vows to the Lord even though their spouse isn’t. They were not influenced by man, they were convicted by God’s Word alone that they are still married in His eyes til death- even if their husband has “married” another. It is only by the conviction of God that someone would remain faithful for 10, 20, 30 years to a spouse who is not with them.
There are families who’ve been restored after 25 years because of a faithful obedient spouse who stood with Jesus and prayed for reconciliation. Hearing the stories of how much joy and healing there is for the children is very touching.
I also know of many cases where those in second marriages have come to the truth and forsaken those unions in repentance. They will also tell you they were convicted by God’s Word alone. Most of them citing Romans 7:2-3 as the revelation that they were living with someone else’s spouse or still bound to their first spouse.
This might look like the minority view today, but that’s because the modern church has chosen to ignore what the Bible says about marriage and divorce, and is filled with teachers who will tell us what our itching ears want to hear- just like scripture says. Church discipline is no longer practiced and there is no way to shepherd a flock in a megachurch and I think they prefer it that way.
I am encouraged by the Pastors who are studying this deeper and not just adopting the theology that’s been passed down to them. Many are coming to this and repenting of their false teachings and are boldly speaking truth now.
Here is one such Pastor and this new book in pdf below is an incredible read.
http://www.wisereaction.org/ebooks/have_you_not_read.pdf
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 10/2/2008 12:38:56 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 12:21:08 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
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Who's attacking? Sealed is the one with the link. He wants people to read his website. Well, so do we.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 12:56:34 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Who's attacking? Sealed is the one with the link. He wants people to read his website. Well, so do we.
I don't consider this view of marriage...extreme. I consider it God's view, and when we know His character- it makes perfect sense. I don't consider elevating marriage to the level of esteem that God has as extreme. Especially when He made it a sign of His covenant with His people.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 1:13:16 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9048
Joined: 9/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
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Who's attacking? Sealed is the one with the link. He wants people to read his website. Well, so do we.
I don't consider this view of marriage...extreme. I consider it God's view, and when we know His character- it makes perfect sense. I don't consider elevating marriage to the level of esteem that God has as extreme. Especially when He made it a sign of His covenant with His people.
Okay, you don't. But, in others' opinions, including mine, it is. To say that I think it's extreme isn't attacking. Posters who disagree with your position have been accused of all kinds of far worse things in this thread. Trying to justify our sins being one of them. Having your interpretation viewed as and called extreme can hardly be referred to as attacking in the context of this particular thread.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 1:34:27 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4477
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
Hearing the stories of how much joy and healing there is for the children is very touching.
hearing the anti-remarriage group encourage people to abandon their second spouse who they've had children with in some misguided misinterpration of scripture in hopes that their remarried ex-spouse might suddenly have a change of heart is very disturbing to me, not touching.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 1:36:24 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4477
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
This might look like the minority view today, but that’s because the modern church has chosen to ignore what the Bible says about marriage and divorce, and is filled with teachers who will tell us what our itching ears want to hear- just like scripture says. Church discipline is no longer practiced and there is no way to shepherd a flock in a megachurch and I think they prefer it that way.
many more small churches than megachurches preach against these views you preface. sorry try again.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 2:36:09 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 3028
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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Are you saying we can divorce our spouse for any reason as long as we give them a certificate? So I can divorce my spouse because their eyes aren’t blue and I really meant I preferred blue eyes when I vowed forever?
Divorce is sin. It is breaking vows to God and our spouse and rebellion against Him going against His clear commands not to. It is a result of on-going unforgiveness and bitterness. It is seeking revenge, instead of turning the other cheek. It is permanently cutting someone off and closing the door to reconciliation. It is not showing the unconditional love that should abide in our hearts if we are in Christ. He tells us not to even come to Him until we’ve been reconciled to our brother. He tells us not to cast stones unless we are without sin- using the very example of an adulteress.
I doubt any of us support the idea that someone should divorce over something as flippant as eye color.
Please stop telling everyone what a divorced person's motivations are? You do not know their heart or their thoughts, hopes and dreams. You do not know why they do what they do unless they tell you, and even then, you only know what they told you... which is only part of the story. Divorce folks can forgive without living under the same roof, for instance.
I understand the explanations of how some see the scriptures stating No Remarriage This Side of Death. I still would not make blanket statements. That is not only stone throwing but tossing rocks willy nilly at a very wide target.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 3:48:55 PM
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tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
tn1,
Are you saying we can divorce our spouse for any reason as long as we give them a certificate? So I can divorce my spouse because their eyes aren’t blue and I really meant I preferred blue eyes when I vowed forever?
On this thread, I don't recall discussing moral or immoral reasons for divorce. I've simply set forth my understanding of various verses of scripture, covered some related historical and cultural issues, and discussed a couple of principles like marriage being breakable, not indissoluble.
Of course, one immoral reason Jesus mentioned was if a man or woman divorces his/her spouse in order to marry another, such was adulterous (Mark 10:11-12).
Based on their interpretation of Moses' laws concerning divorce, the Jews developed two categories of divorce, those for morally acceptable reasons (consistantly breaking expectations of the marriage covenant/contract), and divorces for selfish morally non-acceptable reasons. Divorces for morally non-acceptable reasons were called "hateful divorces".
Such hateful divorces are strongly denounced in scripture; in fact in Mal. 2, husbands who hatefully divorce their spouses were strongly chastised by the Lord who said He was even refusing to hear their prayers or accept their sacrifices, calling them to repent and become covenant keepers instead of covenant breakers.
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Divorce is sin. It is breaking vows to God and our spouse and rebellion against Him going against His clear commands not to. It is a result of on-going unforgiveness and bitterness. It is seeking revenge, instead of turning the other cheek. It is permanently cutting someone off and closing the door to reconciliation. It is not showing the unconditional love that should abide in our hearts if we are in Christ. He tells us not to even come to Him until we’ve been reconciled to our brother. He tells us not to cast stones unless we are without sin- using the very example of an adulteress.
Divorce is not alwasy sin in an of itself; but it is always the result of sin. Ultimately what causes divorces is spouses hardening their hearts against eachother. It takes two to make a marriage, but it only takes one to destroy a marriage. Of course we need to walk in forgiveness, but there does come a point in some relationships where they become toxic, and to remain in such a toxic relationship only empowers selfishness (codependency).
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So what you are saying is that even though God says it is sin, in many ways… He gives us a “legal” way to commit this sin? So He wants us to be in rebellion against Him? So God is saying… you are going to be in rebellion against me for doing this, but here’s how you can be in "legal" rebellion? Something that’s against His clearly expressed will? That sure makes God sound double-minded.
I’m really having trouble processing this concept.
No, what I'm saying is that scripture does not indicate that all divorces are sin; rather divorces are the result of sin and can be sinful in and of themselves. Just like killing someone, murder is sinful but killing someone to protect your family is not sinful. Or divorce could be compared to amputation; if you're going to die from gangrene in your leg, the doctor might amputate your leg to save your life, but you shouldn't go around hacking people's legs off!
Jesus spoke to a few specific problems in Jewish culture related to divorce. The primary problem he spoke against was men expelling their wives but refusing to divorce them; such was adulterous. He also spoke against men or women divorcing their spouse so that they could marry another, again an issue of motivation of the heart. Jesus dealt with issues of the heart, but did not try to change civil law. Such was not his mission.
Sadly, the early Gentile church misunderstood and misinterpreted Jesus' statements concerning divorce and developed a doctrine of mdr that has not and cannot empower people to have healthy marriages for it removes accountability and promotes codependency. So even though the church for over 1000 years has taught that marriage is indissoluble and all divorces are sinful, the divorce rate among Christians is as high as the divorce rate among non-Christians. Errant doctrine cannot empower people to have healthy lasting marriages. Marriage is breakable and we need to treat it with the respect due something that is fragile and irreplaceable, especially marriages with children!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/2/2008 4:16:14 PM
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tn1
Posts: 167
Joined: 9/22/2008
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