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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 8:18:30 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2121
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: the_silver_cup
quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
Context...context...context. If you have divorced your lawful husband or wife; you are to try to return - this is repentance. If he or she wont accept you, thats on them - you remain single. But don't marry another - thats adultery...adultery in heart and body - from one thought and act to the next thought and act and to the next, so on and so on...continuously WHILE YOU CONTINUE IN THAT SIN. God does not want you to sin, so separate from your sin and the one you are sinning with - whether you've entered into a legal contract them or not! Divorce is the fruit of repentance in such cases not a violation of Malachi 2.
Are you advocating remarried couples divorce their spouses to return to those they have been divorced from?
Your theory runs right into this Scripture:
If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted? from Jeremiah 3:1
People in Christ under grace aren't going back under the law. Sin must be confessed and repented of, and it is forgiven through Christ. Shouldn't a Christian view advocate faithfulness to the marriage one is in? Doesn't repentance find you where you are?
One thing in particular is wrong with legalistic ideas and that is that one person is responsible for another's behavior. Each person is responsible to God. That's all.
It contradicts many other scriptures as well like Du. 24:1-4 I personally believe her views and that of a few others on this forum are completely unbiblical. The latest surprise "doctrine" that has been advocated on this forum is the idea that a spouse who is being physically abuse should remain in that situation and continue to be abused. How ungodly is that!!! Up until a day or two ago I didn't think they views presented by a few on this forum could get any more ungodly then they already were, boy was I wrong!
For the record, here is what a few on this forum believe:
1) All "covenant" marriages causes both spouses to be bound to that marriage for life as long as both spouses live regardless of adultery, abandonment, divorce, remarriage, whether either spouse was or is a believer, whether divorce happened before or after conversion, etc... A marriage is defined as a valid "covenant" marriage if both spouses have never been in a prior "covenant" marriage.
2) "Any spouse that is remarried (according to the state) while still being bound by a "covenant" marriage to someone else will go to Hell unless they in repentance abandon the relationship or their original spouse dies. Those who have abandoned such a relationship are strongly encouraged to pursue a legal divorce as an acknowledgment that they have truly repented."
===================================
And here is a history of the linguistic gymnastics required to arrive at a statement that these few would agree fairly represented their beliefs.
Any spouse that is remarried [(according to the state)] while still being bound by a "covenant" marriage to someone else will go to Hell unless they [(legally)] divorce [in repentance ][abandon the relationship] or their original spouse dies. [Those who have abandoned such a relationship are strongly encouraged to pursue a legal divorce as an acknowledgment that they have truly abandoned the relationship [repented.]]
"(According to the state)" was added because Keepingfaith had objected to the idea that a remarriage even existed. Because such a marriage is clearly recognized by the state, I added this clarification so that her objection could be addressed.
"legal" was added because keepingfaith contended that there was no divorce because the marriage never existed. I added this because the state does recognize the marriage and requires a state recognized divorce to resolve it i.e a legal divorce.
"(legal) divorce" was changed to "abandon the relationship" in the sentence about "Hell" because of lastblast's objection i.e. she stated that abandoning the relationship didn't require divorce.
The last sentence was added because lastblast said that (legal) divorce should be an acknowledgment that the relationship was abandoned.
Added "in repentance" to clearly indicate why the relationship was being abandoned, and changed the last "abandoned the relationship" to "repented" for that same reason. (in order to satisfy Keepingfaith's objection. )
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 8:52:14 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 992
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
And here is a history of the linguistic gymnastics required to arrive at a statement that these few would agree fairly represented their beliefs....
I think the position is summed up quite clear in scripture without your obfuscations:
Mark 10:6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
I Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Scripture clearly states that God joins the marriage union for life, and that divorces therefore cannot separate what He has joined, so thus all subsequent remarriages are adultery, or in other words extramarital affairs. So, what sort of linguistic and mental gymnastics are required to "interpret" this to mean that all divorces and remarriages are honored by God as legal and acceptable?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 9:17:49 PM
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the_silver_cup
Posts: 7
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
So, what sort of linguistic and mental gymnastics are required to "interpret" this to mean that all divorces and remarriages are honored by God as legal and acceptable?
SealedEternal
No gymnastics. You're putting forth the idea that adultery is committed even by an abandoned, divorced spouse whose heart is toward God. What a hopeless picture is painted by this concept. No one is responsible for the actions of another. I know what this is--it's condemnation. Eternal condemnation for either spouse when a marriage ends. You could take that stance with any sin and say it's the thing that's never forgiven. A clear conscience toward God is found in grace.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 9:44:47 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
You're putting forth the idea that adultery is committed even by an abandoned, divorced spouse whose heart is toward God.
Those were the words of Jesus... Luke 16:18
He says that EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery (this is the man who abandons his wife- but apparently he is still bound to her... which means she has to be bound back) Jesus also says anyone who marries a divorced person commits adultery. That means no divorced person is eligible to marry another because they are still bound to their first spouse.
This lines up perfectly with Paul's teaching that we are bound to each other for life and death separates us, and explains why there are only 2 options given to the divorced... remain unmarried or be reconciled. 1cor7:10-11
Our heart is NOT right with God if we have hardened our heart toward our spouse who has left. And if we are not loving and forgiving and loving and forgiving. We are called to LOVE above all... that is the only thing He asks us to get right. Christian love is not based on what we are getting or how others treat us. It is a love expecting nothing in return... loving even our enemies.
A born again Believer should never be irreconcilable by nature. Our lives should reflect Christ. Our spouses can divorce us, but we should never "divorce" them- and we are just as guilty if we write them off when they leave.
We are called to represent Christ in our marriages, which were created to be a symbol of His relationship to the Church. He would never divorce us. It is not for us to give others a timetable to repent- or they are no longer worthy. Christ gives us until death and our vows said we would too. Nothing in there about "until adultery or abandonment".
I would not want to stand before God and have Him say.... "sorry you missed your "window of opportunity"- I'm giving you the same window you gave your spouse."
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 7/15/2008 10:45:30 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 10:00:55 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
the idea that a spouse who is being physically abuse should remain in that situation and continue to be abused. How ungodly is that!!! Up until a day or two ago I didn't think they views presented by a few on this forum could get any more ungodly then they already were, boy was I wrong!
Benelchi,
You know that is not what he is saying, and you are using that with a clear agenda.
Our view is that scripture says adultery is not righteous, is not acceptable to God, is not a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:19), and scripture says those practicing it will not inherit Heaven.
Advocating FOR something that Jesus and Paul define as adultery and something that there is strong warnings against throughout scripture would be ungodly.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 10:25:04 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
You're putting forth the idea that adultery is committed even by an abandoned, divorced spouse whose heart is toward God. What a hopeless picture is painted by this concept.
I don't see it as a hopeless picture. I see it as a beautiful picture of the faithfulness of God to His people. I don't see anything as "hopeless" for a person who is walking in obedience by Faith. If we have the worldly view that this life is all there is and we better live it up, than I guess it looks hopeless... but we have the hope of eternal life, that is beyond anything we could ever hope for. This life is a blink and we are not promised tomorrow.
And we have the hope found in a God who redeems, reconciles and restores relationships... that's who He is.
I personally do not feel like God "owes" us anything. Jesus already gave His life to give us eternal life... if that's not enough for someone- they might need to do some soul searching. I don't feel it's too much to ask to keep our commitment to God. Jesus could have passed on the cup.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 7/15/2008 10:39:49 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 10:35:48 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 181
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
Context...context...context. If you have divorced your lawful husband or wife; you are to try to return - this is repentance. If he or she wont accept you, thats on them - you remain single. But don't marry another - thats adultery...adultery in heart and body - from one thought and act to the next thought and act and to the next, so on and so on...continuously WHILE YOU CONTINUE IN THAT SIN. God does not want you to sin, so separate from your sin and the one you are sinning with - whether you've entered into a legal contract them or not! Divorce is the fruit of repentance in such cases not a violation of Malachi 2.
Note: Let me clarify what I meant by the last sentence: "I mean THIS KIND OF 'divorce' is the fruit of repentance in such cases. It IS NOT a violation of Malachi 2; Malachi is refering to and condemns the putting away of one's first lawful wife (or husband) - NOT the putting away of an alleged 'wife' or husband' one marrys AFTER acting treacherously against their first husband or wife, by putting THEM away."
You: Are you advocating remarried couples divorce their spouses to return to those they have been divorced from?
Answer: 'Re-MARRIED? You're referring to those Christ and Paul said unlawfully "marry another"?
Are you asking me if I am advocating those who Christ and Paul referred to as having 'married another' AFTER they put away their first lawful husband or wife to RETURN to those they have deserted? It depends. But my MAIN POINT WAS that it is clear that Christ and Paul called those who do "marry another" - both the husband who puts his wife away and the wife who is able to do the same under other forms of 'civil' courts; AND even the 'innocent' wife who was put away for 'unbiblical reasons'...ALL OF THESE WHO "MARRY ANOTHER" ARE ADULTERERS; and the ONLY scriptural and logical remedy for their sin, is to SEPARATE FROM THEIR SIN. That means separate from and dissolve their unlawful relationship with the one they have added sin to sin in trying to call their sin an honorable marriage.
Now as for returning to their first wife or husband, the answer is different depending on who we are speaking about. You like to invoke Deut. 24:1-4 and/or Jer. 3:1 perhaps, please note that this passage if it were in effect today (since Christ) is specific. It was not a provision for divorce for the wife, but for the husband - the hardhearted husbands.
It was the husband who could not take back his wife if she married another after he put her away; it is not addressing the situation that we have occuring in our time, where wives put away and divorce their husbands. You might want and wish to apply this passage to all situations, but you can't do so with authority.
So in the case where a wife leaves her lawful husband and marrys another, IF SHE REPENTS, and separates from her sin of adultery (leaves and puts away her second so-called husband); she is NOT forbidden to GO BACK TO HER HUSBAND. I doubt that you are going to accept this, but that is your prerogative.
But the MAIN point is that the second marriage is called adulterous by Christ and Paul; and the only remedy for sin including an adulterous relationship - whether cloaked in the language of and called a 'marriage' or not, is to stop the sin. Christ and the grace of Christ does NOT TURN sinful deeds "the works of the flesh", into righteous deeds. Adultery like stealing, murder, lying, coveting, idolatry etc., etc., etc. is not magically transformed into purity and godliness. The lie is that it is. But claiming it is does not change the facts.
In all this error mislabeled as 'remarriage', it is always brought up that the wife or husband can't return to their first husband or wife. That is the straw man and/or red herring here. So to make this clear here: For sake of argument lets say that no one can return to their first spouse if and when THEY HAVE married another; or EVEN IF THEY NEVER REMARRIED. But the MAIN point is that this is not the issue in discussion here! The MAIN issue or point is that whether or not they can return to their first husband or wife, THEY NEED TO separate from their sin. That means sever and break off their adulterous relationship with whoever it is that they are committing adultery with - including severing the 'civil' [legal] entanglements via the 'marriage licence'. And if need be remain unmarried just as Christ through Paul has declared.
You believe otherwise, you like I will One Day stand and be instructed more perfectly at the Judgment. That is when the issue of shame will come into play.
You say: Your theory runs right into this Scripture:
"If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted?" from Jeremiah 3:1
Answer: Yes....???? How about the rest of even this one single passage?
"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD."
Now if God says "return again to me", his wife Israel who left him and if effect married another apparently, I see the heart of God being displayed and I see this being the heart of Christ in Mat.19 in referring to the Deut passage. Out of time.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 10:42:44 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 992
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: the_silver_cup
You're putting forth the idea that adultery is committed even by an abandoned, divorced spouse whose heart is toward God.
I'm not "putting forth" anything of my own and simply quoting what God said on the matter, but here's an even clearer refutation of your assertion:
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
In this reference to the Old Covenant Law, Jesus specifically says that the "innocent" and "abandoned" woman is made to commit adultery by her husband treacherously divorcing her. It also states that the man she married is having extramarital relations with another man's wife by marrying her, even though the man she is married to had divorced and abandoned her. So I'm not putting forth the idea that the "innocent" party in a divorce is just as bound as the guilty one, God is. Obviously logic tells us that adultery only exists where two are bound to one another, so one cannot be free to remarry and the other still bound to that person who is now free. Either both are free and there is no marriage, or both are bound and remarriage is adultery, and Jesus clearly stated it is the latter:
Mark 10:11-12 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
These verses also cover both parties of the marriage, and don't give either an option to remarry without committing adultery.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 12:49:01 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2121
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
the idea that a spouse who is being physically abuse should remain in that situation and continue to be abused. How ungodly is that!!! Up until a day or two ago I didn't think they views presented by a few on this forum could get any more ungodly then they already were, boy was I wrong!
Benelchi,
You know that is not what he is saying, and you are using that with a clear agenda.
Our view is that scripture says adultery is not righteous, is not acceptable to God, is not a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:19), and scripture says those practicing it will not inherit Heaven.
Advocating FOR something that Jesus and Paul define as adultery and something that there is strong warnings against throughout scripture would be ungodly.
That is exactly what he is saying and it is completely unbiblical i.e. he said if you know that you are not going to get killed you should stay there and take the beating. Go back and reread what he has written.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 12:55:53 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2121
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
Context...context...context. If you have divorced your lawful husband or wife; you are to try to return - this is repentance. If he or she wont accept you, thats on them - you remain single. But don't marry another - thats adultery...adultery in heart and body - from one thought and act to the next thought and act and to the next, so on and so on...continuously WHILE YOU CONTINUE IN THAT SIN. God does not want you to sin, so separate from your sin and the one you are sinning with - whether you've entered into a legal contract them or not! Divorce is the fruit of repentance in such cases not a violation of Malachi 2.
Note: Let me clarify what I meant by the last sentence: "I mean THIS KIND OF 'divorce' is the fruit of repentance in such cases. It IS NOT a violation of Malachi 2; Malachi is refering to and condemns the putting away of one's first lawful wife (or husband) - NOT the putting away of an alleged 'wife' or husband' one marrys AFTER acting treacherously against their first husband or wife, by putting THEM away."
You: Are you advocating remarried couples divorce their spouses to return to those they have been divorced from?
Answer: 'Re-MARRIED? You're referring to those Christ and Paul said unlawfully "marry another"?
Are you asking me if I am advocating those who Christ and Paul referred to as having 'married another' AFTER they put away their first lawful husband or wife to RETURN to those they have deserted? It depends. But my MAIN POINT WAS that it is clear that Christ and Paul called those who do "marry another" - both the husband who puts his wife away and the wife who is able to do the same under other forms of 'civil' courts; AND even the 'innocent' wife who was put away for 'unbiblical reasons'...ALL OF THESE WHO "MARRY ANOTHER" ARE ADULTERERS; and the ONLY scriptural and logical remedy for their sin, is to SEPARATE FROM THEIR SIN. That means separate from and dissolve their unlawful relationship with the one they have added sin to sin in trying to call their sin an honorable marriage.
Now as for returning to their first wife or husband, the answer is different depending on who we are speaking about. You like to invoke Deut. 24:1-4 and/or Jer. 3:1 perhaps, please note that this passage if it were in effect today (since Christ) is specific. It was not a provision for divorce for the wife, but for the husband - the hardhearted husbands.
It was the husband who could not take back his wife if she married another after he put her away; it is not addressing the situation that we have occuring in our time, where wives put away and divorce their husbands. You might want and wish to apply this passage to all situations, but you can't do so with authority.
So in the case where a wife leaves her lawful husband and marrys another, IF SHE REPENTS, and separates from her sin of adultery (leaves and puts away her second so-called husband); she is NOT forbidden to GO BACK TO HER HUSBAND. I doubt that you are going to accept this, but that is your prerogative.
But the MAIN point is that the second marriage is called adulterous by Christ and Paul; and the only remedy for sin including an adulterous relationship - whether cloaked in the language of and called a 'marriage' or not, is to stop the sin. Christ and the grace of Christ does NOT TURN sinful deeds "the works of the flesh", into righteous deeds. Adultery like stealing, murder, lying, coveting, idolatry etc., etc., etc. is not magically transformed into purity and godliness. The lie is that it is. But claiming it is does not change the facts.
In all this error mislabeled as 'remarriage', it is always brought up that the wife or husband can't return to their first husband or wife. That is the straw man and/or red herring here. So to make this clear here: For sake of argument lets say that no one can return to their first spouse if and when THEY HAVE married another; or EVEN IF THEY NEVER REMARRIED. But the MAIN point is that this is not the issue in discussion here! The MAIN issue or point is that whether or not they can return to their first husband or wife, THEY NEED TO separate from their sin. That means sever and break off their adulterous relationship with whoever it is that they are committing adultery with - including severing the 'civil' [legal] entanglements via the 'marriage licence'. And if need be remain unmarried just as Christ through Paul has declared.
You believe otherwise, you like I will One Day stand and be instructed more perfectly at the Judgment. That is when the issue of shame will come into play.
You say: Your theory runs right into this Scripture:
"If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted?" from Jeremiah 3:1
Answer: Yes....???? How about the rest of even this one single passage?
"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD."
Now if God says "return again to me", his wife Israel who left him and if effect married another apparently, I see the heart of God being displayed and I see this being the heart of Christ in Mat.19 in referring to the Deut passage. Out of time.
So then are you saying that when a remarriage has occurred that the remarried spouse must divorce, but they are NEVER permitted to remarry anyone again (not even their original spouse)?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 2:51:32 PM
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PatHarris
Posts: 217
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
the idea that a spouse who is being physically abuse should remain in that situation and continue to be abused. How ungodly is that!!! Up until a day or two ago I didn't think they views presented by a few on this forum could get any more ungodly then they already were, boy was I wrong!
Benelchi,
You know that is not what he is saying, and you are using that with a clear agenda.
Our view is that scripture says adultery is not righteous, is not acceptable to God, is not a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:19), and scripture says those practicing it will not inherit Heaven.
Advocating FOR something that Jesus and Paul define as adultery and something that there is strong warnings against throughout scripture would be ungodly.
Amazingly enough several of us read it the same way as Benelchi.
Guess that makes your supposition worng.
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 2:54:24 PM
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PatHarris
Posts: 217
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: the_silver_cup
You're putting forth the idea that adultery is committed even by an abandoned, divorced spouse whose heart is toward God.
I'm not "putting forth" anything of my own and simply quoting what God said on the matter, but here's an even clearer refutation of your assertion:
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
In this reference to the Old Covenant Law, Jesus specifically says that the "innocent" and "abandoned" woman is made to commit adultery by her husband treacherously divorcing her. It also states that the man she married is having extramarital relations with another man's wife by marrying her, even though the man she is married to had divorced and abandoned her. So I'm not putting forth the idea that the "innocent" party in a divorce is just as bound as the guilty one, God is. Obviously logic tells us that adultery only exists where two are bound to one another, so one cannot be free to remarry and the other still bound to that person who is now free. Either both are free and there is no marriage, or both are bound and remarriage is adultery, and Jesus clearly stated it is the latter:
Mark 10:11-12 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
These verses also cover both parties of the marriage, and don't give either an option to remarry without committing adultery.
SealedEternal
Nice of you to pick the version that uses "unchastity".
_____________________________
So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 7:07:25 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 543
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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p.progress,
Are you saying that a wife is to stay with an abusive husband?! Even the Early Church Fathers would disagree with that!
Christian Marriage
According to
St. John Chrysostom.
To correct the inadequacies of a wife, he recommends patient reasoning, not vituperation, and certainly not violence. "If a man beats his wife," he says, "it is a great dishonor, not only to her, but also to him. I say to you wives and husbands, may God save you from such a sin as would lead a husband to the necessity of beating his wife. I speak here of a wife, but it should be disgusting to a person of noble character to beat or raise his hand against even a slave … All the more then is it disgraceful to raise your hand against a freeman. Everyone understands this, even according to pagan law, where a wife who is beaten by her husband is no longer obligated to live with him, and he is no longer worthy of living with her. Is it not the height of illegality to so dishonor, like a slave, your life-friend who has long been helping you in life? Such a husband, if one can call such a person a husband at all, is on the same level as one who murders their father or their mother. For if we have been commanded to leave our mother and father for our wives’ sake, then it is not to insult them thus, but rather to fulfill God’s law, which our parents so long to do that they agree with great zeal to being left, and even thank God for it. Is it not then the height of dishonor to abuse her, for whom God commanded us to leave even our parents? Is this not insanity?"
Apparently St John Chrysostom totally disagrees with your viewpoint, and he lived MUCH closer to the times of the Apostles.
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/marriage_chrysostom_e.htm
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 8:43:31 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 992
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
So then are you saying that when a remarriage has occurred that the remarried spouse must divorce, but they are NEVER permitted to remarry anyone again (not even their original spouse)?
According to scripture the "remarriage" is an extramarital affair and the person is still married to the original spouse:
Mark 10:11-12 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Therefore as far as God is concerned, the two had never separated what He had joined:
Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-10 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
Ephesians 5:28-31 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
This is because the marriage covenant is joined by God for as long as both shall live, and not as long as both decide not to divorce:
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
Since only death dissolves a marriage and not divorce, a person who has divorced his wife is still bound to her by covenant:
Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?"
Obviously his "divorce" didn't separate what God had joined since God says she is still his wife by covenant after the "divorce". That explains why Jesus said that all remarriages after a divorce are the sin of adultery, or in other words extramarital affairs where married people are having relations with someone who is not their spouse. If the subsequent relationship is adultery, then by definition they are still married to the husband or wife of their youth even though they have been divorced. Therefore forsaking the adulterous relationship is not a "divorce" as far as God is concerned.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:12:58 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 181
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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OMG here we go again. And here I go with another too long post for some:
PART OF MY ORIGINAL, WITH ADDED INSERTIONS: p.progress
Context...context...context. If you have divorced your lawful husband or wife; you are to try to return - this is repentance. IF he or she WONT accept you, thats on them - THEN you REMAIN UNMARRIED (single). It is FORBIDDEN to "marry another" - thats adultery...adultery in heart and body - from one thought and act to the next thought and act and to the next, so on and so on...continuously WHILE YOU CONTINUE IN THAT SIN. God does not want you to sin, so separate from your sin and OBVIOUSLY, the one you are SINNING WITH - whether you've entered into a legal contract with them or not! Divorce is the fruit of repentance in such cases not a violation of Malachi 2.
Note: Let me clarify what I meant by the last sentence: "I mean THIS KIND OF 'divorce'; the kind where you separate from the fornications and/or adulteries you are committing against your spouse with "ANOTHER"; THOUGH it be 'legally sanctioned' by current civil law (they sanction other kinds of things that violate the Law of God as well). THIS kind of 'divorce' is righteous, because it is an action, a 'deed', that repentance requires AS part of FRUITS of the true repentant. Repentance requires REAL SEPARATION FROM ONE'S SIN, & OBVIOUSLY this INCLUDES separating FROM the one or those you ARE, that is HAD been SINNING WITH. THIS KIND OF 'DIVORCE' is REQUIRED in the process of fully clearing oneself of the sin of adultery. THIS KIND of DIVORCE, IS NOT a violation of Malachi 2 AS MANY THINK AND TRY TO CLAIM IT IS!!!
Malachi is refering to and condemns the putting away of one's first lawful wife (for us today, that would certainly apply to the wife putting away her first and lawful husband)! IT IS NOT...I repeat, IT IS NOT applicable to the putting away of "another" woman or man - an alleged 'wife' or husband' one has obtained a civil sanction to receive legal benefits to cohabitate with; and that under the GUISE and ILLUSION of AUTOMATICALLY being seen in the eyes of God as man and wife. God does NOT sanction relationships of this nature, instead he calls their relationship adulterous - though everyone else may call it being 'married'.
The word 'marriage' means or is referring to the CELEBRATION and the FESTIVITIES that surround the CEREMONY that LATER evolved from the time, where men when they sought out a wife, approached a maidens father in order to find out if they would be willing to "give: their "daughter" to him "to wife", to her "take her to wife". If the father said NO, that was that; if YES, then she was given to him, and that was that. It was his right and prerogative as the father to either "give" or "keep his virgin" daughter to the one inquiring for her.
The celebration of this 'giving' a daughter and 'taking' a wife developed in bits and pieces. There was no eleborate 'wedding' (marriage / wedding / nuptials) in the garden with Adam and Eve; even at the time of Isaac, we see that his and Rebekah's union as man and wife was not preceded by any formal 'marriage' or 'wedding' ceremony or even celebration: Abraham sought out a wife for Isaac his son; the servant conveyed this to Rebekah's father, brother and family; Bethuel (and Laban and the family) gave Rebekah to Isaac (Rebekah agreeing to go to him even quicker than her brother and mother desired); the scripture then says that "And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife...". That simple...NO fanfare...NO priest, NO rabbai, NO pastor NOR a minister to 'officiate' over any ceremony...NO VOWS EITHER! Just he "brought her", he "took Rebelah" and "she became his wife".
Marriage, the marriage 'certificate', the marriage 'ritual', the pomp and ceremony - NONE OF IT is the criteria that God looks at, is moved into action by or BASES HIS SANCTIONING ACT upon. The marriage or wedding ritual (nuptials), is merely the 'dressing' men have conjured up . It evolved over time to merely celebrate the 'giving' of a daughter and the 'taking' of the same as a wife. It stands between the moment the father "gives" his daughter (when he wills to do so), and the moment that she becomes a wife, which occurs at the time of the physical union of her with the man that "took her to wife", her now husband: "And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." The marriage ceremony is not wrong, BUT it has been misconstrued to mean more, MUCH MORE than it does or should.
And I say that scriptures teaches that by the same token 'What therefore God hath NOT joined together, let NOT man put TOGETHER - BUT RATHER let man put asunder.' Other wise, the so-called 'marraige' is a shame, a cloak for sin.
To repent of such a shame requires severing from the one that you are violating God's decrees regarding adultery. Again, the Lord in Malachi 2 DOES NOT condemn the putting away of an adulterous relationship. He condemns and warns about putting away one's one-flesh wife of thy youth and wife of thy covenant - NOT the putting away of "another" woman you "married" after you abandoned and acted treacherously against your first wife - or husband, for that matter.
You: Are you advocating remarried couples divorce their spouses to return to those they have been divorced from?
Answer: 'Re-MARRIED? You're referring to those Christ and Paul said un-lawfully "marry another"? Remarry in my understanding can and only does refer to those who have left their lawful spouses and after "RE-penting, and RE-turning, if it be possible, hopefully will indeed RE-marry their FIRST husband of wife. But I know what you mean, so here's my too long of an answer to some or many (shorted to me).
Are you asking me if I am advocating those who Christ and Paul referred to as having 'married another' AFTER they put away their first lawful husband or wife to RETURN to those they have deserted? It depends. But my MAIN POINT WAS that it is clear that Christ and Paul called those who do "marry another" - both the husband who puts his wife away and the wife who is able to do the same under other forms of 'civil' courts; AND even the 'innocent' wife who was put away for 'unbiblical reasons'...ALL OF THESE WHO "MARRY ANOTHER" ARE ADULTERERS; and the ONLY scriptural and logical remedy for their sin, is to SEPARATE FROM THEIR SIN. That means separate from and dissolve their unlawful relationship with the one they have added sin to sin to, BY TRYING TO call their state of sin to sin, some kind of an honorable 'marriage'. Honorable it is not, neither could ever be WHILE THEIR FIRST SPOUSE IS ALIVE AND THEY HAVE NO REPENTED OF THEIR SIN AS YET. I add here, that even if their first spouse dies, IF THEY DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE their deeds up to that point as iniquity, can that be rightly construed as a lawful marriage? You may think so, not me. But such is the state of our present generation.
Now as for returning to their first wife or husband, the answer is different depending on who we are speaking about. You like to invoke Deut. 24:1-4 and/or Jer. 3:1 perhaps, please note that this passage if it were in effect today (since Christ) is specific. It was not a provision for divorce for the wife, but for the husband - the hardhearted husbands.
It was the husband who could not take back his wife if she married another after he put her away; it is not addressing the situation that we have occuring in our time, where wives put away and divorce their husbands. You might want and wish to apply this passage to all situations, but you can't do so with authority.
So in the case where a wife leaves her lawful husband and marrys another, IF SHE REPENTS, and separates from her sin of adultery (leaves and puts away her second so-called husband); she is NOT forbidden to GO BACK TO HER HUSBAND. I doubt that you are going to accept this, but that is your prerogative.
But the MAIN point is that the second marriage is called adulterous by Christ and Paul; and the only remedy for sin including an adulterous relationship - whether cloaked in the language of and called a 'marriage' or not, is to stop the sin. Christ and the grace of Christ does NOT TURN sinful deeds "the works of the flesh", into righteous deeds. Adultery like stealing, murder, lying, coveting, idolatry etc., etc., etc. is not magically transformed into purity and godliness. The lie is that it is. But claiming it is does not change the facts.
In all this error mislabeled as 'remarriage', it is always brought up that the wife or husband can't return to their first husband or wife. That is the straw man and/or red herring here. So to make this clear here: For sake of argument lets say that no one can return to their first spouse if and when THEY HAVE married another; or EVEN IF THEY NEVER REMARRIED. But the MAIN point is that this is not the issue in discussion here! The MAIN issue or point is that whether or not they can return to their first husband or wife, THEY NEED TO separate from their sin. That means sever and break off their adulterous relationship with whoever it is that they are committing adultery with - including severing the 'civil' [legal] entanglements via the 'marriage licence'. And if need be remain unmarried just as Christ through Paul has declared.
You believe otherwise, you like I will One Day stand and be instructed more perfectly at the Judgment. That is when the issue of shame will come into play.
You or someone else said:
You say: Your theory runs right into this Scripture:
"If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man's wife, will he return to her? Would not that land be greatly polluted?" from Jeremiah 3:1
Answer: Yes....???? How about the rest of even this one single passage?
"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD."
Now if God says "return again to me", his wife Israel who left him and if effect married another apparently, I see the heart of God being displayed and I see this being the heart of Christ in Mat.19 in referring to the Deut passage. Out of time.
[/quote]
So then are you saying that when a remarriage has occurred that the remarried spouse must divorce, but they are NEVER permitted to remarry anyone again (not even their original spouse)?
[/quote]
No!!! Not at all!!! Not the 're-married', but the ADULTERER MUST divorce from the "another" that they 'married'. The legal decree that states that you're 'divorced', is merely the BYPRODUCT of a heart that has RE-PENTED of their ADULTEROUS - though 'LEGALIZED' SINFUL relationship. A manifest token of the quality and sincerity of their desire to clear themselves in this matter, EVEN AS Paul speaks of in 2Cor.7. Repentance requires separation from NOT ONLY the SIN; BUT logically from the PERSON(s) the sin of adultery was being committed with - UP & UNTIL they re-pented.
I cannot and do not define 'remarriage' as lovers of the so-called 'right to remarry' wish to define it. A true 'remarriage' is when a wayward lawful (say a 1st lawful) wife or husband has RE-pented of their sins of desertion of and defrauding against their first lawfully spouse and God; RE-turns to them in humility; and RE-CONCILES with them - and if they have not merely left them, but also went so far as to 'put them away' and 'divorced' them, then THEY clearly are not only permitted to, but are commanded to RE-MARRY THEM"! That COMMAND is clearly IMPLIED - SINCE it is clear that a lawfully wedded wife or husband is COMMANDED NOT TO PUT ASUNDER their husband or wife; and that is the essence of the gospel: REPENTANCE - RETURNING TO - RECONCILIATION - BEING AT ONE AGAIN!
Now and IF they have "married another" - a thing Christ calls adultery and a most abominable sin and transgression against God and their spouse: then Yes, I have a responsibility to 'teach' such that to be cleansed of their adulteries (each and every specific sin they've committed and continue to commit while both desiring and fulfilling the desires of their flesh with that individual they act treasurously against their first spouse with), THEY MUST separate from their sin - which means SEPARATING FROM whosoever it is that they are commiting both mental and physical adultery WITH.
As to the LAST part of your question: "...but they are NEVER permitted to remarry anyone again (not even their original spouse)?"
Whether or not RE-pented adulterers or adulteresses can RE-TURN & RE-MARRY their first wife or husband AFTER THEY HAVE SEPARATED FROM THEIR ADULTEROUS relationship with "another" (and showed their repentance with deeds, such as in 'legally' dissolving their sinful yoke together thru 'a divorce'), is something that requires some careful honest study and thinking.
But my present understanding and perspective is this: For one thing, I see that Deut.24:1-4 is not in force under the Law of Christ. It appears that Christ himself does not consider the provision in that text to originate from him; but was granted as a concession to the hard-hearted among the men of Israel under the temporary aspects of the Law (not to say that all things in the Law were temporary). Be that as it may, THAT law or precept, was not something a woman then and certainly not now can invoke for her folly.
So a wife who has divorced her husband and "married another" and who comes to her senses and repents of her sins; will for one not listen to those who claim all she needs to do is just say I'm sorry and continue in her sin of adultery; but will take the word repentance for what it means and is clearly defined in the contexts of scripture. She will clear herself of her wrong towards God and her first husband and say "I will go and return to my first husband" as the Prodical Son and the Prodical women in Hosea 2:7 says. I see this in the Jer.3:1, 2-8-14 as well. The will of God is for reconciliation - it is not always going to occur, but that is his command and will.
I think anyway - you have your ideas, I have mine; but I think perhaps that the prohibition in Deut.24 against a man taking his wife back when she has married another is to either/or protect her, or to punish the husband, or to show that he has in essence forced her to commit adultery.
Whatever be the real reasons for this prohibition in this precept of the law, I don't agree that it applies to the wife who puts her husband away, FOR THE TEXT did NOT provide her 'the right' to put away her husband, only he her. Since she had no right to do this, only the husband (man), she has no right to go off and marry another either without FIRST HAVING BEEN PUT AWAY and GIVEN a bill of DIVORCMENT FROM HER HUSBAND.
A narrative example close to this, is that of David taking Michal back and that from her alleged second 'husband' Phaltiel. David had not put her away, but you might agrue that he deserted her (not me); THE king, the SUPREME 'CIVIL' AUTHORITY & her OWN FATHER, even GAVE her to Phaltiel - but unlawfully so. For he gave her to David first. But there you go, an example of a husband taking back his wife who has been defiled through a second marriage to "another".
And if you or someone eolse wants to claim that David was violating Deut.24, you'll have your work cut out for you. And if so, do so clearly, I'll be willing to listen at least.
Now as for all the noise over my statements regarding a wife returning to or fleeing from her husband, who is abusive to her. What I have said before still stands - ONLY it has been twisted up a bit. I give my response to it in another post that will follow this one, when I can.
< Message edited by p.progress -- 7/17/2008 1:24:31 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:40:03 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2121
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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Here is one LONG winded explanation about why it is OK to advocate violating the scripture in Duet. 24:1-4, sorry I don't buy it!
And we are promised one more LONG winded post to come that advocates that abused spouses should remain in the home and take the abuse, sorry I don't by that one either.
Neither of the ideas you have presented are biblical, and both are dangerously destructive. There is no biblical reason that a couple should be told they MUST divorce, nor is there a biblical reason that an abused spouse should ever stay and take the abuse!
quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
OMG here we go again. And here I go with another too long post for some:
PART OF MY ORIGINAL, WITH ADDED INSERTIONS: p.progress
Context...context...context. If you have divorced your lawful husband or wife; you are to try to return - this is repentance. IF he or she WONT accept you, thats on them - THEN you REMAIN UNMARRIED (single). It is FORBIDDEN to "marry another" - thats adultery...adultery in heart and body - from one thought and act to the next thought and act and to the next, so on and so on...continuously WHILE YOU CONTINUE IN THAT SIN. God does not want you to sin, so separate from your sin and OBVIOUSLY, the one you are SINNING WITH - whether you've entered into a legal contract with them or not! Divorce is the fruit of repentance in such cases not a violation of Malachi 2.
Note: Let me clarify what I meant by the last sentence: "I mean THIS KIND OF 'divorce'; the kind where you separate from the fornications and/or adulteries you are committing against your spouse with "ANOTHER"; THOUGH it be 'legally sanctioned' by current civil law (they sanction other kinds of things that violate the Law of God as well). THIS kind of 'divorce' is righteous, because it is an action, a 'deed', that repentance requires AS part of FRUITS of the true repentant. Repentance requires REAL SEPARATION FROM ONE'S SIN, & OBVIOUSLY this INCLUDES separating FROM the one or those you ARE, that is HAD been SINNING WITH. THIS KIND OF 'DIVORCE' is REQUIRED in the process of fully clearing oneself of the sin of adultery. THIS KIND of DIVORCE, IS NOT a violation of Malachi 2 AS MANY THINK AND TRY TO CLAIM IT IS!!!
Malachi is refering to and condemns the putting away of one's first lawful wife (for us today, that would certainly apply to the wife putting away her first and lawful husband)! IT IS NOT...I repeat, IT IS NOT applicable to the putting away of "another" woman or man - an alleged 'wife' or husband' one has obtained a civil sanction to receive legal benefits to cohabitate with; and that under the GUISE and ILLUSION of AUTOMATICALLY being seen in the eyes of God as man and wife. God does NOT sanction relationships of this nature, instead he calls their relationship adulterous - though everyone else may call it being 'married'.
The word 'marriage' means or is referring to the CELEBRATION and the FESTIVITIES that surround the CEREMONY that LATER evolved from the time, where men when they sought out a wife, approached a maidens father in order to find out if they would be willing to "give: their "daughter" to him "to wife", to her "take her to wife". If the father said NO, that was that; if YES, then she was given to him, and that was that. It was his right and prerogative as the father to either "give" or "keep his virgin" daughter to the one inquiring for her.
The celebration of this 'giving' a daughter and 'taking' a wife developed in bits and pieces. There was no eleborate 'wedding' (marriage / wedding / nuptials) in the garden with Adam and Eve; even at the time of Isaac, we see that his and Rebekah's union as man and wife was not preceded by any formal 'marriage' or 'wedding' ceremony or even celebration: Abraham sought out a wife for Isaac his son; the servant conveyed this to Rebekah's father, brother and family; Bethuel (and Laban and the family) gave Rebekah to Isaac (Rebekah agreeing to go to him even quicker than her brother and mother desired); the scripture then says that "And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife...". That simple...NO fanfare...NO priest, NO rabbai, NO pastor NOR a minister to 'officiate' over any ceremony...NO VOWS EITHER! Just he "brough | | |
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