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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 12:51:23 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1369
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
The "water" outside the door can't see that someone has been knocked down and/or injured... the "water" that's gotten through the door cannot stop because of all the pressure behind it from people pushing forward to get in.
People should be able to realize that if the door is closed (ie: the people in the back can't get in) and it's being open (now people in the front seem to be able to get in), someone is possibly opening the door, and if you rush him, it could hurt. They should know not to try and push the people in the front against a door that's closed so that they can get in faster when it opens (the door was closed before it opened and the people were there before it opened, so they were there when it was closed, and at some point, they should have known it was closed. In general, the people in the back should know not to push people in the front in because it could be hurt someone).
You know, I think I've seen doors that can automatically unlock remotely in places, Wal mart should have something like that.
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You have to imagine "people" as "water". The door is a choke point, and "water" pressure builds up behind it.
We're not talking about water molecules being pushed through a bottleneck, we're talking about human beings who are far smarter than water molecules and who, with a little more mental effort, could have avoided this whole mess (but they chose not to). I don't buy the notion that this crowd was too stupid to have avoided this. With just a little extra mental effort, this could have been avoided.
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This is not an unusual phenomenon. Cross reference fire-related tragedies in clubs who have illegally barred fire exits during a fire... even if the fire does not harm anyone, there are often injuries from crushing as people attempting to escape are crushed against the unexpectedly immobile exits.
In this case, people are panicking from a potential danger (a fire), and when panicking from such a danger, some people can't think clearly and they are so busy trying to react to the danger that they maybe unable to take the time required to plan things out and coordinate things among the crowd. In the case of Wal - Mart, no such danger existed, so this seems to be a poor comparison.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 12/1/2008 1:13:59 AM >
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 1:00:36 AM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1369
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
It goes both ways. Some people want to blame the evil corporations for everything, but others want to let them off the hook and absolve them of any responsibility.
It's very unfortunate that some people don't want to put any burden on rich corporations (maybe those who have something to gain from not doing so) even if putting just a little extra burden on them can save many lives.
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I'm not so much against Wal-Mart as I am against greedy, careless business owners trying to milk a few extra bucks out of their patrons by creating dangerous situations. I can probably go into any town and find a bar w/ a band playing that's got some sort of fire code violation - either the room is overcrowded, fire exits are blocked, etc. Why? Because people are cheap, lazy, and greedy. A couple weeks ago, 8 bars in Boston were slated to be shut down for not having installed sprinklers that were mandated under a law enacted four years ago (the article was written morning of the deadline; I don't know how many got it done at the last minute). 3/4 of the establishments initially covered under the law found ways to get themselves exempted rather than install sprinklers.
Great post.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 6:47:41 AM
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martyfran
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I think it was best buy that claimed in the ads that they were going to hand out tickets for the popular items 2 hours before they opened. I think there could have been ways the crowd could have been handled better, and perhaps a lawsuit will bring the need for a solution to greater urgency.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 7:48:08 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
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quote:
They put all this effort into making sure their items aren't hurt (because that would cost them profits), but they don't bother to put the same effort to ensure that their employees are safe. Thanks for further making my point.
The packaging and arrangement on the shipping skids was done by the manufacturer of the items.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 8:10:25 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
They put all this effort into making sure their items aren't hurt (because that would cost them profits), but they don't bother to put the same effort to ensure that their employees are safe. Thanks for further making my point.
The packaging and arrangement on the shipping skids was done by the manufacturer of the items.
Not necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if a gigantic retailer like WM had a hand in designing the packaging material either for efficiency, cost, reliability, or physical size - I work for a small retailer w/ 10 employees and I wouldn't be surprised if we did something like that. WM also has large regional distribution centers that distribute products to individual stores. It's not uncommon for pallets to come in with a hodgepodge of products picked at the distribution center.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 8:23:08 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10214
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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Walmart truck unloaders reorganize entire skids before they saran wrap them and set them aside for the holiday "Blitz". I used to do that job. Very little coming off a truck stays on the same pallet or in the same organization on the same pallet. And some of it doesn't even come on pallets, and then we would put it on them by department.
_____________________________
He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him;
He hears their cry and saves them.
The Lord watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked He will destroy.
~Psalm 145:19-20~
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 9:07:03 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
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quote:
Walmart truck unloaders reorganize entire skids before they saran wrap them and set them aside for the holiday "Blitz". I used to do that job. Very little coming off a truck stays on the same pallet or in the same organization on the same pallet. And some of it doesn't even come on pallets, and then we would put it on them by department.
That makes sense to. The black saran wrap was the one thing on the pallets that made me think it was custom stacked but being Wal-Mart they can tell the shippers to do it like that. The packaging for their stuff though was the same as everywhere else when all things were equal. Even for the big sales? I know that many of the people we supply for can give strict demands on how they want stuff shipped.
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Not necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if a gigantic retailer like WM had a hand in designing the packaging material either for efficiency, cost, reliability, or physical size - I work for a small retailer w/ 10 employees and I wouldn't be surprised if we did something like that. WM also has large regional distribution centers that distribute products to individual stores. It's not uncommon for pallets to come in with a hodgepodge of products picked at the distribution center.
If you only knew how true what I highlighted was except you missed sustainability. I work in packaging and what I am pointing out below will eventually trickle down to all department stores since when doing business with Wal-Mart most suppliers are required to cut their costs by X% each year so whatever innovations go into the packaging for the Big W will hit every store since everything is done to reduce costs. The only thing I believe you'd be wrong on is getting stuff for the sale at the distribution center that was all in a hodge podge. I would think the stuff for the biggest day of the year would be a little better organized. ; )
quote:
Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has backed up it commitment of reducing packaging across its global supply chain by 5% by 2013 by rolling out its sustainability-minded packaging "scorecard" this fall. The program also serves Wal-Mart's other ambitious goals of dramatically reducing solid waste and energy expenditures. Ostensibly, the program is a tool that will help Wal-Mart and its suppliers improve packaging and conserve resources. Though it is a tool for self-evaluation, it sets up a competitive environment as more companies try to better their sustainable performance.
http://www.packagedesignmag.com/issues/2006.11/special.walmart.shtml
As I said where I was everything was real real smooth and easy. There was also a cop outside as their has been at every Black Friday opening store I have attended which is usually Toys R Us, hehe.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 9:18:17 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10214
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
Even for the big sales? I know that many of the people we supply for can give strict demands on how they want stuff shipped.
Inventory process may have changed some since I worked there, but when I did, that's how it was done. Stuff came off the truck on a conveyor and was sorted by hand onto pallets by department or special (Blitz was Black Friday stuff). The only exception I ever saw was things like new DVD releases where the display was built onto the pallet. Those came pre-wrapped and labeled with release date.
On the topic at hand...I think the only way to do away with the risks of this is to stop the Black Friday madness all together, or make all the deals online, but that would defeat the purpose of the sales, which is to get people in the stores so they will buy things that are NOT on sale too.
_____________________________
He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him;
He hears their cry and saves them.
The Lord watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked He will destroy.
~Psalm 145:19-20~
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 10:29:26 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1500
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quote:
People should be able to realize that if the door is closed (ie: the people in the back can't get in) and it's being open (now people in the front seem to be able to get in), someone is possibly opening the door, and if you rush him, it could hurt. They should know not to try and push the people in the front against a door that's closed so that they can get in faster when it opens (the door was closed before it opened and the people were there before it opened, so they were there when it was closed, and at some point, they should have known it was closed. In general, the people in the back should know not to push people in the front in because it could be hurt someone).
You know, I think I've seen doors that can automatically unlock remotely in places, Wal mart should have something like that.
People don't generally think about such things when they're all excited about stuff like this. It's WalMart. The doors are usually automated anyway. They don't usually show up at 5am when the place opens, so they're not familiar with the process. Therefore there's no general expectation that someone is likely to be hurt up ahead.
People just don't expect experiences in stores to be, well, dangerous. Especially when it comes to something as simple as merely getting into the store. We're used to having places of businesses being forced to ensure our safety and that of the employees... which in general is a good thing in my opinion. People do all sorts of weird things when that expectation breaks down... but if you really look at what appears in hindsight to be "weird", it's often something that would be considered "normal behavior" had the circumstances not been extraordinary.
quote:
We're not talking about water molecules being pushed through a bottleneck, we're talking about human beings who are far smarter than water molecules and who, with a little more mental effort, could have avoided this whole mess (but they chose not to). I don't buy the notion that this crowd was too stupid to have avoided this. With just a little extra mental effort, this could have been avoided.
Humans are smarter than water only to the extent that they're aware of the circumstances. It's a small door. There is no way people pushing forward from the back could have been aware that there was an issue up front. There is no reason they should have expected this turn of events. Since they were not aware, the basic imperative for them was to put pressure on those ahead in order to get in quickly, because they were in "it's a race" mentality at the time. Those who were actually close enough to be aware were still subject to the laws of physics, and couldn't do anything about the forward momentum of those behind them.
As Tommy Lee Jones says in MIB, "A person is smart. People are stupid."
The way to avoid this would have been much better crowd control from the beginning. Which is generally how large numbers of people being processed at a time is usually handled, and pretty much for this very reason.
quote:
In this case, people are panicking from a potential danger (a fire), and when panicking from such a danger, some people can't think clearly and they are so busy trying to react to the danger that they maybe unable to take the time required to plan things out and coordinate things among the crowd. In the case of Wal - Mart, no such danger existed, so this seems to be a poor comparison.
It's an emotion based response exacerbated by an unusual situation that defies general expectations of what *should* happen. As such, there's really no practical difference between panic from a fire, and hyper-excitement caused by whipping a crowd into a foot-race mentality. The thought is "it's a race! People are moving! I must move to keep up!" The idea that someone could be hurt up ahead does not even occur.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 7:42:20 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1369
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
The packaging and arrangement on the shipping skids was done by the manufacturer of the items.
It's very telling about our values when everyone involved, from the manufacturers, to the distributors (if any), to the retailers, to the customers all managed to prevent any merchandise from being broken but they didn't manage to prevent this employee from being injured.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 7:46:55 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1369
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Humans are smarter than water only to the extent that they're aware of the circumstances.
A little bit of extra common sense could have prevented this. Again, I don't buy the notion that this crowd was too stupid to have avoided this. With just a little extra mental effort, this could have been avoided. If they had just applied a little common sense, they could have figured out that they shouldn't rush the door like they did. Excuse me for expecting more out of humans than I do out of water molecules.
quote:
It's an emotion based response exacerbated by an unusual situation that defies general expectations of what *should* happen. As such, there's really no practical difference between panic from a fire, and hyper-excitement caused by whipping a crowd into a foot-race mentality.
The practical difference is that, in one situation (the fire), your life maybe in danger, in the other, maybe only a few dollars are in danger (you may otherwise have to buy the item for a little more). In the latter, there is no reason not to apply a bit of common sense to avoid killing someone. You compare a sale to people exiting a building from a fire as if the value of the savings from the sale is worth as much as the value of exiting a potentially dangerous situation caused by a potential fire. There is no comparison.
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The thought is "it's a race! People are moving! I must move to keep up!" The idea that someone could be hurt up ahead does not even occur.
It's a race ... to save a few bucks!!!!... so the idea that someone could get hurt is not an important one to consider. The fact that such an important idea does not occur, just because one can save a few bucks, is telling.
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 12/1/2008 7:59:46 PM >
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 8:00:19 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
Public nuisance laws DO require property owners- including retail/commercial properties- to regulate their premises for the safety of their customers. The problem is that few retailers follow these laws. Wal-mart certainly has the money to hire a few security guards year-round and extras for Black Friday and other "special" sales days to prevent such unruly behavior and dangerous conditions. They should also follow the law and keep people off the premises before the store opens. Customers who refuse to co-operate should be charged and turned over to the police.
And when those rent-a-cops starting man-handling folks some of same people here wringing their hands over this would speak of suing Wal-Mart for being heavy handed because they are big company therefore evil.. And the idea of having CUSTOMERS arrested for waiting for the store to open is ludicrous...
It would depend upon how well the security guards are trained, I suppose, but their presence could have provided enough of a deterrent to keep the crowds in line rather than busting thru the doors and trampling people. Security guards have legal protection to perform their duties, including crowd control... if a customer gets unruly and has to be "manhandled" a bit, well- so be it.
People waiting for 15-20 minutes for the store is acceptable. Camping out all night to get in first is loitering, which is a misdemeanor crime.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 8:06:35 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1500
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But again, they didn't realize someone was being trampled. They just thought they were getting in the doors. The "rush in the doors" scenario happened all over the country, but only in a single instance was someone trampled to death. Now, we can debate whether or not rushing in doors should be considered bad behavior, but the reality is that doing so does not generally result in someone dying, so saying that people should have expected someone to be trampled is a bit absurd imho.
It's like driving. You do not go out and drive expecting someone to leap in front of your car on the interstate. It does occasionally happen, but it's not something the average person really thinks about. People do not generally get into their car and think "wow, I hope nobody leaps in front of my car on the interstate today". This did, however, happen to someone I know. Was it his fault for not anticipating that someone (apparently suicidal) might leap in front of his car while traveling down the interstate? I would hope not. Even if he were speeding a bit, "rushing in" so to speak, it would still be absurd to insist that he should have expected that someone suicidal might leap in front of his car while he was traveling down the interstate, and that he should only go, say, 25 mph down the interstate just in case (as frankly going the speed limit wouldn't have helped either).
The place the common sense should have been applied would have been to have sufficient resources allocated by the store to avoid encouraging/allowing people to rush into the doors in the first place, or at least in getting the employees out of the way.
There is nothing in particular wrong with participating in a race. The responsibility to make sure that the raceway is reasonably safe is generally delegated to those sponsoring the race.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 8:38:23 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
It's like driving. You do not go out and drive expecting someone to leap in front of your car on the interstate.
It's not the same thing. When driving, there are no doors in front of you where it can reasonably be assumed that someone could be opening those doors.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 8:50:02 PM
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Bettawrekonize
Posts: 1369
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
The place the common sense should have been applied would have been to have sufficient resources allocated by the store to avoid encouraging/allowing people to rush into the doors in the first place, or at least in getting the employees out of the way.
The store is also at fault for this.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 9:22:10 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
It's like driving. You do not go out and drive expecting someone to leap in front of your car on the interstate.
It's not the same thing. When driving, there are no doors in front of you where it can reasonably be assumed that someone could be opening those doors.
It's unlikely that this security guard was physically opening these doors, either. The doors are automated and slide on a track; they don't swing out. The only "opening" he would have been doing would have been to flick a switch on the door frame.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/1/2008 10:37:56 PM
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garsyt
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But it is also mentioned in the article that the crowd didn't even let the doors OPEN! They took them right off their hinges! Broke them down! Even just flicking the switch on the doors was a dangerous situation for this poor man!
Blessings,
Garsy
_____________________________
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/2/2008 2:29:34 PM
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cinderella092003
Posts: 127
Joined: 6/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
Public nuisance laws DO require property owners- including retail/commercial properties- to regulate their premises for the safety of their customers. The problem is that few retailers follow these laws. Wal-mart certainly has the money to hire a few security guards year-round and extras for Black Friday and other "special" sales days to prevent such unruly behavior and dangerous conditions. They should also follow the law and keep people off the premises before the store opens. Customers who refuse to co-operate should be charged and turned over to the police.
And when those rent-a-cops starting man-handling folks some of same people here wringing their hands over this would speak of suing Wal-Mart for being heavy handed because they are big company therefore evil.. And the idea of having CUSTOMERS arrested for waiting for the store to open is ludicrous...
We went out shopping on Black Friday this year. We went to Walmart first and waited in line to get the couple items that we were gonna get for our daughter. The bad thing about there was that they are normally supposed to have people guarding the stacks of merchandise so people don't grab things. We saw quite a few people that were taking items that weren't even waiting in lines. This was getting the people that were waiting in lines very irate. Most of the employees were too afraid to say anything to the customers. When the sale finally happened, there were people jumping into lines, in front of people, and grabbing items. There was even a fist fight over a camera.
We also went to Target. The store opened and hour after Walmart and we got there before the store opened. About 10 minutes before the store opened, one of the managers came out and was briefing everyone on the rules of shopping in their store. They told everyone that if they pushed and shoved, or trampled anyone, or fought, that they would be removed from the store. They even had 5 police officers assigned to the store. Two to walk throughout the store, one posted at the registers, one at the doors, and one going around the parking lot. They had maps to help people find their items, and they even handed out tickets for the Top 5 items, that way there was no mad dash to get them.
Walmart can and should be doing a lot more. My husband and I both used to work there. Most likely there will be a new policy that will come down for this next Black Friday that comes because this situation finally happened. Sadly it is too late for this man.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/3/2008 4:23:02 AM
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annieflowergirl
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From: Indiana
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I think that it just goes to show the greed of people. To put that much value in STUFF!!
_____________________________
"Live Simply, Love Generously, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Leave The Rest To God"
Lee Ann
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/3/2008 5:14:00 AM
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HisLamb26
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I can't think of ONE thing I would want bad enough to fight black friday crowds for.........
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/3/2008 2:28:16 PM
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stellaluna
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The family has filed suit:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,460924,00.html
quote:
"We’re going to be suing Wal-Mart as well as the owner of the mall, the security company, and we’re contemplating an action against the police and the county of Nassau, although we’re waiting to see what our investigation fleshes out about their involvement," Hecht told FOXNews.com Tuesday.
Named in the suit are Wal-Mart, Green Acres Mall in Nassau County, N.Y., Vornado Realty Trust and Securitas Security Services USA. Damour, a 6-foot-5, 270-pound temporary worker, was asphyxiated at the Wal-Mart in Valley Stream, N.Y., Friday morning while trying to shield a pregnant shopper from the throngs of bargain hunters pushing their way in.
That guy was huge! That shows how scary and dangerous a mob like that can be.
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RE: Wal-Mart Worker Dies When Shoppers Break Down Doors - 12/3/2008 3:23:14 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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I hope that the family gets justice, but knowing how Wal-mart does business, I hope they're prepared to be legally and financially harrassed.
I disagee with the attorney- the shoppers ARE responsible for their behavior and should also bear the consequences for their actions. Wal-mart may have incited them with the advertising for the sale and by not providing crowd control, but no one forced them to act like savages.
Wal-mart is most definitely at fault for putting this man in harm's way by asking him to be a security guard when he was not trained as such. They are at fault for not hiring experienced crowd management personnel and proper barricades to channel the crowd in an orderly manner. And they are at fault for inciting the crowd with advertising intended to cause a frenzy.
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