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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 2:05:45 AM
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saraimay75
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The trouble with spring traps is that yu need a lure like food and food can attract other creature like roaches and we had some BIG bugs here in Hawaii (some them have known to fly).
Glue traps don't always work we once had a big mouse and we put out glue traps. The trouble was the mouse we had would run acroos the trap taking the trap with it then free itself from the trap. So the trap would trap the moue but only for a moment.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 2:19:24 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
Then you have to see it's guts?
Same thing I have to see when one of our cats (or our dogs) leaves its trophy on the porch. What about when we shoot a deer to feed the family? They're pests where I live. Only, they're tasty. We have to dig the guts out before dragging it home for the meat.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 2:20:36 AM
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lw9
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We use the live traps, and they work great. I don't see the need for animals to suffer unnecessarily, and I think that's part of just being good stewards. How a person or society treats animals can often be an indicator of how they treat people.
I had a nice surprise one time when I thought I was releasing just one mouse, but two popped out of the trap and made a dash for it. It was pretty funny.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 5:46:20 AM
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SonInMe1
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Our dogs primarily fed themselves on the farm. It kept the wood chuck population down. They would kill the woodchuck..and set it in front of the barn to...cure...for a few days before eating it.
Our dogs would follow the hay rake. As it turned over the windrows of hay it would expose field mice which the dogs ate, head first in one gulp.
We had a cow that died and needed to be bled out if her meat was to be good. We hooked the "elbows" of her back legs with hooks, raised her up with the bucket and slit her throat.
My dad would kill and butcher deer. They would hang in the garage for a while.
Life, births, which we routinely involved ourselves in, breeding, death...it was all a part of farm life..and oh yes, manure. So, what makes city people cringe, we find natural and normal.
We also had numerous barn cats. When they overpopulated, they would start to beome ill, distemper, and they would die off, except two or three...and start all over again.
Did you know cows have different personalities and a hierarchy in the herd? We had a small milking parlor and the same 6 cows would come in first...and the same six cows would come in last...every night.
Our cows were all holstiens, black and white cows. We bought a nice big hefer from the neighbors, an ayrshire ( sp ) which was red and white. Within a few days, the holstien cows killed that hefer.
We had a black dog, a female. That dog killed all the cats in the barn except...a black cat. When that black cat had kittens, those black kittens would crawl up on that dog...and kneed their way to comfort, much to the discomfort of the dog, and go to sleep. Dog liked it.
I was raised around hundreds of animals and when the debate comes up if animals have spirits or not...I laugh. I know they don't. They are purley instinctive. No question.
So....yes, rural life is much different than city life. In fact, in my experience, the biggest differences between people are not ethnic, religion, or color, buts its where you were raised, country, or city.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 10:55:06 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
Our cows were all holstiens, black and white cows. We bought a nice big hefer from the neighbors, an ayrshire ( sp ) which was red and white. Within a few days, the holstien cows killed that hefer.
We had a black dog, a female. That dog killed all the cats in the barn except...a black cat. When that black cat had kittens, those black kittens would crawl up on that dog...and kneed their way to comfort, much to the discomfort of the dog, and go to sleep. Dog liked it.
wow! Racism is prevelant among animals too. 
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 12:42:02 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
Old fashioned spring type mousetraps or cats are the best answers to mouse control. 
Or a bull snake under the house. Between the cats, the snakes, the owls and hawks, the foxes, and other predators, we don't have a mouse problem. I encourage the spider- as long as they stay outside- to eat up allof the insectsthey want. If they get inside they are caught and put back out. Plus, I stuff steel wool around all of the electrical and plumbing conduits into the house to keep the critters out, and keep the house-especially the kitchen- clean. No food scraps or crumbs- no pests. All doorways and windows are checked to make sure they are sealed and fit tight, and are fixed if they don't. The eaves, too, are inspected for fit.
The pet food is kept up in sealed bins between feedings and their food/water bowls and feeding areas are cleaned daily. They are fed outside on the porch.
We do treat for termites with bait traps, and do the same for fire ants when we find them. I also cut osage orange fruits into halves and place around the foundation and under the house, which repels insects. I have used boric acid powder for ants and roaches in one place we lived (rental home), and will bug-bomb when needed. I also use boric acid under the house to inhibit termites and carpenter ants.
We treat our animals with Frontline (dogs and cats) and StockGuard (cows and horses), and I periodically put powder for poultry lice and mites in their dust-bath area. The yard is cleaned of dog and kitty poo as soon as it's found. The hen house and poultry yard are kept clean, as is the barnyard, and once a month I spray the inside of the henhouse down with sanitizer. The concrete floor gets scrubbed down weekly with bleach. All of the manure goes to a pile out past the barn with the compost, and it is turned every couple of days. We have dung beetles and earthworms who work it as well.
If there is a problem with "pests" and especially those who carry disease, one must of course take action to protect the health of the family, but it is important to prevent infestation by keeping one's home- and yard- clean and uninviting to pests in the first place. Encouraging natural predators is healthier than using poisons and should be practiced whenever possible. If not possible, then use poisons and traps judiciously.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 12:42:59 PM
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lw9
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quote:
SonInMe1: Life, births, which we routinely involved ourselves in, breeding, death...it was all a part of farm life..and oh yes, manure. So, what makes city people cringe, we find natural and normal.
What makes me cringe is willful animal cruelty. That's all I'm saying. Please don't paint us all as ignorant city folk who know nothing about the natural cycle of life. I've lived both in the city and the country complete with horses and tons of cats. Farm animals do not have to suffer long slow painful deaths from disease when there are so many alternatives like vaccinations, preventive treatments, and population control through spaying and neutering. PaleHawkWoman's post above is an excellent example of responsible animal care. My husband grew up on a farm and regularly hunts. I've participated in bird and deer hunts and watched him gut and clean many, many animals. I have no problem with hunting as long as it's done responsibly, quickly, and legally, which he has always done.
Regarding farming - A farm owner can choose to treat the animals in their care properly and responsibly... or they can choose to treat their animals badly. It's totally in their hands as to which way they go.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/29/2008 1:18:25 PM >
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 7:46:51 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
wow! Racism is prevelant among animals too.
Carnal is as carnal does. I have a few homosexual stories as well, just to prove once and for all with the absence of the Spirit, carnality ( instinct ) rules.
quote:
Farm animals do not have to suffer long slow painful deaths from disease when there are so many alternatives like vaccinations, preventive treatments, and population control through spaying and neutering.
These are not pets. They are essentially wild cats. To immunize 15 cats is impractical. There is an alternative....15 22 shells.
That...is life. Its the natural cycle of life. When an area becomes overpopulated, "nature" demands a price. To presume this is cruelty is to be ignorant of natural processes.
Spiders...treated with respect because they kept the fly population down which is a good thing on a farm.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 9:12:35 PM
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utilityfielder
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Back when I was in college, I lived in an old house with several guys. For awhile after we moved in we had a severe mouse problem. We set traps throughout the house and kept the tally of kills on the fridge.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/29/2008 10:21:25 PM
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lw9
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quote:
SonInMe1: These are not pets. They are essentially wild cats. To immunize 15 cats is impractical.
You said the population was often down to 2 or 3 cats due to disease. Seems like the perfect time to neuter and spay. Just sayin.
quote:
When an area becomes overpopulated, "nature" demands a price. To presume this is cruelty is to be ignorant of natural processes.
I understand what you're saying, but there's a huge difference between animals living in the wild and animals living on a farm. Animals living on a farm and serving a purpose should be under the care of the farmer. There are times when a farm can have too many cattle, but oddly enough I don't see farmers allowing their cattle to become diseased and die painful deaths to let 'nature' take it's course. 
Living out in the country when I was growing up, cats from town were dumped on our road quite frequently. We had 12 kittens at one time because someone dumped 3 pregnant cats near our property, and each cat had 4 kittens. My parents had the choice to euthanize them, give them to a shelter, or keep them. They chose to keep them. At that point, they became our responsibility which meant caring for their health even though they were strictly outdoors cats rather than pets. No one forced them to keep the cats, just as no one forces anyone to start a farm and raise animals. It's a choice like anything else. If it cannot be done responsibly and humanely, there's also the choice of selling the farm and finding new employment.
Edited for clarification.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/30/2008 12:39:31 AM >
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/30/2008 10:51:16 AM
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SonInMe1
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There were two choices when a cat got sick....let the natural take place...or a 5 cent 22 shell. There was no way we would spay or neuter a barn cat...or a house cat. Spending that kind of money would be...poor business....
and we didn't have it.
They fed themselves, mostly, except for some milk. If they overpopulated nature had its way to get the problem down. Its not cruel, its the way life is.
If a cow dropped below a certain milk production...hamburger. They are not pets. Its a business. If the cats die off...sooner or later more will come. No need to fix them or treat them, that would be a poor business decision.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/30/2008 1:58:22 PM
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zamdad
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Time to spay and neuter farm cats? Is this Bob Barker talking? This is the city slicker mentality telling country folks how to live. There's a difference between house cats and barn cats. And, comparing farm cats to cattle is absurd.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 11/30/2008 3:34:16 PM
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lw9
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SonInMe1:
Thanks for the response, and no, I didn't expect you to agree with me!  I just wanted to present another side to this - which is that there are alternatives and choices in how people treat animals. People can choose to ignore the alternatives, but they're there nonetheless.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/1/2008 4:43:10 AM
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SonInMe1
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Animals are tools.
They have no spirit. They are not spiritual.
Like tools, they should be treated well. However they exist in their world with their rules.
A barn cat lives its own life. Its not cared for, though for some we did have "relationships" with them. Some were as wild as any animal. Some spent time with us but all, were free and wild, living their lives as they wanted to do, as instinct demanded.
That black cat that survived the dog? It would ride on our shoulders as we milked the cows. It would even recieve milk squirted from a teat. I have no idea what happened to it. Might have been dystemper. Might have been another animal. Might be old age. It lived its life as it saw fit.
There was nothing to care for. They lived in the barn for shelter, food source and what warmth it provided in the winter. We did not place them there, they came. Every barn had barn cats...well except my neighbor who killed his cats and that was the only way to keep them out.
Do you treat the squirlls in your neighborhood? Probably not.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 8:30:17 AM
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Cloak
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I definitely against it. It just breaks my heart. At shudder at the thought of it by just thinking about it or envisioning it.
God bless you for your tender heart Jewels!
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And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 5:25:02 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Animals are tools.
They have no spirit. They are not spiritual.
Like tools, they should be treated well. However they exist in their world with their rules.
Can you provide justification for this view?
The Scriptures say that we have dominion over creation. If I am not mistaken, this has been traditionally interpreted to mean that we are therefore, resposible for creation. There is a phrase, "kosher kill", that I have understood to refer to, among other things, the quickest and most painless method of killing an animal. This seems to come from an understanding that we are to emulate the graciousness of Adonai. I have no Scripture for this. I just understand it to be the traditional method.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 12/2/2008 5:33:42 PM >
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 7:48:29 PM
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SonInMe1
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I know this is a radical thought but..animals are not human.
I know you see talking cartoon animals and want to place a spirit within them but the fact is, they do not have spirit. They are carnal beings, living in a carnal world.
Of all the people I know in this world there isn't a more compassionate person, esspecially toward animals than my father. Unfortuantely today, there is a disconnect between city and farm. With the advent of large corporate farms, few people have farmers in their families anymore. They don't understand what true animal husbandry, in the broadest sence, is.
Do you know why hunting isn't cruel? In fact it is very humane.
Have you watched the natural proccesses between animals for years?
Not only are animals cruel in nature, they are filled with a self centeredness few humans can emulate.
Ever see the "top cat"? The dominant male in a group of cats? He is battle scarred and tough. He enforces his will through homosexual acts. He will battle and kill any intruders. He will kill kittens.
I had a calf that I took to the fair. When she grew, of course we milked her. When she became "non-viable", her production dropped, we culled her and had her for many suppers. That....is the way that goes.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 8:35:40 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I know this is a radical thought but..animals are not human.
I know you see talking cartoon animals and want to place a spirit within them but the fact is, they do not have spirit. They are carnal beings, living in a carnal world.
Of all the people I know in this world there isn't a more compassionate person, esspecially toward animals than my father. Unfortuantely today, there is a disconnect between city and farm. With the advent of large corporate farms, few people have farmers in their families anymore. They don't understand what true animal husbandry, in the broadest sence, is.
Do you know why hunting isn't cruel? In fact it is very humane.
Have you watched the natural proccesses between animals for years?
Not only are animals cruel in nature, they are filled with a self centeredness few humans can emulate.
Ever see the "top cat"? The dominant male in a group of cats? He is battle scarred and tough. He enforces his will through homosexual acts. He will battle and kill any intruders. He will kill kittens.
I had a calf that I took to the fair. When she grew, of course we milked her. When she became "non-viable", her production dropped, we culled her and had her for many suppers. That....is the way that goes.
I did not mention any of those things nor am I saying they are human. I just asked how you know they have no spirit. In fact, it seems that you are the one making assumptions based on human morality. The things you attribute to the animals are also true of human beings, yet no one says a person literally has no spirit. They say he has an evil spirit. Now, whether an animal is good of evil is something we can not judge, for Adonai has not let us in on the plan for animals, apart from the fact that we are to have dominion over them. So, if you have any way of proving whether or not animals have spirits, I would be happy to hear your evidence.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 9:18:21 PM
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garsyt
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How did these go from talking about little pests like mice, bugs and spiders, to farm cats and cattle?
Sometimes on a farm (yes I did grow up in the country) the best and most humane thing one could do was to put an animal down, to kill them. When dog went mean and started killing chickens or ducks or other animals or turning on us kids, that dog was put down. We would not give them away because we did not want the animal hurting some child. When cats could not take care of themselves or got distemper they were taken out back and killed. If the cat population became to much - we would try to give away some of the younger cats and kittens and sometimes the cats themselves took care of the overpopulation. That's not saying tears weren't shed, because we loved our pets, but we also knew growing up that this was a way of life on the farm. Chickens were used for laying hens and when laying dropped off they were killed for a meal. Cows were raised and butchered. The reason Dad hunted was to provide meat for the table.
Mice and rats were/are killed without regard to how it "felt" to them. Mice breed like crazy and bring disease and destroy property. I have NO problem whatsoever with whatever method is used. I prefer the spring loaded bait traps using a small amount of peanut butter and a tiny piece of cheese the stickier the better! On the farm growing up skunks, cats that caused problems, raccoons, badgers and certain snakes were shot without a second thought. This past fall I had NO problem at all beating to death with a baseball bat a rabid badger that came at me in my backyard! It likely wasn't very comfortable for that blasted rodent, but better him dead then me or one of my kids being bitten and dealing not only with the scars and damage from that but the rabies as well. Bugs do not belong in my house. That's all there is to it. Spiders I don't mind but my youngest dd is terrified of them so we try to keep her bedroom spider free and I will smash one if she is freaking out over it.
Blessings,
Garsy
< Message edited by garsyt -- 12/3/2008 5:11:32 PM >
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 10:22:50 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 644
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I know this is a radical thought but..animals are not human.
I know you see talking cartoon animals and want to place a spirit within them but the fact is, they do not have spirit. They are carnal beings, living in a carnal world.
Of all the people I know in this world there isn't a more compassionate person, esspecially toward animals than my father. Unfortuantely today, there is a disconnect between city and farm. With the advent of large corporate farms, few people have farmers in their families anymore. They don't understand what true animal husbandry, in the broadest sence, is.
Do you know why hunting isn't cruel? In fact it is very humane.
Have you watched the natural proccesses between animals for years?
Not only are animals cruel in nature, they are filled with a self centeredness few humans can emulate.
Ever see the "top cat"? The dominant male in a group of cats? He is battle scarred and tough. He enforces his will through homosexual acts. He will battle and kill any intruders. He will kill kittens.
I had a calf that I took to the fair. When she grew, of course we milked her. When she became "non-viable", her production dropped, we culled her and had her for many suppers. That....is the way that goes.
Dude, if animals have no spirit or sentient thought then they are not capable of "self-centerdness".
Animals usually concern themselves pretty much over the following- food, sex, territory, shelter, and their offspring. Do they love? Yes. Do they seek love? yes. Animals demonstrate loyalty to the point of self-sacrifice for their humans as well as their offspring and other loved ones. Many animals demonstrate problem-solving skills that fewer humans seem capable of (speaking of dumbing down the species there) and many have long memories. Can they be selfish? Of course, and anyone who has watched feeding time knows this. There's little difference between small children and animals in this.
Humans do quite a bit of the stronger abusing the weaker ourselves, and we also engage in cruelty in our treatment of each other-spreading gossip and rumors to assissinate someone's character, excluding others from our cliques, ignoring those we see as unimportant or undesirable, blaming those we victimize, crowing over our conquests.
That being said, animals do not think like humans. Most are incapable of deceit. Most do not have appear to have a concept of past or future. To live with humans requires training to alter natural behaviors, which is why wild animals should not be made into pets as they have not been selectively bred for trainable behavior. I have the utmost respect for animals, and it is part of my culture to think of them as belonging not to any human but to the One who made them, and we ask His permission before killing one. We apologize to the animal for any pain we caused it, and to God for taking the life of His creation. There is no such thing as hunting for "sport".
Those animals under our care are cared for- vaccinated, wormed, fed and sheltered, and the dogs and cats are neutered. With the livestock, any males not used for breeding are castrated. With the cows, the beef cows are kept until they are no longer fertile and then sold for slaughter. The milk cow, well we aren't running a dairy so she'll be able to live out her life here- she's pretty much a pet anyway. The bulls are sold every three years to bring in new blood.
Stray dogs and cats turn up and I take them to the Humane Society and pay for their neutering. Rarely do I have to kill one, unless it attacks the livestock. My horse is nearly 20 yrs old and I will keep her until she dies or is not able to live without suffering, at which point I'll have her humanely put down. Our old mule died at age 42- he worked very hard for many years-until he was in his 30's and earned the right to be cared for in his old age. Once a week he got a couple of quarts of beer and a pint of bourbon in the egg bucket, and a plug of black cherry chewing tobacco.
As the gardeners, we are supposed to care for God's creation as part of our service to Him, meaning we are to do so with excellence. These are God's creatures- we do not own them any more than we own ourselves, and we will be held accountable for how we care for His property. Anyone who loves God will not mistreat His critters.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 10:38:43 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4761
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I know this is a radical thought but..animals are not human.
I know you see talking cartoon animals and want to place a spirit within them but the fact is, they do not have spirit. They are carnal beings, living in a carnal world.
Of all the people I know in this world there isn't a more compassionate person, esspecially toward animals than my father. Unfortuantely today, there is a disconnect between city and farm. With the advent of large corporate farms, few people have farmers in their families anymore. They don't understand what true animal husbandry, in the broadest sence, is.
Do you know why hunting isn't cruel? In fact it is very humane.
Have you watched the natural proccesses between animals for years?
Not only are animals cruel in nature, they are filled with a self centeredness few humans can emulate.
Ever see the "top cat"? The dominant male in a group of cats? He is battle scarred and tough. He enforces his will through homosexual acts. He will battle and kill any intruders. He will kill kittens.
I had a calf that I took to the fair. When she grew, of course we milked her. When she became "non-viable", her production dropped, we culled her and had her for many suppers. That....is the way that goes.
Dude, if animals have no spirit or sentient thought then they are not capable of "self-centerdness".
Animals usually concern themselves pretty much over the following- food, sex, territory, shelter, and their offspring. Do they love? Yes. Do they seek love? yes. Animals demonstrate loyalty to the point of self-sacrifice for their humans as well as their offspring and other loved ones. Many animals demonstrate problem-solving skills that fewer humans seem capable of (speaking of dumbing down the species there) and many have long memories. Can they be selfish? Of course, and anyone who has watched feeding time knows this. There's little difference between small children and animals in this.
Humans do quite a bit of the stronger abusing the weaker ourselves, and we also engage in cruelty in our treatment of each other-spreading gossip and rumors to assissinate someone's character, excluding others from our cliques, ignoring those we see as unimportant or undesirable, blaming those we victimize, crowing over our conquests.
That being said, animals do not think like humans. Most are incapable of deceit. Most do not have appear to have a concept of past or future. To live with humans requires training to alter natural behaviors, which is why wild animals should not be made into pets as they have not been selectively bred for trainable behavior. I have the utmost respect for animals, and it is part of my culture to think of them as belonging not to any human but to the One who made them, and we ask His permission before killing one. We apologize to the animal for any pain we caused it, and to God for taking the life of His creation. There is no such thing as hunting for "sport".
Those animals under our care are cared for- vaccinated, wormed, fed and sheltered, and the dogs and cats are neutered. With the livestock, any males not used for breeding are castrated. With the cows, the beef cows are kept until they are no longer fertile and then sold for slaughter. The milk cow, well we aren't running a dairy so she'll be able to live out her life here- she's pretty much a pet anyway. The bulls are sold every three years to bring in new blood.
Stray dogs and cats turn up and I take them to the Humane Society and pay for their neutering. Rarely do I have to kill one, unless it attacks the livestock. My horse is nearly 20 yrs old and I will keep her until she dies or is not able to live without suffering, at which point I'll have her humanely put down. Our old mule died at age 42- he worked very hard for many years-until he was in his 30's and earned the right to be cared for in his old age. Once a week he got a couple of quarts of beer and a pint of bourbon in the egg bucket, and a plug of black cherry chewing tobacco.
As the gardeners, we are supposed to care for God's creation as part of our service to Him, meaning we are to do so with excellence. These are God's creatures- we do not own them any more than we own ourselves, and we will be held accountable for how we care for His property. Anyone who loves God will not mistreat His critters.
Excellent post to which I totally agree. May God bless you for your Christian soul!!!
We can't claim to be Christian and mistreat God and His creatures, be it pets or humans!
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Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/2/2008 11:52:52 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1755
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
garsyt
How did these go from talking about little pests like mice, bugs and spiders, to farm cats and cattle?
This questions has been brought up before, but no one has answered. I think much of our opinion on this matter comes from our worldiew which is shaped predominantly by popular culture. The majority of folks live in urban environments where the closest thing they see resembling how critters live is on Animal Planet.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: The ethics of killing little pests - 12/3/2008 7:40:05 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2957
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
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regarding Richard Simmons....that's the first time I think I've ever seen Kate and Kath not see eye to eye on something.
BTW, are you both Katherine (or Catherine, or some other variation), or is one of you Kathleen, or something altogether different?
I understand about wanting the guts on your husband's boots, not your own..I am so glad my dad took care of setting and disposing of the traps and I didn't have to.
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I guess we do disagree on a few things. 
