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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:37:06 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
quote:
See, right when I think I have understanding of it, then something else is said....Ben did not say, "You are suppose to continue to sin." He said, if we were capable of "not sinning" then why would we need the Holy Spirit. So, with that being said, whats wrong with that statement?
abby, try just getting these two things down first.
God never tells someone to do something that they can't do.
The proof of this is in 1 Corinthians Chapter 10
quote:
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has taken you except what is human; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able. But with the temptation, He will also make the way out, so that you may be able to bear it. That means that we can ALWAYS do the right thing. Don't let anyone lie to you about that. We may not be like superman and know everything but we NEVER have to do wrong.
And read Ezekiel Chapter 18
If you hang on to those two examples the the rest of it will start to make sense eventually. If you don't understand these things about the way God is then you'll get tossed around by the things people say. God is the Rock. If we grab on to Him we can't be shaken.
Peace,
benjoseph
Thank you for this post and for trying to help me to understand....but I know without a doubt, that God does not intend for us to continue to sin, and I know that temptation is not sin, but through the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, we overcome temptations, because we are CONQUERORS through CHRIST OUR LORD!
Im not having a problem understanding any of this. Believe me, I have walked the firey trials, the spiritual testing and am very thankful for it, and for the powerful lessons that I have been taught by Christ.
But you seem to be making out that we as "humans" in the flesh, can keep from sinning, and you're wrong, its impossible. If it were not for the Holy Spirit who lives within me, I would be NOTHING!!! He gets the GLORY, not me. If I were able to keep from sinning, without the POWER of the Holy Spirit, then shouldnt "I" Abby get the GLORY?? But thats not the way it works....HE GETS THE GLORY for the transformation that He has made within me.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:42:53 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
Jesus also had this slight advantage of, you know, being divine.
It was NOT easier for Jesus to live righteously.
Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathize with our infirmities,
but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
The whole point of this verse is that Jesus experienced the exact same difficulty that we experience with temptation. This verse shows that we CAN obey and that Jesus himself knows exactly what we are up against.
quote:
Of course the Holy Spirit has more functions than to keep us from sinning. However, if you could go back and defend how we can be sinless WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, I would really like to hear it. I don't think someone can truly repent of sinning and remain without the Holy Spirit for very long. Remember there is rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents. That shows that God is watching very closely and longing for people who will choose not to sin. Why would he hold back His Holy Spirit from them?
The whole problem is that you need milk before you can eat solid food.
Learn first that God will not allow obedience to be impossible.
Learn Ezekiel Chapter 18. Grow strong on the milk first, the simple things. Understand obedience with the heart of a child. Not with the mind of a scholar. Otherwise you will choke on the solid food (the deeper things) and not be able to swallow it OR the milk.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:48:33 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
quote:
Jesus also had this slight advantage of, you know, being divine.
It was NOT easier for Jesus to live righteously.
Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathize with our infirmities,
but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
The whole point of this verse is that Jesus experienced the exact same difficulty that we experience with temptation. This verse shows that we CAN obey and that Jesus himself knows exactly what we are up against.
It doesn't say that it was difficult. Do you see any point where Jesus sweated out a decision whether He should sin or not?
But maybe we are straying a little too much . . .
quote:
I don't think someone can truly repent of sinning and remain without the Holy Spirit for very long.
But if we are born WITHOUT a sin nature, and do not defy that nature we have, then what do we have to repent of? What sins?
quote:
Remember there is rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents. That shows that God is watching very closely and longing for people who will choose not to sin. Why would he hold back His Holy Spirit from them?
I didn't say God would. I'm saying, if you are correct, though, man doesn't necessarily NEED God to not sin.
But you have yet to explain how that is possible.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 9:08:22 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
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I'm going to answer these in the same posts.
quote:
But you seem to be making out that we as "humans" in the flesh, can keep from sinning, and you're wrong, its impossible.
No. That is not true. "humans" and "in the flesh" mean the same thing. Humans are made of flesh, flesh is just our bodies. Sometimes Paul uses the word "flesh" as a poetic symbol for when we used to obey our bodies' temptations. That's "following the flesh" in a sense. Or being "in the flesh". It just means choosing the wrong things. It doesn't mean we couldn't have stopped. Jesus was a "human in the flesh" too.
quote:
I don't know why you keep avoiding MY question. Let me try this again.
The verse says that GOD Himself will help us to lead us away from sin.
Your claim that man is NOT born with a sin nature means that man, WITHOUT GOD, can live WITHOUT sinning.
Explain. Why are you being impatient and making demands? It hasn't been very long since the post you said I "keep avoiding". (Unless I missed an earlier one). I don't mind answering your questions.
quote:
And I agree, please explain this, because you are making out as if Im missing something here, and thats not the case at all.
Abby I do think you were missing something based on the first thing I quoted up top. But The reason I wrote to you the way I did was because you seemed to be getting confused and I wanted to help you. I wasn't trying to belittle you or anything like that. People can get confused. A lot of the post on here are pretty confused. You said quote:
See, right when I think I have understanding of it, then something else is said... That made me think all the back and forth seemed confusing to you. That's why I said "try to get these two things first". I just meant it to help you.
I'll get to this demand now:
quote:
The verse says that GOD Himself will help us to lead us away from sin.
Your claim that man is NOT born with a sin nature means that man, WITHOUT GOD, can live WITHOUT sinning.
Explain.
You think I'm saying that those who are obedient are completely independent of God.
Not sinning is this:
1) Loving God with everything you've got.
2) Loving your neighbor as yourself (even as Jesus loved us)
You are suggesting that the sinless man is without God. I am not.
It's your choice but it's not like God is on vacation.
Enoch was obedient and pleased God.
It say Enoch walked WITH God.
Your question doesn't even make sense when you consider what sinning and not sinning is.
But just because no one who is righteous is without God does not mean that we can't choose to live righteously. We just have to stop sinning and trust Jesus.
Stop sinning.
Trust Jesus.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 9:11:07 PM
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conan
Posts: 109
Joined: 2/23/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
It doesn't say that it was difficult. Do you see any point where Jesus sweated out a decision whether He should sin or not?
Well there was that time when Jesus had to decide wether to do his own human will or the will of the Father ...he prayed in agaony (gk: agonia - a struggle for victory) ...and sweat drops of blood.
When he returned to find his disciples sleeping after asking them to pray with him/for him ...he told them to pray (as he was doing) lest they fall into temptation.
Jesus' humainty, the tematation he faced, was not religious theatre. It was real. For this reason we can love and appreacite Him that much more.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 9:13:29 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
You think I'm saying that those who are obedient are completely independent of God.
Not sinning is this:
1) Loving God with everything you've got.
2) Loving your neighbor as yourself (even as Jesus loved us)
Ahhh. And herein lies our problem. Maybe we should have defined sin first, huh?
Although, I had thought that you had previously stated it as following the law. Which, under the New Covenant, one can do, and not be saved.
Of course, one can love God and others and not be saved, either (cf Matthew 7).
quote:
You are suggesting that the sinless man is without God. I am not.
It's your choice but it's not like God is on vacation.
That actually was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that under your philosophy, a man could become sinless without having God. I was saying it wasn't possible.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 9:39:23 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
Of course, one can love God and others and not be saved, either (cf Matthew 7).
I don't think so. Can you explain that?
Of course God will save those who love him!
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 9:41:58 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
Jesus' humainty, the tematation he faced, was not religious theatre
I wasn't following the conversation but that is an excellent quote.
A lot of churches make it seem like religious theater because that's all they really do: put on a show.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 10:28:34 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
Did Jesus sin at all? Why did he need the Holy Spirit?
Jesus also had this slight advantage of, you know, being divine.
Of course the Holy Spirit has more functions than to keep us from sinning. However, if you could go back and defend how we can be sinless WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, I would really like to hear it.
I can.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right [...] hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God. (Ezekiel 18:4-9)
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes, and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. (Deuteronomy 30:10-16)
Sin is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If someone keeps the law, they are without sin (Ezekiel 18:4-9). The law is keepable (Deuteronomy 30:10-16, 1 John 5:3). Thus, it is possible. Christ is the perfect example. Regardless of who he was, he gave up his divinity and became a man (Philippians 2:5-8) in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3) who was like us in every way (Hebrews 2:15-18). He was born under the law (Galatians 4:4-5). He was tempted in all ways, even as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). And anyone, even those without God in their life, have the moral compass God gave us all to determine what is right and wrong, and to choose not to sin (Romans 2:11-16).
Jesus, in the same flesh we are in, with the same temptations we are faced with (and probably more), having the same law we have, made the conscious and deliberate choices necessary to a life of righteousness without sin. He kept the law that from its inception was always perfectly keepable, just like we could have done, but just didn't because we have all made the wrong choices in our lives (which is why we need his justification).
< Message edited by Theo-Minor -- 11/30/2008 10:34:53 PM >
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 10:35:40 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Josh4LinC,
quote:
Hello all,
I've been reading through this thread, and I finally have to put forth my two cents.
It has become apparent that those who oppose the doctrine of man's enslavement to sin are not in agreement with us that the Word of God is the sole source of our spiritual/moral instruction.
Most of the arguments they make are not even based on the Word, but on the folly of human logic.
When they have attempted to instruct us in the Word of God, they don't do anymore than assert that the passage isn't teaching what we believe it says.
They don't use any exegetical analysis.
Instead, they try to diminish translations.
For your information, the doctrine of original sin has been around for ages.
It was supported in the early church and carried on through the Reformation to this time (go back and read some of Dr. Martin Luther's arguments).
The doctrine has existed before there was an NIV translation.
It exists because people of God listen to what Scripture is saying.
They don't get caught up with labels.
It's like saying the Bible doesn't infer that God is triune in nature because trinity isn't actually in the Bible.
Therefore, I can't help but think that it is pointless to even argue this stuff anymore.
The arguments from the Word have been put forth and are substantial.
Either they'll submit to the Word of God or they won't.
I for one pray that they one day realize their folly and submit to the grace and mercy that is found in Christ Jesus, who is God become man now glorified.
Only through Him can we cast off this old self and arise a new creation.
That was much more than 2 cents dude!
That was like ship loads of gold bullion!
It was a pleasure to read.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 10:44:35 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Theo-minor,
quote:
I didn't ask about temptation, or why you or anyone else is tempted. You say you sin. I just want to know if you sin by choice or compulsion. So answer the question.
Edited for typo.
By the way ... a one-word answer will suffice. Choice or Compulsion.
Thats ok.....I would rather answer with Scripture.
You dont understand the different ways the word "tempted" is used.
I guess now I need to figure out how perfect people make typos! 
5 This is what the LORD says:
"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength
and whose heart turns away from the LORD.
6 He will be like a bush in the wastelands;
he will not see prosperity when it comes.
He will dwell in the parched places of the desert,
in a salt land where no one lives.
7 "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose confidence is in him.
8 He will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit."
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
Truly blessed is the man that has trust in the Lord.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 11:16:15 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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Yeah, I didn't think you'd answer. Folks like you are all the same. You make an argument, but you don't have the courage to put it to the test. Your argument falls apart over a simple question; choice or compulsion, because we both know that the Bible condemns your answer either way, and in fact states that we shouldn't choose it and aren't compelled to it. So to answer according to your doctrine proves that your house is built on sand.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 1:39:14 AM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
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I think KJB gave you his answer, Theo. KJB is following Jesus' example. When Jesus was tempted by Satan after 40 days in the desert, He countered every temptation by quoting Scripture. When the Pharisees sought to trap Jesus in their entangling arguments, He never gave into their pat answers. Jesus almost always responded, "It is written." Therefore, He set the example that KJB and others are following.
Jesus came to fulfill the law, and through faith in Him, we are credited righteousness. Abraham was credited righteousness due to his faith in God and not his works. It is also written,
19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22. even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24. being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25. whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26. to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:19-28
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 2:21:17 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
, but just didn't because we have all made the wrong choices in our lives (which is why we need his justification).
But how do you know that I have?
You have opened up the ability for me to live a life without sin.
If I were able to do so, I wouldn't need Jesus' death.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 7:19:30 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Theo-Minor,
quote:
Yeah, I didn't think you'd answer. Folks like you are all the same. You make an argument, but you don't have the courage to put it to the test. Your argument falls apart over a simple question; choice or compulsion, because we both know that the Bible condemns your answer either way, and in fact states that we shouldn't choose it and aren't compelled to it. So to answer according to your doctrine proves that your house is built on sand.
Here is the thread topic;
there's no sin nature
Here is my first post on this thread in response to HisFish saying "Then you've never had kids.'
quote:
LOL.............very good point!
KJB
I think that alone could sum it up for most people.
Do you have to train kids to do evil with an outside source, or do they just do evil and it stems from their own inner nature?
Here is my second post in response to the thread topic;
"Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
I guess we need to show text on how we got it."
The part in red comes right out of the Bible.
The thread topic there's no sin nature loses hands down when it is put to the test of Scripture.
Now, for all the people that wanted to start showing how great and perfect they can be, and how humans can keep the whole law of God since their childhood......we have another problem with their POV when put to the test of Scripture.
It clearly says there is a sinful nature and the sinful nature cannot please God in any way. So how can a person with a sinful nature please God by keeping all the law? He cant. It is just not possible.
There is another way though and since it is called another way it is not the same way as keeping the law..........thats why it is "another" way.
This other way cannot be to do with the sinful nature. The man on his own cant please God.
The other way is faith and it only applies to those that have the Spirit of Christ controlling them.
This does not mean these people never sin.
In its simple form of explanation it means that those controlled by the Spirit have faith.
And those with faith please God.
The righteous shall live by faith.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 12:00:22 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
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The NIV is NOT a worthless version of the bible but this verse does not say sinful nature in greek.
Those controlled by the SARX cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the SARX but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
SARX just means the soft gushy stuff that hangs on your bones.
SARX = Flesh
As in your body.
SARX does NOT mean an inherited inability to be morally perfect. That's why the NIV probably deserves the award for worst translation of this passage. Their translation is just wrong here. They did a decent job with the whole bible. I imagine it would be hard to completely ruin the entire text. But this verse does NOT say sinful nature.
So can someone's body make them steal?
Can someone's body make them lie?
Can someone's body make them eat to much?
No.
So what does "controlled by the flesh[sarx]" mean then?
The bible says that, whomever you obey, you are that one's slave.
So if you obey every craving of your sarx, your body, then you freely make yourself a slave of your body by your own choice. It doesn't mean that you don't have the choice to start or stop sinning.
The Spirit of Christ is given to all who refuse to make themselves slaves to what their bodies want and choose to love God instead.
You cannot serve two masters. God's spirit is jealous.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 12:19:55 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Don't forget, scripture describes all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Rags as soaked with putrefied pus from an unclean leper.
That's not much of a compliment...
Wrong rags. If I am not mistaken the prophet was refering the ones that get used at a certain time every month. This might also support the "natural" state of our sins.
Sorry, all I have to rely on for information regarding the meaning of words are Bible scholars like Matthew Henry, where I found my "wrong" definition:
We are all as an unclean thing, or as an unclean person, as one overspread with a leprosy, who was to be shut out of the camp. The body of the people were like one under a ceremonial pollution, who was not admitted into the courts of the tabernacle, or like one labouring under some loathsome disease, from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot nothing but wounds and bruises, ch. 1:6. We have all by sin become not only obnoxious to God’s justice, but odious to his holiness; for sin is that abominable thing which the Lord hates, and cannot endure to look upon. Even all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. (1.) "The best of our persons are so; we are all so corrupt and polluted that even those among us who pass for righteous men, in comparison with what our fathers were who rejoiced and wrought righteousness (v. 5), are but as filthy rags, fit to be case to the dunghill. The best of them is as a brier.’’ (2.) "The best of our performances are so. There is not only a general corruption of manners, but a general defection in the exercises of devotion too; those which pass for the sacrifices of righteousness, when they come to be enquired into, are the torn, and the lame, and the sick, and therefore are provoking to God, as nauseous as filthy rags.’’ Our performances, though they be ever so plausible, if we depend upon them as our righteousness and think to merit by them at God’s hand, are as filthy rags—rags, and will not cover us—filthy rags, and will but defile us.
(Isaiah 64:6)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 12:52:05 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Don't forget, scripture describes all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Rags as soaked with putrefied pus from an unclean leper.
That's not much of a compliment...
Wrong rags. If I am not mistaken the prophet was refering the ones that get used at a certain time every month. This might also support the "natural" state of our sins.
Sorry, all I have to rely on for information regarding the meaning of words are Bible scholars like Matthew Henry, where I found my "wrong" definition:
We are all as an unclean thing, or as an unclean person, as one overspread with a leprosy, who was to be shut out of the camp. The body of the people were like one under a ceremonial pollution, who was not admitted into the courts of the tabernacle, or like one labouring under some loathsome disease, from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot nothing but wounds and bruises, ch. 1:6. We have all by sin become not only obnoxious to God’s justice, but odious to his holiness; for sin is that abominable thing which the Lord hates, and cannot endure to look upon. Even all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. (1.) "The best of our persons are so; we are all so corrupt and polluted that even those among us who pass for righteous men, in comparison with what our fathers were who rejoiced and wrought righteousness (v. 5), are but as filthy rags, fit to be case to the dunghill. The best of them is as a brier.’’ (2.) "The best of our performances are so. There is not only a general corruption of manners, but a general defection in the exercises of devotion too; those which pass for the sacrifices of righteousness, when they come to be enquired into, are the torn, and the lame, and the sick, and therefore are provoking to God, as nauseous as filthy rags.’’ Our performances, though they be ever so plausible, if we depend upon them as our righteousness and think to merit by them at God’s hand, are as filthy rags—rags, and will not cover us—filthy rags, and will but defile us.
(Isaiah 64:6)
Matthew (good Jewish name) Henry is, of course, being polite because, in his day, it was inappropriate to mention the true nature of the rags. No. The monthly nature of the rags (a true trans.) is not the point. The "filth" is the point and it is directed to the laws of bodily discharges, which is why M. Henry's interpretation is far more appropriate than the "'natural' state of our sins" view. Sin is not a rhythmic, or regular phenomenon. Sin is a ceremonially defiling phenomenon. The point is that the rags are soaked through with defiling filth and so are we, inside and out. As Jesus says, it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out of him, perfectly in tune with the laws of discharges. Read Haggai 2 for further on this.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 1:33:42 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
The bible says that, whomever you obey, you are that one's slave.
So if you obey every craving of your sarx, your body, then you freely make yourself a slave of your body by your own choice. It doesn't mean that you don't have the choice to start or stop sinning.
But, once again, according to your theory, we don't have a sin nature . . . so obeying our flesh would be the RIGHT thing to do, since it is inherently GOOD.
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love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 2:42:03 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
quote:
Jesus also had this slight advantage of, you know, being divine.
It was NOT easier for Jesus to live righteously.
Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathize with our infirmities,
but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
The whole point of this verse is that Jesus experienced the exact same difficulty that we experience with temptation. This verse shows that we CAN obey and that Jesus himself knows exactly what we are up against.
John tells us the nature of all sin:
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. -1 John 2:16
Are you saying that you believe God Incarnate experienced lust and pride and was drawn by the world?
I propose that Satan offered it all to Him but that, though He was fully Man, His divine nature, which is fully God, could not be made to inappropriately lust after His own creation.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 3:11:34 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
so obeying our flesh would be the RIGHT thing to do, since it is inherently GOOD.
That's a "false dilemma."
The two options of good and evil do not apply to substances.
Do you think that dirt is good?
Or that dirt is evil?
Our bodies are just dirt.
A man who choose to obey the unlawful cravings of his flesh is evil because of his choice. But his flesh is just dirt and is not good or evil. The word for it is amoral.
quote:
John tells us the nature of all sin:
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. -1 John 2:16
Are you saying that you believe God Incarnate experienced lust and pride and was drawn by the world?
I propose that Satan offered it all to Him but that, though He was fully Man, His divine nature, which is fully God, could not be made to inappropriately lust after His own creation.
Hebrews 4:15 says that the Lord Jesus experienced the same temptations that you and I do.
My understanding is this:
The temptation to lust is different than lust itself.
The temptation to be proud is different than pride itself.
The big difference between a temptation and a sin is a choice.
So if "the lust of the eyes" means choosing to lust with the eyes then NO Jesus never did that but we have. By choice though. We can't blame our eyes.
But if "the lust of the eyes" means the ability to experience temptation then we already know in Hebrews 4:15 that Jesus was just as exposed to temptation as we are.
Which of these two do you think John is referring in that verse?
quote:
1) But how do you know that I have [sinned]?
2) If I were able to [never sin], I wouldn't need Jesus' death.
I'm not ignoring your questions. Thanks for being patient.
I've got a couple discussions going on in another forum about this.
It seems to me that God had more in mind with Jesus' death than the atonement.
The atonement is real obviously. We all need it. But babies who die don't need someone (let alone the Son of God) to be killed in place of the punishment they deserve. Babies don't deserve punishment. So I believe it would be the same with the hypothetical man who never sinned. I believe there is more to Christ than him being the sacrificial Lamb. He is more than ONLY a sacrifice for your sin and I think his death may have much deeper significance. I'm still studying this though. What do you think? Do you think the only reason Jesus died is because men sinned? Or do you think God has even bigger plans as well the atonement for sin?
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RE: there's no sin nature - 12/1/2008 3:44:23 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1216
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
It seems to me that God had more in mind with Jesus' death than the atonement.
The atonement is real obviously. We all need it. But babies who die don't need someone (let alone the Son of God) to be killed in place of the puni | | |
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