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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 5:29:28 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Dear Abby,
Can you help me?
I have this problem......it is that I can never seem to be perfect.
Of course I would rather choose to be perfect, but I seem to be flawed.
I think it might have something to do with my nature?
Do you think it may be something else.......like maybe some bad milk I drank?
I just had to try out a "Dear Abby"........AbbyGrace....... 
I think what benjoseph is trying to show us all is that it is not in the nature of human beings to sin.
I think it is in the nature of human beings to sin.
I think human beings come with this nature from the "human being factory" and they cannot avoid having it no matter what.
God bless AbbyGrace!
KJB
Hey KJB ... do you sin by choice or compulsion?
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 5:36:52 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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AbbyGrace,
quote:
I think that maybe you felt that I was being sarcastic in my post, but i wasnt at all, it was a question that I had, and was only wanting understanding on it, so Im sorry if you felt i was being sarcastic or if I offended anyone.
Abby
Nope....I dont think you were being sarcastic in the least. Not at all. Really I dont.
I was just trying to show how human nature really is by being a little bit funny with a "Dear Abby" letter.
I was not trying to be sarcastic either.
Think if someone wrote the same kind of letter to God instead of Dear Abby?
Picture it along with maybe how it might be answered;
quote:
Can you help me?
I might help you, what do you want?
quote:
I have this problem......it is that I can never seem to be perfect.
Well, that is because you are not perfect.
quote:
Of course I would rather choose to be perfect, but I seem to be flawed.
Well, you really have no choice in the matter because you are flawed.
quote:
I think it might have something to do with my nature?
Yes, it does.
By nature you are not perfect and I am.
quote:
Do you think it may be something else.......like maybe some bad milk I drank?
Nope.....it really has to do with your nature.
How would a non sin nature letter go?
quote:
Can you help me?
Sure......but is there a need when you are already perfect?
quote:
I have this problem......it is that I can never seem to be perfect.
Well you are perfect so what is the problem?
quote:
Of course I would rather choose to be perfect, but I seem to be flawed.
Flawed? Of course not. There is no flaw in your nature at all.
quote:
I think it might have something to do with my nature?
With one such as good as you are? I dont think so.
All people are able to be perfect so what is stopping you?
quote:
Do you think it may be something else.......like maybe some bad milk I drank?
It must be something else because it certainly is not your great and perfect nature.
Just the thought of a "no sin nature" POV kind of makes me a little sick.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 5:43:29 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
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If I was born without a sin nature, and can live without sinning . . . what do I need the Holy Spirit for? What do I need Christ's death for? What do I need Christianity for?
Could I not have been born in as a buddhist monk, and lived a life of perfect tranquility, sinless, and thus be saved?
Oh my. . . that's dangerous territory to tread in.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 5:53:52 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Theo-Minor,
quote:
Hey KJB ... do you sin by choice or compulsion?
Let Scripture answer it;
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me."
For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It comes from a nature. The desires of the human heart.
God cannot be tempted by evil and it says so.
That means when Jesus was tempted He had no evil desires at all in Him........none.
Evil desires did not exist in Him even though He faced the same sort of outward worldy temptations that we might.
Human nature is different.
Humans are tempted by their own inner evil desires when confronted with the temptations of worldy things.
Jesus can see a woman and not lust.
You on the other hand if confronted with such things might find the need to pluck your eye out.
Not that the absence of your eye will help your heart mind you.
I think we can get the picture.
When scripture talks about Jesus being tempted it means by outward sources......not His own heart.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 5:56:34 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
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1love1God1way,
quote:
If I was born without a sin nature, and can live without sinning . . . what do I need the Holy Spirit for? What do I need Christ's death for? What do I need Christianity for?
Could I not have been born in as a buddhist monk, and lived a life of perfect tranquility, sinless, and thus be saved?
Oh my. . . that's dangerous territory to tread in.
Good points.....and amen!
Dangerous territory indeed.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:08:43 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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I didn't ask about temptation, or why you or anyone else is tempted. You say you sin. I just want to know if you sin by choice or compulsion. So answer the question.
Edited for typo.
By the way ... a one-word answer will suffice. Choice or Compulsion.
< Message edited by Theo-Minor -- 11/30/2008 6:21:42 PM >
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:10:03 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
I do not believe in inherited sin...but do you believe that the flesh desires the sinful nature? Or is that different from what you are talking about?
hi abby,
Some people don't understand the difference between temptations and sinning.
If someone follows every temptation they have then they will probably think that temptation = sin.
Temptation is by our nature. Since the Lord Jesus had a body just like ours he experienced the same temptations that we do. He knew the difference between temptation and sin the whole time because he never chose to sin but he still had temptations.
A nature is something about the way you are that you did not have a choice about.
For instance, I have five fingers on both hands. I didn't choose to, I was just born that way.
That's what nature is.
Sin is totally different. Sin is wrong.
Your nature isn't "wrong" because it's just the way you were born.
You didn't choose it. Your parents didn't choose it. Adam didn't choose it.
It's the way God made us.
Sin is not something that God made though is it?
Sin is something that we chose to do because we wanted to be selfish.
God wants us to love, not to sin.
No one gets in trouble with God because of the way they were born. God is fair and not prejudice.
People who judge people for their nature (the way they were born) are called bigots.
Racism is a common example of bigotry and prejudice.
That's people judging people for something that was not their own choice.
God is not like that. God is good and kind.
God judges us in a fair way because he judges us by our choices and not the way we were born.
God made us in his image. We can choose to do different things just like God. God made us able to choose so we can love him and each other. If we didn't have a choice it wouldn't really be love would it?
God doesn't want robots, pets, zombies, etc. God wants real love from willing children.
God would not have pleasure in forced love.
He doesn't force us but gives us the ability to choose what we want.
That means that we can choose the wrong things too.
That's all sin is. Sin is choosing the wrong things.
Temptation is when our bodies want to do the wrong things.
That's not fun, but it's not like our bodies know any better.
That's ok because our bodies are not supposed to be in charge of us anyway!
We have the ability to choose and God wants us to choose his ways and then make our bodies do the right things instead of the wrong things.
God explained that to Cain before Cain killed his brother. God explained that Cain must not do the wrong things. He explained it in a certain way to Cain to help Cain understand that he had to be in charge of his own actions. God didn't want Cain to do wrong things. He wanted Cain to do the right things.
Some people think that they HAVE to sin.
Some people would rather die than stop sinning.
Sometimes when little children don't want to do something they whine about it and say "I can't..."
Have you ever seen that? That's not good behavior for an adult though! Adults should know better. Adults can make intelligent choices about what is right and wrong and follow through on those choices. That's self control. One of the main qualities of being an adult is self control. God demands that we exercise self control. That's what he was teaching Cain about. Anyone who doesn't have self control is in serious trouble.
Some people are born without enough self control. Some people are born with disabilities that make it so they don't know what they're doing or can't control their bodies the right way. Some people don't develop properly and they don't know the difference between right and wrong. Those are all handicaps. God does not get angry at people who do the wrong things if it is only because they are disabled. A severely mentally retarded person shouldn't go to jail for doing something that he didn't know any better about.
A lot of people who don't want to stop sinning and are too lazy to learn self control refuse to admit their own responsibility for their sins. They would rather it be someone else's fault. If they say "Hey, I was born this way" it is the same thing as saying "I can't..." It's not that they can't stop sinning. That is totally silly. They just don't want to stop sinning.
Our flesh itself is just dirt. God made us from dirt.
Dirt is not sinful. Our bodies can "want" things but it's not a sin. We are supposed to have self control.
Just like when we learn not to eat too much candy when we are little. That's self control. If we didn't have it we would die.
Does that help more?
One very important thing to remember is that Jesus was just like us. He had temptations and self control.
He did a better job than we have. God wants us to live just like Jesus. He wants us to always choose the right things, using our self control. Jesus set the example that we are supposed to follow. If we've been doing the wrong things, we have to stop. We can't make excuses for it and blame the way we were born. If we think that we have to sin then we probably will keep sinning. That's not the right way at all.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:14:25 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me."
For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
It comes from a nature. The desires of the human heart.
God cannot be tempted by evil and it says so.
That means when Jesus was tempted He had no evil desires at all in Him........none.
Evil desires did not exist in Him even though He faced the same sort of outward worldy temptations that we might.
Human nature is different.
Humans are tempted by their own inner evil desires when confronted with the temptations of worldy things.
Jesus can see a woman and not lust.
You on the other hand if confronted with such things might find the need to pluck your eye out.
Not that the absence of your eye will help your heart mind you.
I think we can get the picture.
When scripture talks about Jesus being tempted it means by outward sources......not His own heart.
KJB
First of all, the point you are trying to make with that passage in James creates contradictions in the Bible. Jesus was tempted. Period. It says so in plain, unambiguous language in Hebrews.
Secondly, you should consider doing a word study on that James passage. You will find that it reads closer to, "God is inexperienced in things of evil." The point James is making is that we shouldn't say when we are tempted that we are tempted by God, because God doesn't have any experience with evil things. We are tempted by our own lusts.
So Jesus, who came in the likeness of sinful flesh, experienced the same temptations, and there is no reason to believe otherwise.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:32:50 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
If I was born without a sin nature, and can live without sinning . . . what do I need the Holy Spirit for? What do I need Christ's death for? What do I need Christianity for?
Think about what you're saying.
What does Jesus need your sin for?!
You think Christ is empty and useless unless you sinned?!
Who is God? Christ or your sins?
You've got it all backward there.
Sinners need Jesus Christ! Christ doesn't need sinners!
If you have sinned you deserve to go to hell.
That's why Jesus died. For people who deserve hell.
Jesus died because I blew it when I sinned on purpose.God would have much preferred if I had lived perfectly. Jesus would not at all have been offended. He would still be the Lord and savior from physical death and the creator and the author of eternal life. Even for children who have not sinned, they still go through Jesus to know the Father. It doesn't mean that they did anything wrong though.
How much of that applies to you though?
Have you sinned?
Have you loved sin more than obedience?
Do you deserve hell?
Wouldn't Jesus Christ have died for Adam and Eve?
Or does it only matter what happens to you in the imaginary world where you obeyed God?
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:32:56 PM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
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Hello all,
I've been reading through this thread, and I finally have to put forth my two cents.
It has become apparent that those who oppose the doctrine of man's enslavement to sin are not in agreement with us that the Word of God is the sole source of our spiritual/moral instruction. Most of the arguments they make are not even based on the Word, but on the folly of human logic. When they have attempted to instruct us in the Word of God, they don't do anymore than assert that the passage isn't teaching what we believe it says. They don't use any exegetical analysis. Instead, they try to diminish translations. For your information, the doctrine of original sin has been around for ages. It was supported in the early church and carried on through the Reformation to this time (go back and read some of Dr. Martin Luther's arguments). The doctrine has existed before there was an NIV translation. It exists because people of God listen to what Scripture is saying. They don't get caught up with labels. It's like saying the Bible doesn't infer that God is triune in nature because trinity isn't actually in the Bible. Therefore, I can't help but think that it is pointless to even argue this stuff anymore. The arguments from the Word have been put forth and are substantial. Either they'll submit to the Word of God or they won't. I for one pray that they one day realize their folly and submit to the grace and mercy that is found in Christ Jesus, who is God become man now glorified. Only through Him can we cast off this old self and arise a new creation.
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:41:34 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
So Jesus, who came in the likeness of sinful flesh, experienced the same temptations, and there is no reason to believe otherwise.
Thank God for that.
Someone may have already mentioned this but "sinful flesh" in that verse just means sinful man, or sinners. It doesn't mean anything about flesh (made from dirt) being sinful.
(Just in case anyone gets hung up on that phrase.)
If anyone gets hung up on any other verses then just read Ezekiel chapter 18
That chapter is very easy to understand. Once someone understands that, then they can graduate to Paul's epistles.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:57:25 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
the doctrine of original sin has been around for ages.
Yes, here it is. All the way back in Ezekiel Chapter 18 (NIV)
quote:
It was supported in the early church
The early church agreed with Ezekiel and the Lord rather than with sinners who want excuses.
Martin Luther got it wrong.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 7:38:22 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
quote:
If I was born without a sin nature, and can live without sinning . . . what do I need the Holy Spirit for? What do I need Christ's death for? What do I need Christianity for?
Think about what you're saying.
What does Jesus need your sin for?!
You think Christ is empty and useless unless you sinned?!
Who is God? Christ or your sins?
You've got it all backward there.
Sinners need Jesus Christ! Christ doesn't need sinners!
If you have sinned you deserve to go to hell.
That's why Jesus died. For people who deserve hell.
Jesus died because I blew it when I sinned on purpose.God would have much preferred if I had lived perfectly. Jesus would not at all have been offended. He would still be the Lord and savior from physical death and the creator and the author of eternal life. Even for children who have not sinned, they still go through Jesus to know the Father. It doesn't mean that they did anything wrong though.
How much of that applies to you though?
Have you sinned?
Have you loved sin more than obedience?
Do you deserve hell?
Wouldn't Jesus Christ have died for Adam and Eve?
Or does it only matter what happens to you in the imaginary world where you obeyed God?
That really wasn't what I was saying.
But why would Jesus die if we could live a sinless life? There is ONE way to heaven, through him, not TWO ways: through him, and through not sinning, because the latter...is impossible.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 7:49:32 PM
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Limulus
Posts: 209
Joined: 7/13/2008
From: Omaha, Nebraska
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
You have to laugh, I mean the whole of history has been full of barbarity, inhumanity, evil, death and destruction and a person can still say" i see no sin nature here".
Your right, no one sins against their will, because the unregenerate man's will is to sin.
Amen to that.
_____________________________
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
http://myspace.com/jadonchristensen
Prayer Requests: Alcoholism, Depression, Daughter, Singleness
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:02:49 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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Hi Ben,
It's not impossible to stop sinning. In fact you are commanded to stop.
I asked questions like that before also. The reason I responded harshly was to honor the truth and not to pick on you personally.
It is important to remember that God has bigger plans for his Son than the atonement for sins.
We can't think for a second that God's creation would have been pointless unless we messed up.
Try thinking about it this way. It's like a little parable.
A man can take a wife regardless of whether she needed his forgiveness or not.
He wouldn't ask "What is the point of my marrying you if you don't need my forgiveness?"
In our case the bride did need forgiveness. Just not for the way she was born. For her free choices.
Also no one asks forgiveness of a person while they are still doing wrong to them. You wouldn't ask someone to forgive you while you were still vandalizing their property. No. Forgiveness is for those who have stopped doing what they need to be forgiven for and submitted to the one they have wronged. That is true repentance.
Don't think the obedient bride gets around Jesus and sneaks into heaven.
All heaven is is knowing the Father and the Son. There is no heaven without Jesus.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:06:13 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
Hi Ben,
It's not impossible to stop sinning. In fact you are commanded to stop.
Yes.
STOP sinning, because we are sinners.
And we can only begin to stop by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
But according to you, we can stop prior to that.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:11:25 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
You are right, if we can live without sinning, then why do we need the Holy Spirit?
If you stopped sinning do you really think the Holy Spirit would become useless all of a sudden?
Careful not to assume that there's no answer to a question just because you can't think of it off the top of your head.
Did Jesus sin at all? Why did he need the Holy Spirit?
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:13:56 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
Did Jesus sin at all? Why did he need the Holy Spirit?
Jesus also had this slight advantage of, you know, being divine.
Of course the Holy Spirit has more functions than to keep us from sinning. However, if you could go back and defend how we can be sinless WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, I would really like to hear it.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:27:22 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
See, right when I think I have understanding of it, then something else is said....Ben did not say, "You are suppose to continue to sin." He said, if we were capable of "not sinning" then why would we need the Holy Spirit. So, with that being said, whats wrong with that statement?
abby, try just getting these two things down first.
God never tells someone to do something that they can't do.
The proof of this is in 1 Corinthians Chapter 10
quote:
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has taken you except what is human; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able. But with the temptation, He will also make the way out, so that you may be able to bear it. That means that we can ALWAYS do the right thing. Don't let anyone lie to you about that. We may not be like superman and know everything but we NEVER have to do wrong.
And read Ezekiel Chapter 18
If you hang on to those two examples the the rest of it will start to make sense eventually. If you don't understand these things about the way God is then you'll get tossed around by the things people say. God is the Rock. If we grab on to Him we can't be shaken.
Peace,
benjoseph
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 8:31:07 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
God never tells someone to do something that they can't do.
The proof of this is in 1 Corinthians Chapter 10
quote:
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has taken you except what is human; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able. But with the temptation, He will also make the way out, so that you may be able to bear it. That means that we can ALWAYS do the right thing. Don't let anyone lie to you about that. We may not be like superman and know everything but we NEVER have to do wrong.
And read Ezekiel Chapter 18
If you hang on to those two examples the the rest of it will start to make sense eventually. If you don't understand these things about the way God is then you'll get tossed around by the things people say. God is the Rock. If we grab on to Him we can't be shaken.
Peace,
benjoseph
I don't know why you keep avoiding MY question. Let me try this again.
The verse says that GOD Himself will help us to lead us away from sin.
Your claim that man is NOT born with a sin nature means that man, WITHOUT GOD, can live WITHOUT sinning.
Explain.
_____________________________
love.ben
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