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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/29/2008 4:25:59 PM
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Nateyisrael
Posts: 9
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: Chicago
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I think it is important to understand that Christ was not exactly like us. Because we die because of sin (Ro 6:23) and there is no way that, we can live a perfect life like Christ according to Solomon Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. And if we could then Christ is dead in vain, this is what the Jews thought that they could get salvation without Christ, he told them to search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life. But they (the scriptures) are what testify that you must believe in the Messiah as the Son of God or God in the flesh as the Prince of peace unlike any Prince Isra’el (Yisra’el) has ever had and doing greater things than any other prince. This is foundational since Paul says 1Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. And this is what Christ says about those who don’t believe he is God in the flesh:
John 8: 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
_____________________________
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/29/2008 5:33:34 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3751
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Well then maybe a "New Thread" needs to be started.
I quite agree. This is a pretty serious false understanding, and it really ought to be addressed.
Did Jesus remain God in the flesh?
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/29/2008 9:12:02 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Abbygrace,
quote:
It hurts my heart that you dont understand this.
I appreciate your concern but I do think your "hurt" is unnecessary.
quote:
because I can assure you, I can post many verses, showing you, that Jesus was truly God in the flesh. I suspect they are the same ones I used to use when I argued for the same point of view. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/29/2008 9:25:59 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
Joined: 10/20/2008
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I think that it is important to understand that when Adam gained the knowledge of good and evil, then being aware of and knowing evil could then experience the temptation to do evil. Without the knowledge, there was no temptation of desire.
It is this 'knowledge of good and evil' that his ancestors after him inherited, and with it temptation and the desire to fulfil evil desires such as lust, greed and any other wrong desire that is opposite to how God is. Not until we are born of the spirit, which is the gift of God through Jesus Christ, can we even begin to understand what God's nature is really like, or even what pleases God. Only with God's spirit inside us do we begin to know, recognise or understand the things of God.
However, any person that knows God even just a little, through having received His spirit, would know that our God is firstly compassionate, quick to forgive, and moving heaven and earth to save, set free and give life.
As already said, it’s clear that the minute a child can understand, they have the knowledge of both good and bad, right and wrong.
Just today, my ’15 month old baby boy’ showed me that he understood wrong. There is a pot cat that we have that he always tries to hold. I tell him ‘no’, he looks towards me and stops. Then slowly moves his hands towards it again with a really defiant look. I say ‘no’ again. He draws back again. Then reaches out, all the time looking at me. He can’t help himself. He finally grabs it, but starts to cry LOL.
He had learned it was wrong, but couldn’t help himself; the desire was too strong LOL
So yes, children are born with the knowledge of good and evil, and begin to exercise that knowledge as soon as they are able.
But to say that God sends babies and very young children to hell, is to not know the heart of a just and loving God. There is an age of accountability! An age when God is aware that a persons mind is mature, and then He holds them accountable. Even in Jesus’ day, a Jewish boy was not allowed to read from the Torah until he had become mature enough to be considered capable of correctly discerning and dividing the Law and prophets. This is written as one of God’s Laws, and is called a Bar Mitzvah or for a girl a Bat Mitzvah.
The meaning of Bar Mitzvah translated is "Mitzvah" which literally means "commandment" in Hebrew, and "bar or bat” means son or daughter of the 613 "mitzvot," or commandments, of Judaism.
The child assumes adult responsibilities and practices and gains corresponding rights in the faith. A Jewish boy thus becomes a man with mental maturity in Judaism at age 13 and a girl at 12. It’s then that they become responsible. Knowing what I know of my loving God, I would imagine it would be therefore somewhere around 13 years of age that God will recognise our mature mental state and hold us accountable, as it is the Law that states a boy or girl before this age ‘must’ not exercise the right to read or give comment on the law or the prophets or have any legal authority until this time.
I think a sober mind and an honest mind and heart can see God’s love and grace towards children here, and if we can’t, then my God is more compassionate, forgiving and fare than those that believe God casts small children into hell.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 6:52:46 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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Him4all and others, I just wanted to say that I appreciate you answering KJB's ridiculously long post that he responded to me with (directly or indirectly). I had no intention of doing so. Up to this point, I've felt like I was having a conversation with myself. Not a single quality point I made even got considered beyond the effort it took to try and deliberately find a way to argue with it, whether I was right or not.
In short, it wasn't worth my time personally ... though he still needed a scriptural slap for the sake of the innocent reading his incessive opining.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 10:01:53 AM
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Limulus
Posts: 209
Joined: 7/13/2008
From: Omaha, Nebraska
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
Frankly, I am shocked and saddened that this thread is even here. Our basic sin nature is one of the fundamentals of the christian faith..if it were not in our nature to sin, we would not sin, and therefore would not need Christ. If we did not need Christ, it would have been cruel for God to send His one and only Son.
God created Adam and Eve without sin, Adam then made a choice and fell. Therefore, all of Adam's seed would inherit a sin nature. God sent Christ to earth and because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, rather than of man, He was able to be conceived WITHOUT A SIN NATURE, but because of His also being fully human, he like Adam, could make a choice TO sin (often, why He is called the second Adam), however, thankfully for us, unlike Adam, He did not sin...therefore He was able to be a Saviour to those who would believe.
Even when we become believers, while we hopefully turn away from the
"bigger" sins, even if we never tell a lie, we still sin daily in thought, word, and deed, sometimes in ways we don't even realize.
For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God..
I'll be back..I need to go take a shower, shift some laundry, finish some dishes, then find my Bible so I can look up some references.
Agreed.
_____________________________
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
http://myspace.com/jadonchristensen
Prayer Requests: Alcoholism, Depression, Daughter, Singleness
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 11:22:46 AM
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GHitch
Posts: 273
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Your idea of babies fresh out of the womb being fit enough for heaven is not correct.... So our righteous and loving God sends babies to hell? If not how does he get away with allowing sinners in heaven without repentance and faith? You've got a dilemma there Bond!
quote:
The Bible is not clear on every specific detail on that. All we know is that sin was found in him. It does not clarfiy if it came from without, was created from within, or if Satan was created with options, or it was determined to be. You're avoiding the obvious answer.
Here's the question again with a different case:
Q: Before Adam and Eve sinned, they was pure and holy and without sin right? So where did the evil come from?
By your logic they was necessarily "born" with it.
Sorry but you have no way out of this - either they sinned because they chose to of their own free choice, following the enticing of the serpent, or they were forced to rebel because of their very nature.
Your doctrine says no one can sin freely unless they are born sinful. Strange!
quote:
...they were natural born killers!! You've simply taken this thought into your biblical interpretations - interpreting scripture based on post modernism's "evil is in the genes" nonsense. .. quote:
I dont know how you came up with all of that in one breath. Easy, I'm well versed in both scripture, philosophy and the laws of logic and evidence, and it's obvious.
Your doctrine makes all men innocent since they cannot help themselves but do wrong out of no fault of their own. Same as the psychological junk in our current court systems that so often see criminals as "sick" rather than evil. Your doctrine sees man as "sick", no fault of their own, yet still evil. 
quote:
No one will be justified by keeping the law. Why do you keep bringing that up? It's a different subject. We're not talking of justification, we're talking of sinful nature. I already explained why no one will be justified by the law!! Did you read it?
quote:
People will be responsible for breaking it. When held to the law of God everybody will be called guilty. I absolutely agree. But you refuse to admit that no one can responsible for their own nature. No more than you could be responsible for being born blind.
Get it?
Please explain how the born blind is responsible for it? Please explain how one is responsible for the way they are conceived & born?
quote:
I suggest that you love your neighbor as yourself because it is the right thing to do. I might add that you will fail. I myself wish to be under grace because I already know myself. Sure, but that isn't the subject!! You keep conflating 2 different things!
quote:
This hyper Calvinist post-modern influenced doctrine gives criminals all the excuses they need to plead not guilty by reason of genetic defects that prevented them from keeping the law and obliged them by nature to do wrong! quote:
I dont remember pleading not guilty. Again you avoid the point, if you are born obliged to sin you cannot be guilty for that sin. Indeed there would be no sin since "sin is the transgression of the law" and one cannot be born automatically in transgression the law.
The whole point is that you are free to choose - but in all cases need the grace and mercy of God anyway. Even born innocent you still are required to exercise faith!
Please define "sinful nature"? What is it in exact terms - don't just give biblical references because there are none with the words "sinful nature" - none. I know I searched. And I could quote from scripture as well but this is not a contest over who has the most verses or your verses versus mine!! The scripture does not contradict itself!
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 12:13:22 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 273
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
Frankly, I am shocked and saddened that this thread is even here. That's because you're not examining what is being said and thus misunderstand it.
quote:
...if it were not in our nature to sin, we would not sin, So we sin because we have to? And Lucifer and the fallen angels, Adam and Eve etc. all sinned because it was their nature? Good luck finding that in scripture!
quote:
and therefore would not need Christ. So angels, cherubim and seraphim don't need Christ? Adam and Eve did not need Christ before they sinned? Think about that for a moment.
quote:
God created Adam and Eve without sin, Adam then made a choice and fell. Yes.
quote:
Therefore, all of Adam's seed would inherit a sin nature. We inherit their genetics, and all the influences of the flesh and mind that bring us to sin, but we did not inherit their sin.
quote:
God sent Christ to earth and because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, rather than of man, He was able to be conceived WITHOUT A SIN NATURE, Where do you read this in scripture? I read that he was "made like us in ALL points" Heb. 2 not "in ALL point except".
quote:
Even when we become believers, while we hopefully turn away from the "bigger" sins, even if we never tell a lie, we still sin daily in thought, word, and deed, sometimes in ways we don't even realize. Sad but true on the one hand yet scripture teaches the following:
quote:
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jn 2:2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him. - MKJV
---
1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. Quite obviously then something is wrong here. Either your basic doctrine is very off or you are missing key information.
We modern Christians excuse our sinfulness so much it is sickening. And the worst thing is that we use the very scriptures to help us excuse ourselves.
We say idiotic things like, "The devil made me do it"; or worse, "My nature is to sin, I can't help but disobey you Lord! And it's your fault for making me inherit the 'sin nature'."
The whole evil of sin is not it being "natural". God forbid! If sin were natural we would bloom under it. The evil of sin is in it's willful chosen nature.
"Sin is the transgression of the law" 1jn 3:4 - not some intangible entity floating around within us making us rebel. Sin is based in selfishness, the opposite of love. And selfishness is a choice of seeking one's own desires regardless of God and his moral commandments. And "his commandments are not grievous" (1jn 5:3) or hard or impracticable!
Love fulfills the law and love is choosing the highest good of God and others. Love is not a funny emotional experience but a principle of ultimate reason for living - a free choice - yet inflamed and kept alive in us by the Spirit. Rom 5:5 "...because the love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. "
So, sin is intrinsically a rebelliousness against God and the moral royal Law of love.
No one is born unwillingly "evil". We are born innocent - neither good nor evil as it is written, Rom 9:10 quote:
"And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call" . You see? Had done nothing either good or evil!
Again it is written, Isa 7:14 quote:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that you abhor shall be forsaken of both her kings. " There is thus truly an age of enlightenment in all of us. At some point we begin to know to refuse evil and choose the good, but we choose evil - not of necessity but of our own choice. It is probably more complex than that, but that is the gist of it.
We are born with all of mans defects and propensities of flesh and mind, but we do not inherit our parents and ancestors crimes against the Godhead. Nor is anyone ever forced to sin against their will.
Ezek 18 is so clear on this yet so few Christians here believe it!
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 12:31:14 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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You have to laugh, I mean the whole of history has been full of barbarity, inhumanity, evil, death and destruction and a person can still say" i see no sin nature here".
quote:
Nor is anyone ever forced to sin against their will.
Your right, no one sins against their will, because the unregenerate man's will is to sin.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 1:14:59 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Abbygrace,
#105 quote:
If they were the same ones you used...what happened?
Older, wiser...I'd like to think. Others here would say "deceived, dumber". That's their perogitive. Have you not changed any of your doctrinal positions, since you were first 'born again'?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 2:25:39 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3751
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
"Sin is the transgression of the law" 1jn 3:4 - not some intangible entity floating around within us making us rebel. Sin is based in selfishness, the opposite of love. And selfishness is a choice of seeking one's own desires regardless of God and his moral commandments. And "his commandments are not grievous" (1jn 5:3) or hard or impracticable!
Love fulfills the law and love is choosing the highest good of God and others. Love is not a funny emotional experience but a principle of ultimate reason for living - a free choice - yet inflamed and kept alive in us by the Spirit. Rom 5:5 "...because the love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. "
So, sin is intrinsically a rebelliousness against God and the moral royal Law of love.
GHitch, what do you think causes our selfishness?
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 2:28:41 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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Romans 5:12-21 is not talking about this man-made oxymoron called inherited sin.
It is a figurative comparison and contrast between Adam and Christ.
The passage is in disagreement with the oxymoron of inherited sin.
Lot's of people think it shows inherited sin and are wrong.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 2:29:35 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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GHitch,
quote:
KJB: I dont know how you came up with all of that in one breath.
quote:
GHitch: Easy, I'm well versed in both scripture, philosophy and the laws of logic and evidence, and it's obvious.
Oh yes obviously....a hero in your own mind I can tell......LOL! 
Here is a BIGGER breath than yours and it comes from the Word of God;
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Now....all of that should be obvious to those well versed in scripture, philosophy, the laws of logic, evidence, and yada yada.
I know......the NIV is not good enough for you right?
How about the NASB speaking about a spirit, lusts of the flesh, disobedience, desires of the flesh and mind, and were by NATURE children of wrath?
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
You were dead buddy. The law killed you deader than a door knob and you did not even know it.
You probably still dont even know how dead you were. You want to try and prove yourself and stand face to face against the laws of God? You dont stand a chance. On your own you never stood a chance.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
That is how you walked.
You might wonder and ask "How did I walk?"
You walked just as the rest of the world did and the whole world is a prisoner of sin.......sons of disobedience.
By nature the law killed you because by nature the law is good and you are evil.
You are probably still confused about it.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
It clears it up with truth no matter how good people wish to think they were or are.
By nature we were children of wrath.
That is because God commands people to do that which by nature they will NEVER be able to do on their best day.
To break His law in one small point is enough to be dcelared guilty in all of it.
There is simply no lesser sentence than eternal hell and damnation under the righteous wrath of God not matter how you think He should have done otherwise.
The righteous shall live by faith and I can promise it is not by faith in themselves.
quote:
Your doctrine makes all men innocent since they cannot help themselves but do wrong out of no fault of their own.
Let me repeat yet once more.
The laws of God make All MEN GUILTY because no men can keep them.
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace.......
quote:
But you refuse to admit that no one can responsible for their own nature. No more than you could be responsible for being born blind. Get it? Please explain how the born blind is responsible for it? Please explain how one is responsible for the way they are conceived & born?
I already explained. God has bound all men in disobedience. People will be held for the bad things they do even if they cant stop from doing them. They dont pick their nature they just come with it and people are still held for their sin.
No one can see the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again.
The first birth and no matter how good human beings think infants are.....no one can enter unless they are born again.
I would not be surprised if millions and millions of men and women rebuked me over and over again for my stance on infants and the natural birth of flesh.
Millions and millions of men and women always have lower standards on what is acceptable enough to God.
Well you know what......His ways are not our ways.
If He says the first birth is not good enough and something else still needs to be done before a person can enter the kingdom of heaven.....I just flat out agree and I dont care if TRILLIONS of people are against me on that.
What do you expect me to do.........cave in to the feelings and standards of mere men?
KJB
< Message edited by KingJamesBond -- 11/30/2008 2:52:08 PM >
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 2:54:42 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
Status: offline
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inherited sin is the same thing as original sin or "sinful nature".
Sinners go to hell.
Eternal death is the wages of sin.
Sinners are guilty of sinning.
If their nature made them sin then their nature made them guilty.
If their nature made them want or will to sin and their want or will made them choose sin and their sin made them guilty then it's the same as saying their nature made them guilty.
Why do you think people have these crazy ideas of babies going to hell?
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 4:06:09 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Ok, so help me to understand this, Im not going to say that you are wrong, but Im not understanding at all.
What is inherited sin?
What is sinful nature?
And can you "PLEASE" give Scripture for this. Scripture for inherited and sinful nature please?
Hi Abby,
Maybe you misunderstood my post.
I don't believe inherited sin or sin nature are in the scripture at all.
They don't even make sense in the first place.
A lot of people blame their inherited nature for their sins. That's why I put that last post up there to show how illogical it is to claim there is a sin nature or inherited sin. They're pretty much the same idea.
People think there are scriptures that prove sin nature but it's because they don't understand those scriptures and are not willing to consider the scriptures that say there is no sin nature.
Sin nature is an excuse for moral laziness.
Does that help?
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/30/2008 4:16:49 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
quote:
Ok, so help me to understand this, Im not going to say that you are wrong, but Im not understanding at all.
What is inherited sin?
What is sinful nature?
And can you "PLEASE" give Scripture for this. Scripture for inherited and sinful nature please?
Hi Abby,
Maybe you misunderstood my post.
I don't believe inherited sin or sin nature are in the scripture at all.
They don't even make sense in the first place.
A lot of people blame their inherited nature for their sins. That's why I put that last post up there to show how illogical it is to claim there is a sin nature or inherited sin. They're pretty much the same idea.
People think there are scriptures that prove sin nature but it's because they don't understand those scriptures an | | |
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