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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/27/2008 11:33:57 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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Look folks ... Sins are not accidental. We know them before we commit them, and we commit them by choice. We desire to commit them while knowing we should not. Because they are desirable, they are tempting. People aren't "tempted" to do good things. By the very nature of the word, temptation has connotations towards evil things.
Jesus was tempted. He was tempted because he desired to do things against God's will. He was not "tempted" to do righteously. He did righteously in obedience to God, despite his own desires and temptations inherent in the flesh. If you claim that Jesus didn't have the same nature as we, then he wasn't tempted as we are. If he wasn't tempted as we are, then scripture stating otherwise in Hebrews is false. If said scripture is false, then the Bible itself becomes a teetering platform on which to base our beliefs.
It's commendable to defend a doctrine that sounds good, but the fact that Jesus suffered from our malady is a mathematical certainty, else scripture in general is fictitious, seeing that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/27/2008 11:37:28 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nateyisrael
If Christ inherited a sinful nature and then overcame it then you are saying he sinned.
I am saying no such thing. To have a sinful nature is to desire to do sinful things, which is what we are tempted with when we are tempted. Jesus was tempted in all ways, even as we, so he had the same desires. The difference is that he chose good and rejected evil. We didn't.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/27/2008 11:45:11 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chasbeck1
Romans 5: 12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Jesus did not have the sin nature, because He was concieved by the Holy Spirit, and was born of a virgin. The sin nature came through the blood line descended down from the Adamic nature.
I hate to break the news to you, but the only woman that didn't come from Adam's bloodline was Eve (who came from his rib). Mary was a bloodline descendant of Adam. That doctrine is nonsense.
Secondly, death spread to all men because all sinned. Jesus didn't, so he didn't die from it. I believe you are suggesting the original sin concept, which is also unbiblical and a poor doctrine.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 3:39:58 AM
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Nateyisrael
Posts: 9
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
I am saying no such thing. To have a sinful nature is to desire to do sinful things, which is what we are tempted with when we are tempted. Jesus was tempted in all ways, even as we, so he had the same desires. The difference is that he chose good and rejected evil. We didn't.
I didn't quote you I quoted someone else. So show one scripture in the bible where Christ desired something evil. Then after you find that scripture prove that it was sin. People have a desire to place Christ on the same level as themselves. Christ had flesh and blood yes but his flesh and his blood was different from our flesh and blood.
1. There is salvation in his blood (Isa 53:3, John 6:54).
2. We are forgiven from our sins by his blood (1John 1:7).
3. His flesh saw no corruption (Acts 13:37, 2:31).
Paul says all flesh is not the same flesh 1Cor 15:39 then keep reading to see if Christ had a natural body like us. He looked like man Phil 2:7-8. He didn't have a father like us he didn't receive anything from Adam,he is the second Adam created or conceived by the Holy Spirit because no one was begotten like him that is why he is the only begotten Son. We are begotten sons to but not like Christ(James 1:18).Stop trying to put Christ on our level. Because if you think because Christ was tempted he must have a sinful nature something is wrong. So how could someone with a sin nature save someone from sins? If he had a sin nature he was a sinner like you and I. Then he wouldn't be sinless or spotless nor would he be the perfect sacrifice that God testified he was if he had a sinful nature. Adam and Eve were tempted before they sinned. The bible says God is the only one that cannot be tempted with evil.
1Cor 15: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Christ body wasn't from the dust thats why it didn't see corruption if it was from the dust he would have returned to the dust and waited for the resurrection of the dead and received a new body or a spiritual body but after his resurrection he had the same body
Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And paul says 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Now if Christ flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God how could his blood be brought into heaven with the Father
Hebrews 9: 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
_____________________________
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 6:55:50 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Theo-Minor,
quote:
We can't be justified by the law because we've all broken it.
There is no justification for our actions.
Jesus became our justification because he didn't break the law.
by observing the law no one will be justified.
The topic of the thread is claiming that there is no sin nature.
The NIV claimed there is and people made a joke of the translation.
Let me repeat.
No one will be justified by keeping the law. This would include the past, the present, and the future.
It is not because we have broke it.....it is because no human can keep it.
None.....no not one.
All of them will fail and that you can count on.
We dont come from the factory with a good will nature or a neutral will or nature.
quote:
Secondly, God would disagree with you about whether or not we are able to keep the law.
Would He now?
How about if I have faith in Jesus Christ and I do not keep the law?
Most of the time that bothers "do gooders".
no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law
Why oh why is it always so hard for people to just give up on themselves....deny themselves and their ability and just trust in Him?
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
I hear your preaching guy.....really I do. I just dont have any room in my heart for it.
God has already convicted me of my disability and sin.
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
I dont think I was powerful and had the ability.
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Hey...thats me with a capital "P-U" for stink........POWERLESS and UNGODLY.
quote:
I recommend you do a study on the topic.
Ok.
Jesus had and has a Godly nature because He was God in the flesh.
I have a powerless and sinful nature because I am a scoundrel of a man in the flesh of mere man.
quote:
I would recommend further that you be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.
I have been seeing swiftly, I type with one finger, and I have bottled up my wrath for the day I am allowed to give it quickly. May I still get credit on those? LOL
quote:
I assure you, you are mistaken.
Thats what my wife always says. 
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
That is nature.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 10:23:02 AM
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graceamazed
Posts: 4
Joined: 11/26/2008
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I would love to continue this discussion with you guys, but the holiday weekend is going to demand me to be away from the computer most of the time. I would like to ask: Are we not saved by grace? Will anyone be justified before God for having lived without sin? Even babies? Will children be justified before God because they are innocent and without sin and grace is only needed to save us poor sinful adults? Children/babies are saved by the same means that anyone will be saved, the grace of God being shown to them. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and He will harden whom He will harden. Why did God command Pharoah to "let my people go" and then harden his heart so that he would not obey?
Is the promise of the new covenant in Ezekial 36:22-27 that God will gather a people to Himself, that HE will sprinkle us with water and cleanse us, that HE will put a new heart and a new spirit within us, that HE will put His Spirit in us and CAUSE us to walk in His statutes and that we will be careful to observe them. Why must God be so involved, because we are born with a sin nature that would not choose Him, therefore, He must choose us. I praise God for the wonder of His grace and the sovereignty with which He commands all things! I'm sure this answer will not suffice for most of you, but I really won't have time to talk anymore over the weekend. Everyone have a great holiday weekend and maybe we can continue this discussion next week.
God Bless.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 10:33:29 AM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
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1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
In this verse, John was attacking the second claim of the false teachers, that people had no natural tendency toward sin, that they were without sin, and that they were incapable of sinning. This idea is at best self-deception and at worst a bald-faced lie. The false teachers refused to take sin seriously. they wanted to be considered Christians, but they saw no need to confess and repent. In this life we are always capable of sinning, so we should never let down our guard.
There is a sinful nature, the flesh desires it, not the Holy Spirit...Christ tells us when we are saved, when we become a Child of God's, that we have been forgiven for past, present and future sins, but we must continue to fight the good fight of faith, if we mess up, if we sin, we must ask for forgiveness becasue it breaks the barrier that has been placed between you and God, it doesnt mean that you arent a Christian, but it does place a barrier for fellowship between you and Him. But to claim, that when one becomes a Christian, that they no longer sin, the flesh no longer desires the sinful nature is something that I will never believe....there are more verses on this in 1 John, and throughout the entire Bible.....and no, salvaton does not give us a license to sin, we should strive daily to be more like Christ, but He is telling us that we arent perfect, we are going to mess us, but we are covered, but we should always repent, and ask for forgiveness so we can continue to fellowship with God.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 12:57:36 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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Nate
quote:
So show one scripture in the bible where Christ desired something evil. Then after you find that scripture prove that it was sin. No one said that Jesus sinned. Some of this language is a bit confusing, that's all. Christ's body desired sin but he never willed to sin, he always rejected it. In the garden the night he was arrested his body would've much rather taken a nap or drank more wine and sung more songs or just gone to a friend's house far from trouble. His body desired the wrong things but it's not sinful because of that, just amoral, without morality. The body is not supposed to think for itself anyway. That's not what it's for. Since the body can "desire sin" one might call it "sinful" but it's just weak and able to be tempted.
quote:
Christ had flesh and blood yes but his flesh and his blood was different from our flesh and blood. His flesh itself was not different than ours. There is only one human flesh. His sacrifice was acceptable because of his choices not because the way he was born.
AbbyGrace
quote:
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
In this verse, John was attacking the second claim of the false teachers, that people had no natural tendency toward sin, that they were without sin, and that they were incapable of sinning. This idea is at best self-deception and at worst a bald-faced lie. The false teachers refused to take sin seriously. they wanted to be considered Christians, but they saw no need to confess and repent. John was defending against Gnosticism. There's an explanation below. However, that's what I used to think it meant too. But that was only because of the doctrine. If you had never heard of original sin, sin nature, inherited sin, etc. there's no way you'd be able to come up with the doctrine based on this passage. Naturally, without bias, the passage is referring to sin. Sin is not stuff, sin is a choice or an attitude of the heart. Sin is anything that is in disagreement with love. Saying you have sin is the same thing as saying you have sinned. It's descriptive of how your sin 'stays with you' until you confess and have it washed away through repentance and the blood of Jesus. It's like saying 'I have guilt'. It's not because of the way I was born. I don't actually "have" guilt in my DNA. It means I did things that made me guilty. Sin is not a substance. The human body is just made from dirt. Dirt isn't sinful and you can't mix sin in with dirt. Sin is a choice or attitude. Sin only happens when there is consent. Flesh doesn't "happen". Dirt doesn't "happen". Sin happens. It's a totally different kind of word. You can have dirt in a bucket but you can't "have" sin in a bucket. Because sin is not a physical thing, it's not stuff.
quote:
There is a sinful nature, the flesh desires it, not the Holy Spirit It's not your fault if you have temptations. Our flesh desires things that are not lawful but it doesn't know any better because it's just flesh. Jesus' body did not want to be submitted to the Father at all. His body was in complete opposition to the Spirit when he was on the cross. But our bodies are not in charge, we are. If we let our bodies be in charge then we are "in the flesh" or "walking after the flesh" or "carnally minded". That's a life of sin. But to have temptations is totally natural and we have to be master over our bodies. Remember God told Cain that sin lie crouching at the door and Cain had to take charge. It's not pleasant having bodies that can be tempted but this world is full of people doing sinful things and different temptations. It's not sinful to be tempted and God doesn't hold anyone guilty for it.
quote:
There's no inherited sin nature
The Gnostics were the one's who believed that all flesh was sinful. They are the ones John was waning about in 1 John. Since they believed that flesh was sinful in and of itself, they denied that Jesus truly became flesh. John says the Word became flesh.
The Gnostics spawned ideas like:
Jesus was divided into two beings or natures (the son of man and the Son of God)
or Jesus' body was just an apparition or illusion
These ideas deny that the Word became flesh. They deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. They divide Jesus into two parts because they believed that all flesh was evil. There's only one Jesus though. John doesn't say the Word joined with flesh, he says the Word became flesh. That means he became a man himself. Body, spirit/soul, etc. One man. Not a divided man like that other nonsense.
The letter to the Hebrews addresses the same truth when it says that Jesus was tempted in ALL points as we are. That is how he is able to be a sympathetic High Priest to those who choose to take up their cross and follow him.
Augustine had been a semi-gnostic before christianity became the official Roman religion. When Augustine converted to christianity he brought the idea of the flesh being evil with him. This idea of evil flesh or evil 'nature' is the foundation for the doctrine of original sin which then leads to infant baptism. To this day the Roman Catholic church baptizes babies and does not know where they will go when they die without their baptism. From Augustine came the idea of concupiscence. Concupiscence is roughly the same thing as lust. Augustine was a lustful man. Like a horny frat boy who never learned to control himself. Since the state religion of christianity would not allow anyone to deny Jesus having come in the flesh the idea of evil flesh had to find somewhere to hide. From this you get concupiscence. The idea is this: that Adam and Eve had no ability or capacity or desire for physical passion before they sinned. But afterward they covered their bodies in shame and had lust (concupiscence) which they passed on genetically or spiritually to all of their descendants. So a lustful man introduced to christianity the idea that all people are born lustful because of Adam. This is still from Gnosticism because it is blaming the flesh for sin. Saying that evil comes out of our flesh. The only difference now is that they can "get around" that verse in 1 John and in John 1. They can say, yes Jesus came in the flesh. They can even say, yes Jesus came in the same flesh Adam was created with. But really, instead of dividing Christ, now they have divided man. Original flesh and sinful flesh. By doing this they deny that Jesus came in the same flesh that we have. Obviously the idea has stuck around for a long time. But the early church believed in free will, they didn't teach that our bodies make us sin or that it's harder for us to obey than it was for Jesus. If our "fallen" bodies made it harder for us than it was for Jesus then he would not be able to completely sympathize with you in your temptations. But he can! He was tempted in every way just like us because he became human just like we are. There's no sub-human or super-human. Just human. Like Jesus.
Jesus didn't die to atone for the fact that you were born. His atonement pays for the wrong choices you made because God would not be just to allow his law to be violated without consequence. Jesus death shows that God is not joking around about sin. He is serious. His death also provides forgiveness and reconciliation if we stop living sinful lives.
The doctrine of sinful flesh is really just putting the blame on Adam and then on God for making sin nature inheritable in the first place. People who don't want to be accountable for their sins, like Augustine, will not be willing to see that the doctrine doesn't is not christian at all. The reason is that people want to be sinful and christian. One way to justify it is by blaming the flesh like the Gnostics did.
A lot of people have walked around under the name of Jesus and in the appearance of the Gospel. Unfortunately many of them only do it to excuse their sin. It's really like that story about the emporer's new clothes. They think they're wearing something really special but they're totally naked before the truth. They try to sew fig leaves together to cover themselves but the silly man-made doctrines don't have their origin with God.
The exciting thing about understanding that we're not born sinful is that it wipes the graffiti off of our understanding of who God is and what his heart is like. God is not an unfair judge who condemns innocent children. He's not a monster who forced people to pass on a sinful nature to each other all because of one man. He judges with fairness for the choices we've made. A lot of people don't like that God is going to judge them fairly because they've been choosing bad things. But God's children are going to be happy when God judges in fairness. They will say 'Hallelujah!' David said "my heart breaks with longing for your judgment at all times!" Imagine if a human judge wasn't fair. There would be murderers and thieves all over the town instead of being punished. Sometimes that does happen. But God is not a bad judge, he is a good judge. He's not going to judge people for the way they were born. That's prejudice. Jesus didn't die because his Father was prejudice. God is fair and good. God's not going to punish anyone for having temptations. Jesus died so we can have a chance to live forever if we stop choosing sin and trust in him.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 1:43:26 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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benjoseph,
quote:
If anyone has any definitions of a Sin Nature then we can start looking at it.
Please don't post huge writings about it or anything like that.
You would be able to define it in one sentence.
One sentence from the Bible made it pretty clear;
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Your post # 59, even though it was huge and had more than one sentence, still did not prove that people come with any other nature than that which will sin.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 1:58:02 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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KJB,
Do you want to do some question and answer about sin nature?
If you'll let me ask you questions about your belief and are willing to answer them directly then we could have a productive discussion. I'm not here to lecture someone who has already decided I'm wrong. That post was not directed toward you. If you want to do some back and forth than express some willingness to cooperate. If not then you can continue writing posts expressing your disagreement which like I said a ways back would not be very productive for me to spend a lot of time replying to. It's up to you ok?
Ben
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 2:35:50 PM
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Nateyisrael
Posts: 9
Joined: 6/1/2008
From: Chicago
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When I replied I was talking to theo-minor not anything you said benjoseph. But paul says 1Cor 15:40 their are celestial(heavenly) bodies and terrestrial(earthly) bodies then he says Christ was from heaven so he didn't have an earthly bodies. Not to get off the topic I don't believe that anyone can prove that we get a sin nature from Adam I know we receive something from him but I don't think it is a sin nature. Because we all have a choice and God told us to choose life or death. sin id death, life is God or doing God's commands.
_____________________________
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 3:03:58 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2958
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
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Frankly, I am shocked and saddened that this thread is even here. Our basic sin nature is one of the fundamentals of the christian faith..if it were not in our nature to sin, we would not sin, and therefore would not need Christ. If we did not need Christ, it would have been cruel for God to send His one and only Son.
God created Adam and Eve without sin, Adam then made a choice and fell. Therefore, all of Adam's seed would inherit a sin nature. God sent Christ to earth and because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, rather than of man, He was able to be conceived WITHOUT A SIN NATURE, but because of His also being fully human, he like Adam, could make a choice TO sin (often, why He is called the second Adam), however, thankfully for us, unlike Adam, He did not sin...therefore He was able to be a Saviour to those who would believe.
Even when we become believers, while we hopefully turn away from the
"bigger" sins, even if we never tell a lie, we still sin daily in thought, word, and deed, sometimes in ways we don't even realize.
For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God..
I'll be back..I need to go take a shower, shift some laundry, finish some dishes, then find my Bible so I can look up some references.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 3:09:10 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
Frankly, I am shocked and saddened that this thread is even here. Our basic sin nature is one of the fundamentals of the christian faith..if it were not in our nature to sin, we would not sin, and therefore would not need Christ. If we did not need Christ, it would have been cruel for God to send His one and only Son.
God created Adam and Eve without sin, Adam then made a choice and fell. Therefore, all of Adam's seed would inherit a sin nature. God sent Christ to earth and because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, rather than of man, He was able to be conceived WITHOUT A SIN NATURE, but because of His also being fully human, he like Adam, could make a choice TO sin (often, why He is called the second Adam), however, thankfully for us, unlike Adam, He did not sin...therefore He was able to be a Saviour to those who would believe.
Even when we become believers, while we hopefully turn away from the
"bigger" sins, even if we never tell a lie, we still sin daily in thought, word, and deed, sometimes in ways we don't even realize.
For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God..
I'll be back..I need to go take a shower, shift some laundry, finish some dishes, then find my Bible so I can look up some references.
VERY Well Said...Thank You :)
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 3:26:03 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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benjoseph,
quote:
Do you want to do some question and answer about sin nature?
Well, I dunno. Would there be a point to all of it? What exactly are you trying to teach us all......that we are just as grand and good as "Jesus" but we accidently made some wrong choices?
quote:
I'm not here to lecture someone who has already decided I'm wrong.
Well, I have already decided you are wrong so you might as well know that. 
quote:
If you want to do some back and forth than express some willingness to cooperate. If not then you can continue writing posts expressing your disagreement which like I said a ways back would not be very productive for me to spend a lot of time replying to.
You already have the opportunity to respond. You posted things and I have been responding to many of the things you posted. Now, all you have to do is respond again. You can repsond like this;
quote:
Do you want to do some question and answer about sin nature?
If you'll let me ask you questions about your belief and are willing to answer them directly then we could have a productive discussion. I'm not here to lecture someone who has already decided I'm wrong. That post was not directed toward you. If you want to do some back and forth than express some willingness to cooperate. If not then you can continue writing posts expressing your disagreement which like I said a ways back would not be very productive for me to spend a lot of time replying to. It's up to you ok?
Or you can respond with something substantial that takes what I expressed in my last post and show me exactly how it is wrong. Here is the text in NASB and I will use more than one sentence;
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
There is a complete contrast between what is in the flesh and what is in the Spirit and that which is in the flesh is hostile and always will be. It is not able to submit to the laws of God.
It is total human inability and it is based on human nature.
What is in the flesh cannot subject itself to the law of God and as such is in a nature (that which is natural) of hostility towards God.
This is your definition of sin nature;
quote:
Anything that is by birth and not by choice that makes it harder to live perfectly than it was for Jesus.
Did you see the above text that I gave? Let me give another hint. Flesh profits nothing. It is the Spirit that gives life. It looks like all those people in the flesh are not going to be able to accomplish anything substantial towards pleasing God now does it? You can refer to the conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus and you will see that being born again (going back in the womb and coming out) just does not do a darn thing. No matter how many times people could be born that way (natural birth) it never does anything supernatural. Flesh just gives birth to flesh over and over and over and over again in every clinic, every hospital, every home.....anywhere we have natural birth we always have natural flesh and there is no way man can escape it. Its just the way things are.
People by birth (natural birth) cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God. Oh well.......tough!
The Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin......
Prisoners of sin? You think flesh breaks those kind of chains?
I can promise you something. When you SEE the law the last thing you should want to do is try to defend your nature. Run for cover dude and be covered in His blood. Otherwise you will never escape the righteous wrath of God.
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 4:36:15 PM
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conan
Posts: 109
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
Jesus didn't die to atone for the fact that you were born. His atonement pays for the wrong choices you made because God would not be just to allow his law to be violated without consequence. Jesus death shows that God is not joking around about sin. He is serious. His death also provides forgiveness and reconciliation if we stop living sinful lives.
Just as translators evoke thier theology in translation, you are doing the same in your reasoning by inferring that Christ's death was not enough, that we recieve forgiveness and reconciliation is we stop making sinful choices.
To suggest for a second that Christ's death is not enough is an insult to the cross and mockery of grace. It's faith, not good choices that pleases God. However, God given faith is the catalyst for good and right choices.
Give God the glory for the great things He has done, not man for making an ocassional good choice.
The point here is irrelavant. None us have within us the power to concur sin lest we have the Savior. Good choices might make your mother happy, but it's faith in Jesus Christ that pleases God.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 5:10:29 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 273
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Whether God takes infants to heaven or hell I am happy to leave as His own perogative. That's an escape mechanism - avoid the obvious conclusions and then shift the outcome to God without having to think on the consequences of one's beliefs.
quote:
However, they come pre-packaged with the same nature as every other human being. Of course, just as did Christ according to Hebrews 2.
quote:
They dont come as good natured and then become evil natured. They come as neither good natured nor evil natured - they come innocent as I've stated many times now. Innocence, by definition, is neither holy nor evil.
quote:
They come as evil natured creatures even if they are incapable of showing us their thoughts or physical functions. Again, so when Christ tells us "Let the little ones come to me, and do not keep them away: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." actually means let the little evil natured children come to me for such children of wrath is the kingdom of heaven?
"Brothers and sisters, don't think like children. When it comes to evil, be like babies, but think like mature people. " So this means "but in malice be like evil natured children of wrath"? You have not explained that.
quote:
Sin will shine through. Sin never shines.
quote:
No one is "good" as in perfect except for God. Indeed. You've completely missed the point. Where is anyone mentioning perfection? Where is nayone saying we are born perfect?
I suggest you re-read and try to answer the main objections I've put down on the "born evil" doctrine. Ezek. 18 clearly describes this belief and refutes it.
If you're born evil then you cannot help it and thus cannot be responsible for it. Period.
No more than the one born blind is responsible for his blindness, or the one born with no arms is responsible. I'm afraid there is no way out of this for your interpretation of the "sin nature" doctrine.
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"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 5:51:33 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 273
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
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KJV again: you said, quote:
No one will be justified by the law for one reason. No one is able to keep it. No one is able to keep the law?
By analogy : the law says, "you shall not go through the light when it is red."
Can we keep this law? Indeed. If we could not, by nature, keep that law it is absurd to suppose we could be guilty for breaking it.
So why are God's laws any different?
So you're saying that God has given us laws that he knows we cannot keep, then condemns us for not keeping them, then sends us to hell for all eternity for what he knows we could never do? I would say that version of God is monstrous.
Thankfully the scripture says otherwise:
- Scripture everywhere calls upon men to obey, if they do not, they receive condemnation. Implication -> they can obey but choose not to
- Scripture everywhere describes man's sin as being willful, not obligatory by nature
- Deut. 30 states emphatically mans ability to obey the law
What does the law itself say?quote:
Deu 30:11 "For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
Deu 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
Deu 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
Deu 30:17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
Deu 30:18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, Deu 30:20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice...." Nothing could be more clear, in this passage, than that God's law is practicable (not too hard for you) but men are free to disobey if they so choose. And notice that it is this very passage that Paul cites in Rom 10 in reference to the gospel of grace!
Gill says : quote:
or too "wonderful" (q); hard, difficult, and impossible; its doctrines, are not beyond the understanding of an enlightened person; they are all plain to them that understand and find the knowledge of them; and the ordinances of it are not too hard and difficult to be kept; the commandments of Christ are not grievous:
Clarke says, quote:
This commandment - is not hidden - Not too wonderful or difficult for thee to comprehend or perform, as the word hiphleth implies.
1Jn 5 says the same thing - "His commandments are not grievous"! Or as the BBE has it, 1Jn 5:3 quote:
For loving God is keeping his laws: and his laws are not hard. The Greek is barus - as Thayer defines ;
1) heavy in weight
2) metaphorically
2a) burdensome
2b) severe, stern
2c) weighty
2c1) of great moment
2d) violent, cruel, unsparing
In other words man is without excuse in his sinfulness, which he could no be if he were born both guilty and unable to obey.
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As for your texts concerning justification by the law I'm afraid you misinterpret them badly. No one can be justified by a law that has been broken.
How can a transgressor expect justification within the very law he has transgressed, when it is that same law that condemns him?
Ex: You commit a robbery and yet think that you will be guiltless because you did not commit murder?
See? That is the whole point. The law cannot justify what it condemns!
So that is ill use of the Law and clearly your use is not what those texts mean at all. No law can allow justification once it has been broken.
So as men sin they accumulate guilt and thinking that new obedience will somehow remove that guilt is foolish just as the thief who believes if he stops stealing is somehow free from the guilt of past thefts. Get it? It helps clear up the whole subject once understood.
I suggest you make up some impossible law for your family then threaten them of severe punishment for not keeping it. See how far it goes before the obvious injustice of it becomes unbearable.
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/28/2008 5:57:04 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Nateyisrael,
quote:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
If someone can explain what God means by this than one can explain what kind of death he is talking about.
Physical death is what's meant IMO. Others will say spiritual death. For one thing, I say a spirit can never die. For another thing, if Jesus paid the price for sin, it was physical death on the cross.
quote:
But no scripture said that Jesus had a sin nature 1Cor 15:45 said the opposite it says that he is the second man Adam.
I'm going to have to disagree unless you have a scripture to refute this one.
HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.
quote:
If Christ inherited a sinful nature and then overcame it then you are saying he sinned. I am saying no such thing. I'm saying Jesus inherited "sinful flesh" just like us, according to scripture (Rom 8:3). And if the 'sinful nature' is "flesh" then so be it. All I'm saying on this thread is, the term 'sinful nature' isn't a correct translation of scripture and the word "flesh" is.
quote:
Isaiah says Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: You need to read this scripture in context. "Line upon line, pretext upon pretext" thinking was the thinking that was used by the drunken priests and prophets....and people who allow the 'nominal thinkers' to tell them what a scripture is saying based upon the 'inductive method' approach to bible study instead of the 'deductive method'.
ISA 28:7 These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are confused with wine, they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.
The above verse tells you 'in context' just who is being talked about.
The following verse tells you the result of the people who get their understanding 'line upon line ect.'
ISA 28:13 Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them (drunken priest/prophet) precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
quote:
Like the lady said before you must get all the scriptures on a subject and compare them before you come to a conclusion about a topic.
I agree...and think I have. Now I think you should also. 
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 11/28/2008 6:17:39 PM >
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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