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there's no sin nature - 11/25/2008 8:36:12 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
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there's no inherited sin nature
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/25/2008 10:18:59 PM
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MrFribbles
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Now, it's usually considered polite in a discussion forum to actually, you know, back up statements like this. Care to oblige us with evidence?
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You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/25/2008 10:32:51 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
there's no inherited sin nature
Convince me.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/25/2008 10:56:57 PM
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HisFish
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
there's no inherited sin nature
Then you've never had kids.
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The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 12:19:00 AM
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KingJamesBond
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HisFish,
quote:
Then you've never had kids.
LOL.............very good point!
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 12:33:58 AM
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KingJamesBond
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Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
I guess we need to show text on how we got it.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 1:47:01 AM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
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quote:
Now, it's usually considered polite in a discussion forum to actually, you know, back up statements like this. Care to oblige us with evidence? I am willing. It requires some interaction though.
quote:
Convince me. Are you willing?
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Then you've never had kids. Wrong. I even used to be one myself.
quote:
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. NIV? It's "sarx" in greek. "flesh" in english. They translated based on the doctrine instead of the text.
Whoever is willing,
The doctrine of Sin Nature will disprove itself.
Try to define it in one sentence and we'll take a look at it.
< Message edited by benjoseph -- 11/26/2008 2:04:06 AM >
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 7:52:00 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
there's no inherited sin nature
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB95)
In this passage Paul speaks of all being "children of wrath" by nature. He describes this nature in verses 1-3.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 8:08:40 AM
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KingJamesBond
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quote:
NIV? It's "sarx" in greek. "flesh" in english. They translated based on the doctrine instead of the text.
They translated based on the doctrine? Good....LOL If that is what the text is trying to teach I am glad they translated it properly.
NIV? Greek? English? None of them good enough?
Here is text in Tagalog of the same doctrine;
8Sila na nasa makalamang kalikasan ay hindi makapagbibigay lugod sa Diyos.
9Kayo ay wala sa makalamang kalikasan. Kayo ay nasa Espiritu kung ang Espiritu ng Diyos ay tunay na nananahan sa inyo. Ang sinumang walang Espiritu ni Cristo, siya ay hindi sa kaniya.
French?
8 Les hommes livrés à eux-mêmes ne sauraient plaire à Dieu.
9 Vous, au contraire, vous n'êtes pas livrés à vous-mêmes, mais vous dépendez de l'Esprit, puisque l'Esprit de Dieu habite en vous. Si quelqu'un n'a pas l'Esprit du Christ, il ne lui appartient pas.
I guess instead of going through all kinds of languages the easiest thing you could do to prove your point would be to show us "perfect" people. Just show us people that do not sin.
The more I look at the world and the people in it and the things people do........the more I am convinced of a nature.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 11:03:52 AM
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floydette
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I, for one, look forward to a good discussion about this.
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 11:29:35 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
there's no inherited sin nature
I know there isn't. I was teaching a Sunday school class on Romans, a few years back when 'sin nature' kept popping up as people read their NIV's. My RSV never had that term in it so I decided I wanted a greater understanding of the 'sin nature', to teach the class. In that study I discovered exactly what you're saying. I was actually shocked when I did a 'word' search for 'sin nature' and discovered that the only translation, out of the 6 I had, which even had that term in it was the Nearly Inspired Version.  The conclusion I came to, was along the same lines of where I think you may be coming from. We all inherited 'flesh/sarx' which is the only 'sin nature' that truly exists. But here's a problem for many, it was also the same thing that Jesus inherited...and overcame, to Him be the glory.
ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
So, if a 'sinful nature' is what 'causes' one to sin...Jesus should have sinned, but He didn't. Flesh/sinful nature is only part of the picture.
Having said all that...is there more to your point for the thread Benjoseph?
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 12:22:05 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB95)
In this passage Paul speaks of all being "children of wrath" by nature. He describes this nature in verses 1-3.
Blessings,
SH Yes there are many verses that people assume are talking about the doctrine. We could go through them one by one. That wouldn't be the best way in my opinion. Once someone understands that the doctrine itself doesn't make sense then they'll know that they don't understand quite a few passages that they thought they understood. People will want to quote romans 5 and 7 and Psalms etc. Let's just deal with the doctrine itself first. Then afterward if you are convinced we can look at specific verses. If there's a particular verse that you get hung up on like "children of wrath by nature" we can talk about it, but going through all of them will just fill the thread with bible verses which won't get anywhere because I'm saying they don't mean what you think. Hope that makes sense.
quote:
I guess instead of going through all kinds of languages the easiest thing you could do to prove your point would be to show us "perfect" people. Just show us people that do not sin.
The more I look at the world and the people in it and the things people do........the more I am convinced of a nature.
KJB
The perfect person is Jesus but many deny that he came in our flesh. When you see black people listening to hip-hop does that mean they were born that way? You're describing a logical fallacy or mistake. Just because everyone sins doesn't mean they had to sin. That's why God is angry at sinners.
quote:
Tell that to the rotting, stinky, filthy, putrid corpse I'm carrying around ! be patient with your body (it's only temporary) and remember physical corruption is not the same thing as moral corruption. Moral corruption is the real problem. Moral corruption will leave you suffering for eternity.
quote:
I, for one, look forward to a good discussion about this.
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson Good attitude, Unfortunately I might not have much time but it sounds like DR might understand too. Sin Nature obscures the simplicity of why Jesus died. You might see your signature quote in action.
quote:
I know there isn't. I was teaching a Sunday school class on Romans, a few years back when 'sin nature' kept popping up as people read their NIV's. My RSV never had that term in it so I decided I wanted a greater understanding of the 'sin nature', to teach the class. In that study I discovered exactly what you're saying. I was actually shocked when I did a 'word' search for 'sin nature' and discovered that the only translation, out of the 6 I had, which even had that term in it was the Nearly Inspired Version. The conclusion I came to, was along the same lines of where I think you may be coming from. We all inherited 'flesh/sarx' which is the only 'sin nature' that truly exists. But here's a problem for many, it was also the same thing that Jesus inherited...and overcame, to Him be the glory.
ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
So, if a 'sinful nature' is what 'causes' one to sin...Jesus should have sinned, but He didn't. Flesh/sinful nature is only part of the picture.
Having said all that...is there more to your point for the thread Benjoseph?
DR It sounds like you understand DR. Unfortunately a lot of people think they've inherited Adam's guilt or predisposition toward disobedience that Jesus didn't have. It ends up being an excuse for sin for the unrepentant and a curse to the unsteady who are told they can't stop sinning.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 12:41:41 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
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If anyone has any definitions of a Sin Nature then we can start looking at it. Please don't post huge writings about it or anything like that. You would be able to define it in one sentence.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 12:48:16 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
Joined: 3/11/2007
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benjoseph,
quote:
Yes there are many verses that people assume are talking about the doctrine. We could go through them one by one. That wouldn't be the best way in my opinion. Once someone understands that the doctrine itself doesn't make sense then they'll know that they don't understand quite a few passages that they thought they understood. People will want to quote romans 5 and 7 and Psalms etc. Let's just deal with the doctrine itself first. Then afterward if you are convinced we can look at specific verses. If there's a particular verse that you get hung up on like "children of wrath by nature" we can talk about it, but going through all of them will just fill the thread with bible verses which won't get anywhere because I'm saying they don't mean what you think. Hope that makes sense.
In my mind doctrine is based (or should be based) upon Scripture. If you take Scripture out of the discussion all you have is man's ideas.
You have made a claim without any foundation thus far.
We wait for the substance of your view.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 2:21:44 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 81
Joined: 11/25/2008
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quote:
In my mind doctrine is based (or should be based) upon Scripture. If you take Scripture out of the discussion all you have is man's ideas.
You have made a claim without any foundation thus far.
We wait for the substance of your view.
Blessings,
SH I agree with basing doctrine on scripture. Since Sin Nature is not based on scripture it will not even hold up to reason. The wisdom from above is open to reason. False doctrines are not. They fall apart in front of reason. How can I disprove something to you if we don't even have a definition of what it is? That would go back and forth forever! :)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 2:25:48 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benjoseph
quote:
In my mind doctrine is based (or should be based) upon Scripture. If you take Scripture out of the discussion all you have is man's ideas.
You have made a claim without any foundation thus far.
We wait for the substance of your view.
Blessings,
SH I agree with basing doctrine on scripture. Since Sin Nature is not based on scripture it will not even hold up to reason. The wisdom from above is open to reason. False doctrines are not. They fall apart in front of reason. How can I disprove something to you if we don't even have a definition of what it is? That would go back and forth forever! :)
So are you are saying that man is not born in sin; that the natural man does not have a nature that leads him to acts of sin? What exactly is your point?
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 3:15:32 PM
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graceamazed
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benjoseph,
I was interested to see you starting more threads to try and disprove all those who clearly understand from scripture the doctrine of original sin. If anyone else in this forum would be like to follow up on a thread where benjoseph put forth the exact same postulate, then check out sermonindex.net and look for the forum entitled "can you prove sin nature?" Don't be surprised if you see a new member get involved in these discussions with the username "Logic".
I'm all for lively discussion among Christian brothers concerning this or any other topic, but from following your discussion on Sermonindex, I didn't even bothering getting involved due to the apparent arrogance and elitist approach with which you two seemed to conduct yourselves in that post. I hope to see you a little more understanding and openminded in this forum.
Let us all grow in discussion to a truer knowledge of Christ, but let's allow room for the Holy Spirit to work in the minds and hearts of those involved and not take it upon ourselves to destroy everyone else's interpretation of scripture that does not line up with ours.
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 4:08:25 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: graceamazed
benjoseph,
I was interested to see you starting more threads to try and disprove all those who clearly understand from scripture the doctrine of original sin. If anyone else in this forum would be like to follow up on a thread where benjoseph put forth the exact same postulate, then check out sermonindex.net and look for the forum entitled "can you prove sin nature?" Don't be surprised if you see a new member get involved in these discussions with the username "Logic".
I'm all for lively discussion among Christian brothers concerning this or any other topic, but from following your discussion on Sermonindex, I didn't even bothering getting involved due to the apparent arrogance and elitist approach with which you two seemed to conduct yourselves in that post. I hope to see you a little more understanding and openminded in this forum.
Let us all grow in discussion to a truer knowledge of Christ, but let's allow room for the Holy Spirit to work in the minds and hearts of those involved and not take it upon ourselves to destroy everyone else's interpretation of scripture that does not line up with ours.
That's a good first post graceamazed.
This seems to be one of those dead end argumentitive subjects.
So, that's all I have to say about that.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 4:13:09 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
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I would define sin nature as that in our flesh(mind included) that encourages us to sin , ie survival instinct. This is something Yeshua(Jesus) could have without being corrupted as long as He resisted. I do not think this means we inherit a corrupt spirit Our spirit comes from Adonai, our flesh comes from the dust of the earth. In my opinion, we are all born into conflict. As Job tells us, "We are born to trouble as the sparks fly upward." We have the Breath(Spirit) of Adonai and a body corrupted through "natural" selection by our environment.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 4:20:25 PM
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KingJamesBond
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I get this feeling that this will be a short lived thread for me. lol
Nature;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nature
Sin;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin
All we have to do is put the two together and go from there.
Do human beings have a natural inclination to violate the laws or commands of God?
The correct and real answer is a simple and non-disputable yes.
How can we know this?
Well, all kinds of people might want to preach that humans have a neutral nature, or a good nature, but the reality of what we observe along with the Word of God proves them totally wrong.
Every mouth that tries to defend the nature of the human creature will have his mouth silenced. They will be held accountable to God and I am quite sure that God will not call them sinless.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
The first person that can stand in front of God and claim himself to be righteous by his full obedience to the law (and is not silenced) will be the very first person that I will agree has no sin nature.
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
Best of luck to all the neutral hearted people of the world. 
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 4:27:33 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1086
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I would define sin nature as that in our flesh(mind included) that encourages us to sin , ie survival instinct. This is something Yeshua(Jesus) could have without being corrupted as long as He resisted. I do not think this means we inherit a corrupt spirit Our spirit comes from Adonai, our flesh comes from the dust of the earth. In my opinion, we are all born into conflict. As Job tells us, "We are born to trouble as the sparks fly upward." We have the Breath(Spirit) of Adonai and a body corrupted through "natural" selection by our environment.
I think this is a good point blue. However, even our survival instincts are something hard wired into our repetillian brain. We are wired to do the flight or fight for self preservation. You mentioned that we are born into conflict - I can see that. So, how does our survival skills fit in? Perhaps it is the constant need to self-protect that keeps us out of relationship with God, and with each other.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 4:31:16 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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Don't forget, scripture describes all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Rags as soaked with putrefied pus from an unclean leper.
That's not much of a compliment...
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 4:31:21 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1086
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
I get this feeling that this will be a short lived thread for me. lol
Nature;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nature
Sin;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin
All we have to do is put the two together and go from there.
I think there is a bit more to it than this, KJ. The authors of scripture didn't used webster's. We can't just put 2008 meanings to words written in scripture. We may want to look at what the author's meant by what they were saying. I am sure I am "preaching to the choir" and you are well aware of this. I just thought it was important to remind us all. 
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: there's no sin nature - 11/26/2008 4:50:08 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Don't forget, scripture describes all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Rags as soaked with putrefied pus from an unclean leper.
That's not much of a compliment...
Wrong rags. If I am not mistaken the prophet was refering the ones that get used at a certain time every month. This might also support the "natural" state of our sins.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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