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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/26/2008 7:25:26 PM
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Hayseed
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Why should I care about statistics? I'm talking about me and my experience. I'm pretty successful at it. Have been for 20 years. I get to talk to people that most church people would never encounter.
Funny that Jesus' first miracle was making wine at a wedding for guests that may have already had too much wine. The Pharisees accused Him of being a "drunkard" because of all the parties He attended with sinners. Why would He do that? Why would that be recorded in the scriptures? I guess He didn't know the statistics.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/26/2008 7:46:11 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Why should I care about statistics? For the same reason you claim to care about people that others would never encounter. I appreciate your ministry, Hayseed, and I truly hope that God is in it. Just don't lose sight of the fact that unsaved people die every hour because some drunk drivers forget that the possible consequences of social drinking may go far beyond feeling good about reaching the unchurched. Thanks for the discussion and have a Happy Thanksgiving!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/26/2008 8:06:13 PM
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benelchi
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Does anyone truly drink alcohol and not want to get drunk?
Yes, I have never had any desire to get drunk, and in all of my 40+ years I have never yet been drunk.
So why drink?
Because I enjoy the taste of wine on occasion with my meals. And consumption of wine (especially red) appears to have health benefits as well.
Why is it important to you?
It is not that important to me, but I see absolutely no reason to avoid alcohol. It has never been a problem for me, I see no biblical reason to avoid it, and I enjoy it.
Can you go thirty days without any consumption of alcohol?
I have done so many times.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/26/2008 8:46:29 PM
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Hayseed
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But that can be said about every aspect of life. I get where you're coming from. But, I think many times we throw out the baby with the bathwater of things that aren't perfect.
From the original OP through a lot of this whole discussion I have to wonder... do people really believe that ALL scripture is inspired and profitable to us for teaching, or only the safe parts that seem to carry no risk of abuse?
Know what I mean?
Happy Thanksgiving back atcha.
Really, I'm not just trying to argue. I really want to engage a discussion with the "whole" of scripture. I'd love to sit and talk with any of y'all.
I find this stuff fascinating and very educational.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Why should I care about statistics? For the same reason you claim to care about people that others would never encounter. I appreciate your ministry, Hayseed, and I truly hope that God is in it. Just don't lose sight of the fact that unsaved people die every hour because some drunk drivers forget that the possible consequences of social drinking may go far beyond feeling good about reaching the unchurched. Thanks for the discussion and have a Happy Thanksgiving!
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 1:42:40 AM
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saraimay75
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Why should I care about statistics? For the same reason you claim to care about people that others would never encounter. I appreciate your ministry, Hayseed, and I truly hope that God is in it. Just don't lose sight of the fact that unsaved people die every hour because some drunk drivers forget that the possible consequences of social drinking may go far beyond feeling good about reaching the unchurched. Thanks for the discussion and have a Happy Thanksgiving!
There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between having one drink and a drunk driver.
_____________________________
God love admiration . . . I think it annoys God if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it.
~Alice Walker~
http://360.yahoo.com/saraimay75
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 11:44:08 AM
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drmark
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quote:
There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between having one drink and a drunk driver. Actually, saraimay, there is NOT! One 10 ounce glass of wine can produce a blood alcohol content of 0.08 in a petite woman, which is legal intoxication in all 50 states. Some impairment of driving ability begins at 0.02 in many people and at 0.05 there may be impaired judgement, lowered alertness, and reduced coordination. This level of BAC is easily attained in many people after just one drink. If you're really interested in the medical facts, please read Impairment Begins Long before You are Legally Drunk.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 12:10:24 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between having one drink and a drunk driver. Actually, saraimay, there is NOT! One 10 ounce glass of wine can produce a blood alcohol content of 0.08 in a petite woman, which is legal intoxication in all 50 states. Some impairment of driving ability begins at 0.02 in many people and at 0.05 there may be impaired judgement, lowered alertness, and reduced coordination. This level of BAC is easily attained in many people after just one drink. If you're really interested in the medical facts, please read Impairment Begins Long before You are Legally Drunk.
Well, let's put this into reality.
First, 10 ounces could cause someone to be legally drunk only in extremely unusually circumstances i.e. if the wine had an abnormally high alcohol level and the person was abnormally small. While possible, this is a very highly unlikely situation.
Second, a 10 ounces glass of wine is nearly unheard of! I have seen wine glasses that big, but these wine glasses are far from normal. A normal glass of wine is about 3-4 ounces, and even a person of reasonably petite stature will not even begin to feel anything from the alcohol in a single glass of wine. I personally have never consumed 10 ounces of wine in a single sitting in my entire life! I often drink a glass of wine when we have family dinners together and last night's Thanksgiving dinner was no exception; I consumed approximately 3 ounces.
The reality is that it is quite easy to drink wine and not be affected by the alcohol. Some people choose to drink to much, but choosing to do so is seldom an "accident." Presenting the extremes of almost anything can make it appear unwise i.e. when people drive regularly at speeds over 100 MPH they often end up dead or seriously injured, but we don't encourage people to stop driving based on this kind of information.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 12:33:13 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Presenting the extremes of almost anything can make it appear unwise i.e. when people drive regularly at speeds over 100 MPH they often end up dead or seriously injured, but we don't encourage people to stop driving based on this kind of information. You know, this is really becoming quite sad. People who "drive regularly at speeds over 100 MPH" have no more right to drive than those who drive regularly impaired by 4 oz of wine! I really have nothing further to say. My time would be better spent praying that innocent people will be protected in a society where some appear to minimize the effects of mind-altering substances.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 1:36:49 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Well, I had a little wine for Thanksgiving at my daughter's house yesterday. About a teaspoon of one kind, which was almost tolerable in taste and about 1-1/2 tablespoon of another kind that was just plain nasty. Others liked it; I didn't.
But the Bible says to have a little wine. What are we to do with that? Even the L-rd G-d Himself said to make wine and bring it for sacrifices. He also said to make strong drink and bring it daily to sacrifice to Him. He said that when the people sold their tithing goods for money, they should use up all of the tithe money to buy food of whatever their hearts desired, including wine, and bring that to the temple so that all could enjoy the tithe together -- a picnic at the Temple, all that the tithe ever paid for.
If the L-rd has no problem with people who drink wine without become inebriated, who are we to say that either they or He is wrong?
Or is this another one or those things we are to just write off, because
"that was the 'old testament,' and under the Law; we're all under grace now, so it doesn't count, except when it comes to beating children and giving 10% to the church."
Or is it that old thing about "G-d changed His mind later."
Or possibly that one which says, "Jesus is a gentler G-d, so we don't do that stuff."
Or maybe it's "Jesus said, 'It is finished,' so none of that counts, except when it comes to beating children and giving 10% to the church."
Just wondering.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 1:48:59 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
People who "drive regularly at speeds over 100 MPH" have no more right to drive than those who drive regularly impaired by 4 oz of wine!
Clearly your opinion has blinded you to even common sense. Driving over 100 MPH in every state is considered illegal, and no one has a right to do so. No, study shows that drinking 4 ounces of wine impairs anyone, and driving would be completely legal. Yes, the laws of our country actually confirm that people have "more right" to drive after drinking 4 ounces of wine, than one does to drive at speeds over 100 MPH.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 2:00:48 PM
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zamdad
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Benelchi,
Once again I think your post did not communicate what you intended. Drmark is right. People can be impaired before they reach the legal definition of .08. There are many factors. While not a legal matter, a person's mental state can be an impairment to driving. Use of a cell phone can be an impairment to driving.
To me, the general rule is, even if i have one drink I don't drive. Even if another driver hits me, when the cops come on scene and they smell alcohol on my breath, I am suspect of drunken driving. We should all be aware of our mental status before getting behind the wheel.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 2:24:55 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Benelchi,
Once again I think your post did not communicate what you intended. Drmark is right. People can be impaired before they reach the legal definition of .08. There are many factors. While not a legal matter, a person's mental state can be an impairment to driving. Use of a cell phone can be an impairment to driving.
To me, the general rule is, even if i have one drink I don't drive. Even if another driver hits me, when the cops come on scene and they smell alcohol on my breath, I am suspect of drunken driving. We should all be aware of our mental status before getting behind the wheel.
While I agree with you that people can be impaired and still be legally allowed to drive, I don't believe their is any evidence that 4 ounces of wine alone can cause impairment. (can you point to any credible studies that would indicate otherwise?) Yes, it is true that the "smell of alcohol" may cause a police officer to take greater interest in a person's condition, but after an examination the rule of law should prevail. This would be no different than it would be if alcohol was spilled on my clothing. It wouldn't impair my driving, but it SHOULD cause an officer to take a greater interest about my state of imparment should I be involved in a crash.
The main reason I reacted as I did was simply because the Law does give a person a legal right to drive (even at .07) and the Law NEVER gives a person a right to drive at 100 MPH, from a legal perspective there really is a big difference. If I were to get cited for driving with a blood alcohol level of .07, the courts would dismiss the charge, but if I were to get cited for driving in excess of 100 MPH the courts might take away my license. Equating these as EQUIVALENT does not make any sense at all. While I respect your personal choice in this matter, and even see some wisdom in it. I do not believe this is something we should advocate as a requirement for other believers because it is a requirement that goes beyond both the requirements of Scripture and the Laws of our land.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 6:49:36 PM
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drmark
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quote:
(can you point to any credible studies that would indicate otherwise?)
Effects of alcohol on driving performance - note particularly the summary statement on page 2: The behaviors involved in driving a motor vehicle are impaired by alcohol in varying degrees. However, investigators have not found an absolute threshold below which there is no impairment of any kind. Certain skills important for driving are impaired at 0.01 to 0.02 percent BAC or, in other words, at the lowest levels that can be measured reliably.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 7:19:37 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
(can you point to any credible studies that would indicate otherwise?)
Effects of alcohol on driving performance - note particularly the summary statement on page 2: The behaviors involved in driving a motor vehicle are impaired by alcohol in varying degrees. However, investigators have not found an absolute threshold below which there is no impairment of any kind. Certain skills important for driving are impaired at 0.01 to 0.02 percent BAC or, in other words, at the lowest levels that can be measured reliably.
1) The studies cited by the author of this article are almost entirely the studies that he conducted himself. The majority of studies actually contradict his findings. The claim made in this article that impairment may begin at .01 is not supported by any study (not even his own studies).
2) He seems to have a very strong bias for coming to the conclusions he has. In an evaluation of a number of studies on this topic that he was involved in, he excluded the studies that most strongly contradicted his position. Some of the studies he excluded are considered some of the most objective studies on the topic. And even he concludes that the bulk of the evidence shows about a .04% alcohol level is required before there is any measurable impairment when he addressed this topic in a peer reviewed article. Here was his "justification" excluding the data of some studies:
Willumeit, et al., (1984) described their apparatus as a driving simulator, but it is better described as a tracking device. Subjects moved a light signal in a horizontal plane to coincide with the appearance of a light stimulus. The light signal appeared in one of 50 possible blocks along a horizontal scale. Each appearance of the step signal was preceded by one of two arrows to indicate the direction of stimulus appearance. The study treatments were alcohol, two benzodiazepines, and a beta-blocker. The three drugs and a placebo were administered with and without alcohol for eight treatments total. At 0.05 g/dl BAC, there was no difference between alcohol and placebo treatments. Ten mg diazepam also failed to impair in comparison to placebo. Since this analysis focused on the BAC threshold for impairment, studies in which impairment was not found at any BAC were excluded, whether the result was due to instrument insensitivity, flawed methodology or other cause.
A study by McMillen, et al. (1989), which is described as a study of risk taking in a driving simulator, also was dropped from the analysis. The simulator was a video driving game (Sego, Model 100), and dependent measures were number of lane changes, cars passed, and time at maximum speed during a 4.5 minute drive. A mean BAC of 0.07 g/dl had no effect on any response measure. These results are at variance with studies which report alcohol effects on risk taking (Cohen, et al.,1958; Light and Keiper,1969; Fromme,1997). Similar research has reported that alcohol affects speed selection. Since McMillen, et al. (1989) reported no alcohol effects at the tested BACs, this study was not included in the analysis on the assumption that the measures obtained with the video driving game were insensitive to alcohol.
Finally, one other study was not included, although it did report a response measure sensitive to the effects of alcohol. Yesavage and Leirer (1986) examined the aftereffects of alcohol ingestion. Although other studies of aftereffects include data obtained before subjects' BACs dropped to zero, this one did not. Since it only measured performance at zero BAC, the results do not pertain to the issue of BACs at which alcohol impairment first appears.
3) You have still you to provided credible evidence to support the blood alcohol levels you claim can come from a glass of wine.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/28/2008 7:35:26 PM >
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 11/28/2008 7:35:01 PM
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Hayseed
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But, this thread isn't about the morality of drinking and DRIVING. It's about using scripture to make a rule about any drinking.
Start another thread about drinking and driving if that's the subject one wants to talk about. I don't drink and drive. None of my friends at the pubs do either. In fact, they're very responsible and moderate drinkers and they're "unsaved" even.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/1/2008 9:32:35 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference between having one drink and a drunk driver. Actually, saraimay, there is NOT! One 10 ounce glass of wine can produce a blood alcohol content of 0.08 in a petite woman
According to the link you provided, 10 oz of wine == 2 drinks, not one.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/1/2008 11:06:14 AM
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Cloak
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quote:
So why drink? Why is it important to you?
Wine and beer come from the Bible, they are both biblical drinks. Drinking them occasionally will do no harm esp. if there is no history of alcohol abuse in my family.
quote:
Can you go thirty days without any consumption of alcohol? If not why?
Yes I can! The reason why I consume it occasionally is bc it symbolizes the blood of Christ. Ideally, we are supposed to have bread and wine once per week to commemorate the celebration of Christ in our life.
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/1/2008 11:28:09 AM
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Cloak
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If bread symbolizes Christ's body; wine symbolizes His blood.
If you attend a mass in an early church (Orthodox Church), they serve bread and wine to commemorate Christ's presence in our life.
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Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/2/2008 10:59:18 AM
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ChristFollower21
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Ive always been skeptical about drinking (alcohol). I mean I use to don't anymore cause I'm a chrstian. Many say that Jesus drank wine, but there's nowhere in the bible that I know of saying that he drank it, but then again was it really wine then or crushed grapes. I dont know Im confused, but if God said drunkeness are for fools and its wrong then I dont want to even be tempted to get drunk if I drank,so I guess all in all I believe drinking is wrong.
_____________________________
Isaiah 55:8 " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, saith the Lord"
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/2/2008 11:25:09 AM
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themoodyexperience
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I am adopted, so I have no idea about alcoholism in my biological family. I, however, have a beer occasionally, especially when I have headaches; as I understand the blood-thinning qualities of alcohol helps with and it does.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/2/2008 3:10:16 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristFollower21
Ive always been skeptical about drinking (alcohol). I mean I use to don't anymore cause I'm a chrstian. Many say that Jesus drank wine, but there's nowhere in the bible that I know of saying that he drank it, but then again was it really wine then or crushed grapes. I dont know Im confused, but if God said drunkeness are for fools and its wrong then I dont want to even be tempted to get drunk if I drank,so I guess all in all I believe drinking is wrong.
Jesus said, "The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, 'Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!'" (KJV)
(see Matthew 11:19 & Luke 7:34)
Same verse in NASB:
"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
Jesus was saying that He drank wine and was falsely accused by His enemies of being a drunk.
I choose not to drink, but it's not because of my being a Christian or because of what the Bible says about excess.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/2/2008 3:24:38 PM
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Qtman
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There is also Matthew 26:29 and Mark 14:24 where Jesus said He would not drink again from the fruit of the vine until he drank it anew in his Father's Kingdom. The word again indicates he had drunk it before.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/2/2008 9:59:37 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristFollower21
Ive always been skeptical about drinking (alcohol). I mean I use to don't anymore cause I'm a chrstian. Many say that Jesus drank wine, but there's nowhere in the bible that I know of saying that he drank it, but then again was it really wine then or crushed grapes. I dont know Im confused, but if God said drunkeness are for fools and its wrong then I dont want to even be tempted to get drunk if I drank,so I guess all in all I believe drinking is wrong.
If nothing else, he served it. It's a bit of a stretch to think that he served it while thinking it wrong to consume it.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/3/2008 5:32:29 PM
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Kings_Ransom
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I haven't read every comment in this thread, but it's obvious there are many who see nothing wrong with moderation and others who think that abstaining is really the only thing we can do.
Here's my take. Yes, there are a multitude of verses in the Bible condemning acohol abuse or obsession with alcohol. But there are also verses in the Bible condemning gluttony and obsession with food.
But do we go all the way and abstain from food?
"But food is necessary to live! Alcohol isn't!"
Sure, but we eat waaaaaaay more than we need to in order to survive. If Jesus was able to survive in the desert without going hungry, clearly eating a good deal less than we do would still be healthy. BTW, I'm 280 lbs. I'm not proud of that, either.
We also eat food that isn't good for us. Some of us do so far more often than we eat healthy food. Wine and spirits would be better for us than food that some of us eat on a daily basis.
Those who focus in on alcohol seem almost hypocritical to me. Now, those who say "It's just not for me but it's not a sin" I don't have a problem with. No one's forcing you to drink. But I really detest it when people make something a sin that God didn't say was.
I'll also toss my two cents into the ring.
I don't drink to get drunk. I drink because I enjoy the taste of certain wines, ales, lagers and yes, beers. That answers two questions: Does anyone not drink to get drunk and if you're not wanting to get drunk why drink.
As for "Can I go thirty days without alcohol", the answer is that I have alcohol maybe three to five times per year. Worst case. There have been many adult years in which I have not had a drink at all.
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RE: why i don't drink. not you. - 12/4/2008 11:37:21 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But I really detest it when people make something a sin that God didn't say was. I really detest it when people think they know what God has convicted me to be sin!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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