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Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/24/2008 10:44:50 AM
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Cautious_Skeptic
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I've taken the course, attended a couple of retreats and am slated to lead a session at our church in the spring. However, I've been doing some research that makes me question the soundness of their doctrine. Anyone have any experience with Rev. Chris Hayward or Dr.Jack Hayford they wish to share?
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/24/2008 11:14:18 AM
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Kat_D
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I will just quote another post of mine in regards to this subject since Cleansing Stream is part of the Deliverance Movement:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
A Christian cannot have a demon living inside them. If the Holy Spirit dwells there, no demon can live there. The Bible teaches us that light and darkness cannot dwell together. It also teaches that we are new creations in Christ. We can choose to live like one or we can choose to remain in bondage to our old man, old life, and stupid beliefs (like we can have a demon living inside us).
There is a movement active today called the Deliverance Movement. They believe Christians can still have demons and spirits...that Christ didn't do enough on the Cross and receiving Him as Lord and Savior may not change that ...therefore you need this movement/church to set you free. That's how they stay in business...keeping people believing they are still in bondage to these things after they are saved.
17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." -II Corinthians 5
..."For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you* are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." II Corinthians 6
8 "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light." -Ephesians 5
Run...Run fast!!!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/24/2008 11:23:27 AM
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Cautious_Skeptic
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I have to admit, the whole thing about telling spirits that I "hate you with a perfect hate" just doesn't sit well with me.
On the other hand, I did come to recognize that I was carrying a lot of baggage and unforgiveness around with me that I feel I finally admitted to and cast away during the CS process/retreat. I cannot ignore the complete change that has been made in my life since choosing to move forward instead of remaining mired in the past.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/24/2008 11:45:55 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cautious_Skeptic
I have to admit, the whole thing about telling spirits that I "hate you with a perfect hate" just doesn't sit well with me.
On the other hand, I did come to recognize that I was carrying a lot of baggage and unforgiveness around with me that I feel I finally admitted to and cast away during the CS process/retreat. I cannot ignore the complete change that has been made in my life since choosing to move forward instead of remaining mired in the past.
"And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. " II Corinthians 11:14,15
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/24/2008 11:51:20 AM
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earthless
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Kat's posts are spot-on.
There are so many things wrong with their doctrine that I wouldn't even really know where to begin with without a specific topic/question.
Though Kat did touch upon a truth that takes the wind of out of their stance - a born-again believer cannot be inhabited/possessed by the demonic.
They can be influenced and oppressed, but not inhabited.
There are some Christians who believe they not only have the authority to rebuke the devil, but they believe they must be about the business of rebuking him continually.
There is no biblical basis for such a belief. It must be remembered that Satan, unlike God, is not omnipresent. He can only be in one place at a time, and the likelihood of his personally harassing individual Christians is miniscule.
Of course, he has legions of demons who do his bidding, and they are everywhere seeking to destroy believers’ testimonies. It should be noted here that the Christian cannot be possessed by a demon, in the same way people in the Bible are described as being possessed.
Also, the Bible does not give the believer the authority to rebuke Satan, but to resist him.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/25/2008 10:21:49 AM
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Cautious_Skeptic
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Been doing a lot of research this morning on CS. I see Jack Hayford is a follower of Aimee Semple, as is Benny Hinn who makes my skin crawl. I've also seen references to Jan and Paul Crouch/Benny Hinn as attending this church although they aren't mentioned anywhere on the church's webpage.
Came across an article by Chris Hayward where he states that he does not believe Christians can be demon possessed.
http://www.deliveranceministers.org/PDF%20Articles/Deliver_Us_From_Deliverance_Ministry.pdf
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/25/2008 10:22:50 AM
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earthless
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All it takes is one drop of poison to ruin a glass of water.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/25/2008 10:38:47 AM
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Cautious_Skeptic
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Then again, Jesus used the water people washed themselves in to turn into wine.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/25/2008 1:08:31 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cautious_Skeptic
Then again, Jesus used the water people washed themselves in to turn into wine.
That is not an excuse to pay heed to individuals that actually preach a false jesus, a false gospel. People who, according to Scripture, are false prophets due to their failed prophecies.
Free-will is a wonderful thing so you can pay heed to whom you wish. We're just sharing the facts to the questions you have asked.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/25/2008 3:05:49 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cautious_Skeptic
On the other hand, I did come to recognize that I was carrying a lot of baggage and unforgiveness around with me that I feel I finally admitted to and cast away during the CS process/retreat. I cannot ignore the complete change that has been made in my life since choosing to move forward instead of remaining mired in the past.
This is an example of Consequentialism (the ends justify the means) and it's dangerous.
Many claim to have found wisdom and harmony through Buddhism and Hinduism, but their belief is in a false god/religion so their wisdom and harmony are worthless.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/26/2008 9:04:53 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
All it takes is one drop of poison to ruin a glass of water.
Earthless, what is it about the Four Square Church's doctrine that you find as poison or false teaching.
HERE is a link to that doctrine.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/26/2008 9:22:35 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
All it takes is one drop of poison to ruin a glass of water.
Earthless, what is it about the Four Square Church's doctrine that you find as poison or false teaching.
HERE is a link to that doctrine.
Thanks
RC
As many instances show us - a church, a pastor, etc.. can have a doctrinally sound 'statement of faith' and yet teach and adhere to things that are false, heretical or both.
Do we have a one-stop thread for Jack Hayford?
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/26/2008 10:03:55 AM
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Szaftoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
All it takes is one drop of poison to ruin a glass of water.
Earthless, what is it about the Four Square Church's doctrine that you find as poison or false teaching.
HERE is a link to that doctrine.
Thanks
RC
As many instances show us - a church, a pastor, etc.. can have a doctrinally sound 'statement of faith' and yet teach and adhere to things that are false, heretical or both.
Do we have a one-stop thread for Jack Hayford?
There was a thread a couple of years ago and I thought it was quite interesting. He was quoted as saying things he didn't and writing his own Bible which he didn't. It was a lot of "copy and paste" from all sorts of sources.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/26/2008 12:13:07 PM
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jerowhy
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Apparently, falsely speaking evil about others to gain proslytytes for certain brands of Churches is what some do for 'ministry'.
I believe that much of what is confessed by many, is not as much Scripture, as their own viewpoints.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Szaftoo
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
All it takes is one drop of poison to ruin a glass of water.
Earthless, what is it about the Four Square Church's doctrine that you find as poison or false teaching.
HERE is a link to that doctrine.
Thanks
RC
As many instances show us - a church, a pastor, etc.. can have a doctrinally sound 'statement of faith' and yet teach and adhere to things that are false, heretical or both.
Do we have a one-stop thread for Jack Hayford?
There was a thread a couple of years ago and I thought it was quite interesting. He was quoted as saying things he didn't and writing his own Bible which he didn't. It was a lot of "copy and paste" from all sorts of sources.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/26/2008 2:50:46 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
As many instances show us - a church, a pastor, etc.. can have a doctrinally sound 'statement of faith' and yet teach and adhere to things that are false, heretical or both.
Do we have a one-stop thread for Jack Hayford?
I agree, I know nothing of the guy running this CSM ministry or nothing about the ministry.
I do know that Church on the Way, and Hayford seem to be pretty straight. A little too "Seeder Friendly" for my taste, but nowhere near as flaky as Hinn or the other heretics.
And Jack Hayford is no longer Pastor at Church on the Way.
No active thread on Hayford that I can find (but of course as computer challenged as I am that may not be saying much).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/26/2008 3:40:06 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
Apparently, falsely speaking evil about others to gain proslytytes for certain brands of Churches is what some do for 'ministry'.
I believe that much of what is confessed by many, is not as much Scripture, as their own viewpoints.
jerowhy, .prophet, prophetica, .........,
If you're speaking about me, then please show us just one example (of the thousands and thousands of posts I have made) that is one single example of a falsehood I have shared.
Thank you - please correct me, rebuke me, instruct me with the Word.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 11/28/2008 6:06:59 PM
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earthless
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Abby,
Perhaps you can be the one to show us where false speaking has been done about anyone discussed in these threads, please.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 12/2/2008 4:37:30 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It should be noted here that the Christian cannot be possessed by a demon, in the same way people in the Bible are described as being possessed.
This looks like a false statement to me, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. That being said, please shows us how you prove this interesting idea from the Bible.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 12/2/2008 6:13:56 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It should be noted here that the Christian cannot be possessed by a demon, in the same way people in the Bible are described as being possessed.
This looks like a false statement to me, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. That being said, please shows us how you prove this interesting idea from the Bible.
I thought we settled this in the other thread where I answered your questions for more than four pages. You never asked anything else in there and never posted in there again so we all thought your questions were answered.
It now is evident they were not - so please rejoin me in that thread. If my memory serves me correctly, there is a question from me to you still pending in there. And that question simply was: show me one example from Scripture of a born-again believer being inhabited/possessed by demons.
There isn't any.
But your allegation of a false statement merits you showing us that one single example. Also, by your own admission in that thread, you admitted that demons would have nothing to do with seeking salvation nor would they repent of sin, nor could they receive salvation, nor would they be convicted by the Holy Spirit unto salvation.
But I digress.. and I look forward to it.
< Message edited by earthless -- 12/2/2008 6:21:57 PM >
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 12/2/2008 6:23:34 PM
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sledmt
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You never made a statement like this in the other thread. I would have remeber this one. This is a good one.
I just wondering how you come up with this idea???
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 12/2/2008 6:25:40 PM
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sledmt
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To be honest,
I took some time away from the forums. I felt that I was misusing my time at the forums and put it to better use.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 12/2/2008 6:30:01 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
You never made a statement like this in the other thread.
Yes, yes I did. On page 2, post # 44 found HERE
And more than five times I asked you the same question over and over again and you never once answered it.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I would have remeber this one. This is a good one.
Well, we all get older and we all have memory lapses.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I just wondering how you come up with this idea???
From Scripture, God's Word for all of mankind.
Now... please.. let us continue this conversation in that thread and not here as that would be not only disrespectful to the OP but also against the rules and etiquette of the board we are graciously allowed to participate in.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 12/2/2008 6:39:07 PM
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sledmt
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Well, I started looking through you posts, and have not found anything like you post 5 in this thread. You need to go look at your other thread.
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RE: Cleansing Stream Ministries - 12/2/2008 6:40:48 PM
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earthless
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Friend - all the links I just posted are from that thread. Are you saying they are not? Also, that thread was not "mine", I was simply a participate in it.
Again, please - let us continue this conversation in that thread and not here as that would be not only disrespectful to the OP but also against the rules and etiquette of the board we are graciously allowed to participate in.
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