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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/28/2008 8:13:34 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
but a few have claimed that he is in hell. What does that tell you about Christians?
It tells you we know a life lived in unrepentant sin leads to hell, there's no joy in making that statement, it's just fact. But i contend that it isnt the statement that upsets some people, it's who it is made about. Ask people if Hitler, Pol pot, Stalin or even Judas are in hell and they have no problem saying they are, but make the same statement about a beloved cultural hero and they get upset.
< Message edited by HisFish -- 11/28/2008 8:22:38 PM >
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The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/28/2008 8:43:02 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
It tells you we know a life lived in unrepentant sin leads to hell, there's no joy in making that statement, it's just fact.
And of course, we don't know whether he lived a fully unrepentant life. Fortunately, the task of ascertaining whether or not he did is not something that has been handed down to me.
quote:
But i contend that it isnt the statement that upsets some people, it's who it is made about. Ask people if Hitler, Pol pot, Stalin or even Judas are in hell and they have no problem saying they are, but make the same statement about a beloved cultural hero and they get upset.
Of course, we cannot say that any of those people are in hell either. We can only hope that they are not.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/28/2008 9:37:38 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
It tells you we know a life lived in unrepentant sin leads to hell, there's no joy in making that statement, it's just fact.
And of course, we don't know whether he lived a fully unrepentant life. Fortunately, the task of ascertaining whether or not he did is not something that has been handed down to me.
Sorry, a partial repentance doesn't cut it.
quote:
But i contend that it isnt the statement that upsets some people, it's who it is made about. Ask people if Hitler, Pol pot, Stalin or even Judas are in hell and they have no problem saying they are, but make the same statement about a beloved cultural hero and they get upset. quote:
: martyfran
Of course, we cannot say that any of those people are in hell either. We can only hope that they are not.
Sure we can. And as for what those people did i don't "hope" they aren't there.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/28/2008 10:27:38 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 189
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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Over and over again, you hear Christians say, "Well maybe he repented on his death bed"
Sure....its a nice thought, but definitely the exception and not the rule. The longer you lead a sinful life, the more hard your heart becomes, and the harder it is to turn to God. That is a biblical fact proven in the Exodus.
Every time Pharaoh sinned, he went further and further away from God, and then God finally confirmed his hardness for him leading to his destruction.
People who hate God their entire lives and suddenly give a 'genuine' repentence to Christ on their deathbed is as rare as finding a needle in a haystack.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/28/2008 11:10:34 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Sorry, a partial repentance doesn't cut it.
Sure we can. And as for what those people did i don't "hope" they aren't there.
What I meant in the first case, was we don't know whether he lived his full live as unrepentant. If he lived 99.9% as unrepentant, and then repented for the last 0.1%, that is enough repentance for God. Since we have zero information, why would we want to speculate one way or another?
For the second situation, as a Christian, we know that God can forgive everyone's sins. If we as a Christian hope that someone doesn't repent, even if they killed millions, what does that say about us?
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/28/2008 11:12:37 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
People who hate God their entire lives and suddenly give a 'genuine' repentence to Christ on their deathbed is as rare as finding a needle in a haystack.
Can you show me your data on this one? How many at the last second of their lives continue to reject God, and how many as for forgiveness?
If you don't have this data, why would you bother speculating one way or another?
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/29/2008 12:47:06 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
It tells you we know a life lived in unrepentant sin leads to hell, there's no joy in making that statement, it's just fact.
And of course, we don't know whether he lived a fully unrepentant life. Fortunately, the task of ascertaining whether or not he did is not something that has been handed down to me.
quote:
But i contend that it isnt the statement that upsets some people, it's who it is made about. Ask people if Hitler, Pol pot, Stalin or even Judas are in hell and they have no problem saying they are, but make the same statement about a beloved cultural hero and they get upset.
Of course, we cannot say that any of those people are in hell either. We can only hope that they are not.
The other thief is in hell...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/29/2008 12:55:57 AM
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shawke
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For what it's worth, I found THIS article about John Lennon being born again. It appears that he renounced Christ after Yoko's constant harping. So sad.
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It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man. It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 |
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/29/2008 7:16:24 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
The other thief is in hell...
Is he? I don't think we can say one way or another. Based on the information last information we have when he was alive, we know that he rejected Christ and that would certainly be a ticket to hell. However, we don't know what he did after that point. It is possible that he still could have repented, I agree that it is not likely to be probable (at least from our limited capacity to understand the things of God), but with God all things are possible. My point is that we cannot say anything about the eternal destination of anyone. Why people want to speculate whether people like lennon are in either place is beyond me.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/29/2008 1:50:47 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 189
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
People who hate God their entire lives and suddenly give a 'genuine' repentence to Christ on their deathbed is as rare as finding a needle in a haystack.
Can you show me your data on this one? How many at the last second of their lives continue to reject God, and how many as for forgiveness?
If you don't have this data, why would you bother speculating one way or another?
What data are you looking for? Scripture spells it out perfectly, and I gave an example from it as well.
David said himself in the Psalms. "No one seeks after God"
So why would a God hater suddenly turn at the last second of life after rejecting Christ for so many years?
Again....possible, but not probable. When someone like John Lennon spends his life continueously making PUBLIC comments that clearly SHOW a hardened heart, he....like Pharaoh...is almost for sure (but not 100% definitely) past the point of no return.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/29/2008 2:00:50 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
What data are you looking for?
Since you seem to know the population of hell, why don't you tell us how many repent at the last second and how many don't.
quote:
Scripture spells it out perfectly, and I gave an example from it as well.
David said himself in the Psalms. "No one seeks after God"
But God seeks after us, unless you think he stops for a certain time period before we die? Does God give up on coming after us and giving us a chance to repent? Not at anytime before death that I am aware of.
quote:
So why would a God hater suddenly turn at the last second of life after rejecting Christ for so many years?
Since we have not been in that position, we cannot really know what goes through their mind.
quote:
Again....possible, but not probable.
That of course, is my point. If it is possible, and we really don't have any information, what good does it do for us to speculate one way or another? Our task is not to judge the state of anyone's soul.
quote:
When someone like John Lennon spends his life continueously making PUBLIC comments that clearly SHOW a hardened heart, he....like Pharaoh...is almost for sure (but not 100% definitely) past the point of no return.
Is anyone past the point of no return? No. With God, all things are possible. It would be wrong to claim he is in heaven, but it would be equally wrong to claim he is in hell.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/29/2008 8:22:13 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 189
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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You truely don't understand the story of Pharaoh.
He WAS past the point of no return, and God confirmed it.
Lifelong God haters simply don't just decide to repent at the last second. Again.....as common as finding a needle in a haystack.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 11/30/2008 9:16:52 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
Lifelong God haters simply don't just decide to repent at the last second. Again.....as common as finding a needle in a haystack.
One of the thieves at the crucifixion did. How common it is, we cannot say. God has not decided to share his data with us. Like I have said before, I am not sure why people love to make claims about things that they could not possibly know the answer to.
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 12/1/2008 12:33:00 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
This article I find strange regarding the Vatican forgiving John Lennon. BTW I am a fan of the Beatles. It is hard to believe it has been that long since the Black and White album came out.
Vatican
*****If this thread is in the wrong forum please move it. I am not sure which forum would be the correct one for this article.
Why would the vatican worry about forgiving a man who has been dead for almost 30 years?
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RE: John Lennon is forgiven??? - 12/1/2008 6:05:35 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
Why would the vatican worry about forgiving a man who has been dead for almost 30 years?
The answer is, that "the vatican", as we normally think of it, did no such thing. The vatican, by which we mean the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has not done anything in regards to John Lennon.
What did happen, is that a couple of newspaper editors wrote an editorial, in it, they said that they can forgive Lennon for his remark about being more popular than Jesus. They forgave them in the sense that we are commanded to by God. While we may (or may not) be offended by his remark, if we are Christian, we don't have a choice but to forgive him.
The next thing that happened is that the media acted as if this was an official pronouncement or something, rather than a couple of guys trying to make their newspaper more interesting and colorful. The media totally misreported this one, in some cases claiming that the pope forgave lennon. The truth is that the pope had nothing to do with this.
The saddest part about this is how it exposes the relationship between Catholics and other Christians. When this article came out, you had a number of negative comments, such as people claiming that the vatican was arrogant, people claiming that the vatican had no such authority, etc. When the truth comes out where are these people with the apologies?
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