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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/28/2008 5:25:54 PM
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graceingod1
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Well that depends if your forgiving the sinner or the sin.
Either way it can be tough.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/28/2008 7:08:25 PM
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csl7037
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I still contend that God calls us to forgive the way he forgives - completely! Granted we're dealing with human relationships that, for our own good, sometimes are altered forever because of the sins of one or both parties, but you have to forgive to be able to walk away from the sin a whole, free person. Even in the case of child abuse, if you don't forgive (completely), you're just joining the offender in bondage.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/28/2008 7:10:13 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
I still contend that God calls us to forgive the way he forgives - completely! Granted we're dealing with human relationships that, for our own good, sometimes are altered forever because of the sins of one or both parties, but you have to forgive to be able to walk away from the sin a whole, free person. Even in the case of child abuse, if you don't forgive (completely), you're just joining the offender in bondage.
I agree with you, we have to forgive completely, and Im learning, that forgiving isnt always a feeling, its a knowing that you have forgiven that person.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 10:29:31 AM
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Mark328
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You can forgive without ever speaking to them again. Forgiveness is between you and God. Forgiveness frees you from the burden of carrying the anger you have towards that person. Forgiveness never means that the other person was OK and justified in what he/she did, though.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 11:56:59 AM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark328
You can forgive without ever speaking to them again. Forgiveness is between you and God. Forgiveness frees you from the burden of carrying the anger you have towards that person.
I don't think I can go with that.
Mark 11:25.25.And when ye stand praying , forgive , if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26.But if ye do not forgive , neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Colossians 3:13.Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
2 Corinthians 2:5.If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent--not to put it too severely. 6.The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7.Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8.I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9.The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10.If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven--if there was anything to forgive--I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11.in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 12:06:39 PM
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Mark328
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark328
You can forgive without ever speaking to them again. Forgiveness is between you and God. Forgiveness frees you from the burden of carrying the anger you have towards that person. Forgiveness never means that the other person was OK and justified in what he/she did, though.
I understand what you are saying here Mark, but if you were ever around the person again, would you show forgiveness around this person, would your actions show that you had forgiven them, or would you walk out of the room, ignore this person, what would your actions be?
To answer your questions: Yes, I have forgiven those that I have mentioned in my post (go to the in-laws thread and you'll figure it out pretty quickly). I would be civil and cordial towards them, but the relationship would never be the same again. The ones I mention here live over 2000 miles away, and I have not talked to them for several years now, nor do I plan to do so, unless they were to call me. It's not a matter of not forgiving them, but it's a matter of that I don't have anything to say to them, really.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 12:11:47 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark328
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark328
You can forgive without ever speaking to them again. Forgiveness is between you and God. Forgiveness frees you from the burden of carrying the anger you have towards that person. Forgiveness never means that the other person was OK and justified in what he/she did, though.
I understand what you are saying here Mark, but if you were ever around the person again, would you show forgiveness around this person, would your actions show that you had forgiven them, or would you walk out of the room, ignore this person, what would your actions be?
To answer your questions: Yes, I have forgiven those that I have mentioned in my post (go to the in-laws thread and you'll figure it out pretty quickly). I would be civil and cordial towards them, but the relationship would never be the same again. The ones I mention here live over 2000 miles away, and I have not talked to them for several years now, nor do I plan to do so, unless they were to call me. It's not a matter of not forgiving them, but it's a matter of that I don't have anything to say to them, really.
I know what you mean, I have recently went through quiet a change here recently, and it involved me getting hurt pretty bad....I know that I have forgiven, there is no doubt about that, and I havent seen the person since this has happened, but I know i will, and I feel for some reason that God is preparing me, and is going to show me, that I have truly forgiven this person, and I will be able to show this person as well, but the end result will be....God gets the GLORY and Christ will be seen in me :) I think its a walk we have with Christ, and we are all different, but only He can teach us these things.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 12:18:04 PM
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Mark328
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Our walk with God is never an easy one, that's for sure!
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 7:08:51 PM
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Megbeth21
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I heard someone sum it up really well once. . . They pretty much said, forgiveness has more to did with our mouths than with our heads. You might remember what that person did to you for the rest of your life and might always feel the pain from what they did to you, but forgiveness means you stop talking about it.
I thought that was put really well (even if I butchered it a little, lol). I dont remember the guy's name who said it, but its from the "Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage" books/DVDs (which are awesome and hysterical :0) )
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 8:14:38 PM
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delete123
Posts: 991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Megbeth21
You might remember what that person did to you for the rest of your life and might always feel the pain from what they did to you, but forgiveness means you stop talking about it.
That is a misconception of the giver of the sermon. When I was abused, including my sisters, we never talked about it. It wasn't until the Lord broke down those barriers/walls that He has encouraged me to talk about it.
So this person who stated that is incorrect, the Lord has me talk about, but it doesn't mean I haven't forgiven the offenders.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/29/2008 8:50:37 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
quote:
ORIGINAL: Megbeth21
You might remember what that person did to you for the rest of your life and might always feel the pain from what they did to you, but forgiveness means you stop talking about it.
That is a misconception of the giver of the sermon. When I was abused, including my sisters, we never talked about it. It wasn't until the Lord broke down those barriers/walls that He has encouraged me to talk about it.
So this person who stated that is incorrect, the Lord has me talk about, but it doesn't mean I haven't forgiven the offenders.
Given that it's the author of "Laugh your way to a better marriage" (which I've not heard or read myself, never heard of it), I'll assume it was meant in jest. "Don't talk about it" is hardly good advice if they were being serious. I agree, Medbeth.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/30/2008 10:05:34 AM
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delete123
Posts: 991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
Given that it's the author of "Laugh your way to a better marriage" (which I've not heard or read myself, never heard of it), I'll assume it was meant in jest. "Don't talk about it" is hardly good advice if they were being serious. I agree, Medbeth.
CSL~
I must have missed that.  Ok never mind what I said
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/30/2008 3:05:16 PM
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Hislittleone
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quote:
What does forgiveness look like? Is it possible to forgive someone and to say you think to see them would make you ill?
Forgiveness means you don't hold any bitterness or resentment in your heart towards the offender. You release them of the personal debt they owe you.
It does NOT mean:
You must stay in relationship with them.
You don't allow the law to punish them if the offense calls for it. (Standing in the way of the law is a sin in and of itself.)
That you won't feel momentary pain, anger, fear etc. when the offense is brought to mind. (Note the word "momentary".)
That you must do good for them if they are in need. That could be a foolish and dangerous decision. This isn't the case in ALL situations though. But just because someone doesn't help the offender it doesn't mean they haven't forgiven.
That you must forget the offense.
That you must not talk about the offense.
Csl, I don't think that because your friend feels ill around the offender that it means she hasn't forgiven them. It could just mean that the memory of the offense still hurts. Not wanting to be in the same room as the offender doesn't mean she hasn't forgiven. It could just mean that the memory of the offense is too fresh and painful. Also, as others have stated, forgiveness is sometimes a process by which God teaches us lessons we wouldn't learn if we forgave instantly. As long as she isn't speaking harshly and bitterly about that person on a very regular basis then I wouldn't worry about it. Give her time and don't expect her forgiveness to look exactly like yours. It may just take her a little longer and that's okay. Remember to show as much grace towards your friend as you have in forgiving the offender.
quote:
AbbyGrace: But as far as being a friend to someone who has molested my daughter, I dont think He would ask that of me or of anyone else, but to forgive...yes, we have to forgive them. If that person were in need and God directed me to that person, it would be His power flowing through me to do what He is asking, and I will always do as He ask of me.
I agree that we should forgive the person. I don't know of anyone that could do that instantly though. "Oh, you molested my child. I forgive you." It's not as simple as that sometimes. (Not directing that at you AbbyGrace, just trying to make a point.  ) Also, that's not something a person is likely to forget. Ever. That doesn't mean that you haven't forgiven the offender though. It just means that you and your daugther are living with the consequences of that sin for the rest of your lives (the pain, the memory etc.). Only God can forget. We are human and don't physically have that ability. Plus I don't recall any scripture that says we must forgive AND forget. It just instructs us to forgive.
quote:
AbbyGrace: The WILL of GOD will NEVER take US where the GRACE of GOD cannot PROTECT us.
I completely agree. However, our own foolishness can lead us where the grace of God will not protect us (stepping out of His will). I've heard a story of people who believe that if you forgive someone you must show it by embracing them. They allowed a child molester (supposedly repentant and changed) to move into their home where they had children living. They believed it was God's will. That man ended up molesting their child (or children). God's will IMO would have been for them to protect their children. Unfortunately, they were blinded to that fact. (Again, AbbyGrace I'm not directing this at you but am using it to make a point. )
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/30/2008 3:23:22 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
quote:
What does forgiveness look like? Is it possible to forgive someone and to say you think to see them would make you ill?
Forgiveness means you don't hold any bitterness or resentment in your heart towards the offender. You release them of the personal debt they owe you.
It does NOT mean:
You must stay in relationship with them.
You don't allow the law to punish them if the offense calls for it. (Standing in the way of the law is a sin in and of itself.)
That you won't feel momentary pain, anger, fear etc. when the offense is brought to mind. (Note the word "momentary".)
That you must do good for them if they are in need. That could be a foolish and dangerous decision. This isn't the case in ALL situations though. But just because someone doesn't help the offender it doesn't mean they haven't forgiven.
That you must forget the offense.
That you must not talk about the offense.
Csl, I don't think that because your friend feels ill around the offender that it means she hasn't forgiven them. It could just mean that the memory of the offense still hurts. Not wanting to be in the same room as the offender doesn't mean she hasn't forgiven. It could just mean that the memory of the offense is too fresh and painful. Also, as others have stated, forgiveness is sometimes a process by which God teaches us lessons we wouldn't learn if we forgave instantly. As long as she isn't speaking harshly and bitterly about that person on a very regular basis then I wouldn't worry about it. Give her time and don't expect her forgiveness to look exactly like yours. It may just take her a little longer and that's okay. Remember to show as much grace towards your friend as you have in forgiving the offender.
quote:
AbbyGrace: But as far as being a friend to someone who has molested my daughter, I dont think He would ask that of me or of anyone else, but to forgive...yes, we have to forgive them. If that person were in need and God directed me to that person, it would be His power flowing through me to do what He is asking, and I will always do as He ask of me.
I agree that we should forgive the person. I don't know of anyone that could do that instantly though. "Oh, you molested my child. I forgive you." It's not as simple as that sometimes. (Not directing that at you AbbyGrace, just trying to make a point. ) Also, that's not something a person is likely to forget. Ever. That doesn't mean that you haven't forgiven the offender though. It just means that you and your daugther are living with the consequences of that sin for the rest of your lives (the pain, the memory etc.). Only God can forget. We are human and don't physically have that ability. Plus I don't recall any scripture that says we must forgive AND forget. It just instructs us to forgive.
quote:
AbbyGrace: The WILL of GOD will NEVER take US where the GRACE of GOD cannot PROTECT us.
I completely agree. However, our own foolishness can lead us where the grace of God will not protect us (stepping out of His will). I've heard a story of people who believe that if you forgive someone you must show it by embracing them. They allowed a child molester (supposedly repentant and changed) to move into their home where they had children living. They believed it was God's will. That man ended up molesting their child (or children). God's will IMO would have been for them to protect their children. Unfortunately, they were blinded to that fact. (Again, AbbyGrace I'm not directing this at you but am using it to make a point. )
Thank you, and I understand completely with what you are saying here, and cant argue one point, that you have made here.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 11/30/2008 8:38:47 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
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Listen, just because you forgive, does not mean we can forget. I have learned that. I can tell you that we can take all our cares and cast them on Him, for He careth for you. Lay them at the feet of Jesus and leave them there. If at sometime you feel these feelings of unforgiveness or this person pops into your mind, we should, "bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. Just say Lord, I take this thought and I give it to you , and I bring my thoughts in to the obedience of your Word
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 12/2/2008 3:28:49 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
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From: Dothan, AL
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I shared this in another thread today:
My morning devotion today struck a chord with me with the following observation (my paraphrase of it):
Obedience is not the primary point in our Forgiving those that wrong us. The primary point is Trust; trust that God can bring about good from any harm intended for us and trust that He will bring about the best result in His judgment. When we are able to truly forgive, we are exercising the highest Trust in Abba Father.
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 12/3/2008 12:16:00 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1527
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
Really? Is that what Christ teaches? Do you have Scripture for this?
I don't have time to post the referances, but I just thought about the verses that speak about not hanign out with those who call themselves believers and continue in sin or the one in 1 Cor. 5 . I read the book Boundaries and it helped me realize that there are some who just aren't safe to be with and it's ok.
_____________________________
Deb
"You don't need a New Year's Resolution, you need a Resurection! Dr. Tony Evans
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 12/3/2008 3:27:27 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2925
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From: NE Ohio
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God forgives us because the debt has been paid. God's forgiveness was not automatic. His holiness and justice demanded that the sin debt must be paid. Christ paid the debt for us. Our forgiveness was not free and not cheap. And, even though the debt has been paid on our behalf, we must accept that it has been paid for us before we can be in a relationship with God.
Forgiveness is releasing the debt. When someone sins against us they owe us a debt. Just as we owed God a debt for our sins. When we forgive someone they no longer owe us anything to make up for what they have done. That is forgiveness. That is not reconcilliation. Not everyone who God has forgiven is now reconciled to Him. God forgave the sins of the world yet the whole world is not reconciled.
My father sexually abused me and my sisters. I have forgiven him. He no longer owes me anything to repay for what he has done. However, my father and I are not in a relationship with each other. For many years it was unsafe for me to be in a relationship with him because I was not strong enough to stand against his deceptive manipulations. I had to mature in my faith and in the knowledge of God's truth before I could be emotionally safe around my father. Eventually, I did attempt to reconcile our relationship and begin again. It didn't happen. Not because I was unwilling but because my father either will not or cannot accept that forgiveness. He continues to try to manipulate instead of relate. He is also extremely uncomfortable around me because he can't deceive me any more. He can't control me. In addition, my forgiveness did not mean I wouldn't contact children's services when I learned that a female child was living in his home. Which means he has no desire to be in contact with me.
While I will forget the debt I will not forget what he did. It would be irresponsible of me to forget what he did and what he is capable of doing. To do so would have placed my children in danger and I will certainly remember when I know of other children in danger.
God's forgiveness is available to all. The debt is paid. Not all will take advantage of His forgiveness. They refuse to recognize their need for forgiveness. They refuse to repent. They refuse the payment.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: What does it mean to forgive? - 12/5/2008 5:39:06 AM
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Godchick22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
quote:
ORIGINAL: Megbeth21
You might remember what that person did to you for the rest of your life and might always feel the pain from what they did to you, but forgiveness means you stop talking about it.
That is a misconception of the giver of the sermon. When I was abused, including my sisters, we never talked about it. It wasn't until the Lord broke down those barriers/walls that He has encouraged me to talk about it.
So this person who stated that is incorrect, the Lord has me talk about, but it doesn't mean I haven't forgiven the offenders.
I think what Megbeth's comment meant is that you dont keep bringing the issue up as a way of reminding the person what they did or telling others how that person wronged you once upon a time. Talking about it as a way of counselling or healing is totally different because it's for a genuine purpose, but constantly saying things like, 'This is just like that time when you/they...' or 'I still havent forgotten that you/they...' MAY mean that the person hasnt totally forgiven. There are good and bad ways of talking about an issue.
It's kind of like judging someone, there's judgement that comes from the heart, not wanting someone to do something thats outside the will of God. Then there is self righteous judgement, judging someone by our own standards and not taking the time to get to know the person to find out why they may be doing what they're are doing it or if they actually are doing it.
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He knew that asking forgiveness of what he'd done meant that he'd been forgiven, but he also felt that he had to admit to what he'd done, to make reparation. He did so ~ and instead of being taken to court and sent down, he was given the opportunity to pay the money he should have paid. 
