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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 4:05:25 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
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WOW, i am not surprised by this post and I feel a great hurt for the body, I know that some of you were hurt by so-called Christians in a church and that is a big shame. Most of the "back-slid den" Christians that I have counseled are in their present state because of the hurt they received from so called believers. However, religion is a set of rules based on the traditions of men, this is not anything new because we see that even Jesus was faced with this problem. I do know that I had a minister come to my office because I took my 5 year old daughter up in the middle of church and left, ( I hate to say that he was worried my family may leave also as they are large contributors to the church. He asked me why I left, I told him that I was shocked and hurt that a baptist minister(no I am not Baptist but minister in many different churches) would talk bad a bout Billy Graham from the pulpit and tell his congregation that they were not allowed to go to his conference. He said , "well Mr Graham has Lutherans and Methodist and even chatlines working in his crusade". I said "praise God that is great. He said, well what bout the church down the street that teach that you have to be baptized in water to be saved. I said, "brother, are they bringing people in to the body, are they getting saved and turning their lives around, he said" well, yes. I told him,"then it seems to me that we should be helping and not hindering and most he time I run into this attitude its because of pride. I said, Brother, I have raised my daughter to believe that shoulder blades are the beginnings of wings and I will not have her hear a man put down another christian especially from the pulpit. It seems that the scripture found in Mat. 24:12, which is dealing with the end times, is coming to pass. All I do know is that the Word says that ,"love covers a multitude of sins." The enemy wants us to "fall away and he will use anything and anyone he can to accomplish this. I pray that "Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, that you be rooted and grounded in love and may be able to understand with all saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height and to know the love of Christ which passeth all understanding, that you may be filled with all the Fullness of G-d
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 4:05:33 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
as you can see from my post that we're in agreement that there's a difference between unity and uniformity.
Which makes me quite glad. : )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 5:43:34 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DrIjames
WOW, i am not surprised by this post and I feel a great hurt for the body, I know that some of you were hurt by so-called Christians in a church and that is a big shame. Most of the "back-slid den" Christians that I have counseled are in their present state because of the hurt they received from so called believers.
Well I can see that we work with totally different folks, for the vast majority of sinners who call themselves Christians that I work with were never saved in the first place, and then they were told the old OSAS story that keeps unsaved folks unsaved.
Jesus said;
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Please note that these folks who were working iniquity and throughly thought they were saved had NEVER BEEN known by Christ.
Sad, but true and this descrption fits far more folks that anyone wants to admit to.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 8:38:40 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 115
Joined: 6/26/2006
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If I walk away from my church, then I walk away from my church family.
Denominations may be a sin, but they exist and they exist with the permission from God and I assure you that He will work ultimate good out of them.
Mankind is not to be trusted with one unified church with a man at its head. When you rail against denominations, think of the alternative.
We will not have the unity Jesus desires until He comes and establishes it Himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
I propose that people not only get to know the word of God, but get to know His ways. I propose that we walk away from our own opinions and line up with His way of thinking. I propose that His people walk away from their man-made organizations and return to being a part of a family, regardless of their locale. I propose that His people learn to love the truth and change when they realize that they aren't walking in it. In all, I propose that we do exactly what He says; REPENT.
quote:
I propose that people not only get to know the word of God, but get to know His ways. I propose that we walk away from our own opinions and line up with His way of thinking. I propose that His people walk away from their man-made organizations and return to being a part of a family, regardless of their locale. I propose that His people learn to love the truth and change when they realize that they aren't walking in it. In all, I propose that we do exactly what He says; REPENT.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:17:20 PM
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cchsfcaleader
Posts: 87
Joined: 11/15/2008
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so you're saying that God gives us permission to sin because it is in the main stream church
quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
Denominations may be a sin, but they exist and they exist with the permission from God and I assure you that He will work ultimate good out of them.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:25:08 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
Joined: 11/16/2008
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if you read this scripture, Mat. 7 you Will realize that this is the judgement of the nations and their rulers. Wow i wonder if G-d knew that these scripture would be used to judge and condemn and criticize any and all Christians that do not agree with what we believe??? I am not one that thinks that I know every thing, head knowledge is different than heart knowledge but I do have a Doctorates in Theology and in Apologetics. I have spent many years studying hte Word of G-d and still today I find new things to get excited about. He is so wonderful and Loving.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:32:52 PM
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cchsfcaleader
Posts: 87
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the Bible says be like-minded in Christ. If we all did that why would there be different denominations.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:37:54 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 115
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Have so twisted Scripture to think that attending church is a sin? Listen to yourself!
quote:
ORIGINAL: cchsfcaleader
so you're saying that God gives us permission to sin because it is in the main stream church
quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
Denominations may be a sin, but they exist and they exist with the permission from God and I assure you that He will work ultimate good out of them.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:39:44 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 115
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They are not mutually exclusive.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cchsfcaleader
the Bible says be like-minded in Christ. If we all did that why would there be different denominations.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:47:30 PM
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cchsfcaleader
Posts: 87
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i havent said going to church is sin once. i have said the the devision of church by denominations and not being like minded in Christ is sin though.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:49:01 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
Joined: 11/16/2008
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It was not G-ds plan for there to be all these different denominations. The denominations came about becasue of dissention and strif. (I have studied each and every one). It was part of our curriculum. Butthey are here and there will be false teachers and false christians in all the denominatons becasue people are people. But it is so wonderful to find a church where you feel blessed, feed and loved. when you do, please hold on t it. The bible says that there will be a great falling away, and yes, I know all the different translations of what this means, but there is a great falling away and this is what the enemy wants. He wants us dissatisfied and hurt and mad and will use what ever he can. Even some ones word or just a look that he says, "did you see the way that person looked at you?, if I was you I would never come back to this place, so we leave, not knowing that the person had a sight problem and had no glasses and was squiting to see us or some one near us. I know this sound s pressuptious, but it is a fct and this is the wasy the enemy works to keep us devided
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:51:04 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
Joined: 11/16/2008
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sorry, some of the keys stick on this lap top. My spelling isn't that bad Ok LOL G-d bless every one here
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:53:04 PM
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cchsfcaleader
Posts: 87
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so you agree that any division in teh church is sin
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 9:56:16 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
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Well, I do know that G-d is not the author of confusion and yes striff and division works evil not good. I do believe that if this is happening it can be corrected. But it has to be based in love, nothing else. The wrath of man worketh not he righteousness of G-d.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 10:03:15 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 115
Joined: 6/26/2006
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God has allowed denominations to exist and I believe they exist for our protection and for the good of the body of Christ. One day, they will not be, but for now, they may be necessary.
How would you propose that we STOP sinning in this way?
quote:
ORIGINAL: cchsfcaleader
so you're saying that God gives us permission to sin because it is in the main stream church
quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
Denominations may be a sin, but they exist and they exist with the permission from God and I assure you that He will work ultimate good out of them.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 10:03:39 PM
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cchsfcaleader
Posts: 87
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your starting to understand what i am saying. i want the church to be one in Christ. i want people to read this and be inspired to give up the pride in their denomination and boast in their God. i want the Body to work together. the problem in denominations is that God has one denomination to work like a foot and then when the one works he has work like a hand the foot says be a foot instead of following the directions they received from the Mind of Christ. do we tell our foot to grab something and our hands to walk?
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 10:12:27 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 115
Joined: 6/26/2006
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I am with you...
quote:
ORIGINAL: cchsfcaleader
quote:
give up the pride in their denomination and boast in their God.
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/29/2008 10:20:45 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 115
Joined: 6/26/2006
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When you say people need to give up their pride in their denomination...What people or what denomination are you referring to specifically?
Also what denominations, specifically, are not working together as the body of Christ should?
quote:
ORIGINAL: cchsfcaleader
your starting to understand what i am saying. i want the church to be one in Christ. i want people to read this and be inspired to give up the pride in their denomination and boast in their God. i want the Body to work together. the problem in denominations is that God has one denomination to work like a foot and then when the one works he has work like a hand the foot says be a foot instead of following the directions they received from the Mind of Christ. do we tell our foot to grab something and our hands to walk?
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/30/2008 9:00:43 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchsfcaleader
so you agree that any division in teh church is sin
What would be your difinition of division?
Differences in a salvic doctrine?
Disagreement over music?
Not liking the color of the carpet?
Where do you draw the line, or do you draw a line?
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/30/2008 4:17:42 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/30/2008 12:17:34 PM
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HaEmethKawthawb
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My simple addition to this complex conversation would be to ask, when did God ask us to build "churches" buildings at all? As I understand the Scriptures, we're not to make ANY graven images, nothing carved, hewn, broken, bent, shaped or sized of MAN'S hands; He does not live in temples made of man's hands, according to what He says; we're not to make ALTARS nor have steps in our worship centers; nor podeums that set one or more persons above others; we're not to laud some over others, nor are we to decide who can preach, and who can teach, and who should help, and who should serve; I thought these things, were God's decisions to make? I understand, it is the Holy Spirit who decides these things and we are just asked to "gather together" for the sole purpose of EXALTING Him.
As I understand it, the basic problem is, God never TOLD us to build churches (cause that's what the Pagan's of the day were doing and not what Paul did -- early "churches" were in the houses of the WOMAN who were willing to offer up their homes) and we're supposed to go OUT to those who are not saved: out to where THEY are. As I understand it, then, the problem is putting the traditions and practices of MEN over that which God asked us to do.
I don't condemn all "churches", for surely I'm not omniscient, but I happen to live in a county wherein there are 31 "churches" and not one food bank. None of them has a prison ministry, or visits the widows, the shut-ins and the sick; children in our schools haven't got school supplies; when winter comes, most don't have coats and not one "church" has a big-brother, or big-sister program. What we DO have is the highest incidence of teen pregnancy in our State; the highest incidence of HIV and AIDS among our teens...in the State, and the highest level of poverty per capita, even though we ALSO have, the highest income per capita. Is this what God intended?
Just my opinion~
Shalom~
Karen
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/30/2008 12:49:44 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
Joined: 11/16/2008
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Well, G-d Himself has ORDERED the rebuilding of the temple in Israel and it is so close. I have seen the alter of gold and the menorah, and the cups and many things that are ready for this time. I have seen the spotless goats that are ready and this is all prophesied in His Word. Every temple in the bible was ordered by G-d and they were to be the most beautiful and adorned of all buildings.
The different denominations that we see today were told about by Jesus in Luke13:19, He is talking about the kingdom of Heaven here, as we can see in verse 18. He says that the kingdom of heaven, "...it is like
a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and cast into his garden; and it grew and waxed a great tree, and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it. See, there are allot of false doctrines, I will not name any, but they have taken the name, Christianity and use it to disguise their false teachings. So Jesus knew that this was going to take place. Every denomination that we know today are here because of divisions and strife's with in them. Except for the ministry that great people like finny and some of the others started, but then they too, have split later on and the power that use to manifest itself in these ministries have grown cold and or weak. This is not G-ds plan, but He knew. Now does this mean that we should despise these churches, G-d forbid, for if I am doing that then I am adding to the strife and dissension that I am against. I always tell people to find a church tha you know G-d is there. Go where people are set free and saved and delivered and the power of G-d is evident. No the power of G-d is just as powerful today as it was in the new testament church, but if we want the power that the new testament church had then we have to do the things that the new testament church did. You will notice in the book of Acts, that every time a church grew (and there are times it grew by thousands, daily) you will notice that "they were all in one accord, lifting their hands in worship to G-d" Having all things in common. Glory to The Living G-d
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/30/2008 1:01:01 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 115
Joined: 6/26/2006
Status: offline
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So they were of one accord, did they meet together in the same building? They met is houses? Did thousands meet in one house?
No. They divided up and had many small house churches.
I know it sounds radical and cool to rail against the abuses in the church, but in reality there is nothing wrong with a building, a podium, an altar, steps or any of that stuff.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HaEmethKawthawb
My simple addition to this complex conversation would be to ask, when did God ask us to build "churches" buildings at all? As I understand the Scriptures, we're not to make ANY graven images, nothing carved, hewn, broken, bent, shaped or sized of MAN'S hands; He does not live in temples made of man's hands, according to what He says; we're not to make ALTARS nor have steps in our worship centers; nor podeums that set one or more persons above others; we're not to laud some over others, nor are we to decide who can preach, and who can teach, and who should help, and who should serve; I thought these things, were God's decisions to make? I understand, it is the Holy Spirit who decides these things and we are just asked to "gather together" for the sole purpose of EXALTING Him.
As I understand it, the basic problem is, God never TOLD us to build churches (cause that's what the Pagan's of the day were doing and not what Paul did -- early "churches" were in the houses of the WOMAN who were willing to offer up their homes) and we're supposed to go OUT to those who are not saved: out to where THEY are. As I understand it, then, the problem is putting the traditions and practices of MEN over that which God asked us to do.
I don't condemn all "churches", for surely I'm not omniscient, but I happen to live in a county wherein there are 31 "churches" and not one food bank. None of them has a prison ministry, or visits the widows, the shut-ins and the sick; children in our schools haven't got school supplies; when winter comes, most don't have coats and not one "church" has a big-brother, or big-sister program. What we DO have is the highest incidence of teen pregnancy in our State; the highest incidence of HIV and AIDS among our teens...in the State, and the highest level of poverty per capita, even though we ALSO have, the highest income per capita. Is this what God intended?
Just my opinion~
Shalom~
Karen
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/30/2008 1:30:32 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
nor are we to decide who can preach, and who can teach, and who should help, and who should serve
Actually, according to 1 Timothy 3, we are to do just that. : )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 11/30/2008 4:21:07 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DrIjames
Well, G-d Himself has ORDERED the rebuilding of the temple in Israel and it is so close. I have seen the alter of gold and the menorah, and the cups and many things that are ready for this time. I have seen the spotless goats that are ready and this is all prophesied in His Word. Every temple in the bible was ordered by G-d and they were to be the most beautiful and adorned of all buildings.
May we please have some Scripture as to where God ordered the rebuiklding of the temple after it was destroyed in 70 AD?
And pray tell where did you see the thins that you report seeing?
Do you think the new temple you refer to will have the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies, and will there be animal sacrifices?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: DENOMINATIONS ARE SIN - 12/1/2008 4:57:42 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
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The church is an organism, not an institution. We are all baptised into one body by one Spirit. Making excuses for divisions within the church is no different than making excuses for sin. How many times does Paul urge us to be of one mind, to be unified together, and not to let divisions divide us. However, there are differences, and God uses those differences for His glory. We all have different gifts and abilities, because we are all made for a unique purpose. I might have one gift or talent, while someone else has another gift or talent. But both gift or talents can be used to glorify God. Instead of focusing on our differences, which seems to be the trend within the modern church, we should be focusing on giving glory to God with all that we do.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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