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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 9:57:40 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Colson is a convicted felon from the Nixon administration. he wrote a book called Born Again about his spiritual conversion. He is well-known among older fundamentalists and conservatives.
I think you underplayed his life a bit.
After he served his sentence (a result of his guilty plea, which he may have avoided if he fought it) he founded Prison Fellowship, to which he devotes all his book royalties, which are considerable. He has been awarded numerous awards as well as a number of honarary doctorates, and he has written 23 books.
He is in many ways a seminal Christian figure.
Yes, his ministries are examples others would do well to follow. But he is a convicted felon and I don't entirely buy his spin. And I would not consider his economic views to hold any special value.
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Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 11:24:58 AM
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ekserekseez
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quote:
But he is a convicted felon and I don't entirely buy his spin. And I would not consider his economic views to hold any special value.
I agree. And I read some stuff on his group's web site and they seem pretty soft on crime.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 12:14:12 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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quote:
And I would not consider his economic views to hold any special value.
So then, where is he wrong, exactly?
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 12:36:56 PM
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its_GO_time
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But he is a convicted felon
Which in D.C., only means he's a conservative, the liberal felons are in the Congress, and Senate.
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"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 12:41:51 PM
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ekserekseez
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I just don't see where the guy has any particular knowledge of finance that makes his opinion more valuable than anyone else's.
Also, he seems to have a couple of chips on his shoulder that appear to drive his whole agenda. That's a topic for another thread though.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 1:03:13 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
agree. And I read some stuff on his group's web site and they seem pretty soft on crime.
Sorry, but you are wrong. I have much experuence volunteering with PF. They are all about restoring felons to God and family/friends/community. The ministry is all about making people accountable for the acts that led them to prison and making them productive citizens once they are released from prison. Colson's purpose of his Breakpoint column is to individuals develop a Christian worldview.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 1:31:45 PM
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ekserekseez
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I don't know much about restoring felons to god etc. I'm pretty much of the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" school.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 1:41:46 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
I don't know much about restoring felons to god etc. I'm pretty much of the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" school.
Can't build enough prisons to contain them all. There has to be a change b/c for the most part, they will be released.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 1:44:56 PM
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ekserekseez
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Can't build enough prisons to contain them all. There has to be a change b/c for the most part, they will be released.
I think a lot of the problem is we send people to prison for stupid crimes. Nobody should be incarcerated for a non-violent crime. Fine 'em and make them pay.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 1:55:52 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
I think a lot of the problem is we send people to prison for stupid crimes. Nobody should be incarcerated for a non-violent crime. Fine 'em and make them pay.
On this, I agree to a point. There has to be a way to help individuals who are incarcerated for non-violent drug crimes to have intensive probation overseen by faith-related revovery groups. In addition, the individuals need to pay biblically-related resititution to those from they have stolen.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 2:06:37 PM
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ekserekseez
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quote:
On this, I agree to a point. There has to be a way to help individuals who are incarcerated for non-violent drug crimes to have intensive probation overseen by faith-related revovery groups. In addition, the individuals need to pay biblically-related resititution to those from they have stolen.
Well, I don't know about the faith-based and biblically-related stuff. If you're so worried about practicing your religion, you should think about that before you mug someone.
As far as drugs go, they should be legal for adults, with severe mandatory sentences for anyone who provides them to minors or commits crimes under the influence of them. If someone wants to turn themself into a junkie, I am all in favor of letting them as long as they don't steal to support their habit, or commit crimes while stoned.
But I venture beyond the topic of the thread.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 2:19:32 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
quote:
And I would not consider his economic views to hold any special value.
So then, where is he wrong, exactly?
Not saying he's right or wrong. Just that he has no particular experience in economics such that his opinion carries special weight. Kinda like when The Great One said college football needs a playoff.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 2:22:37 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
But I venture beyond the topic of the thread.
But the topic is on how Colson brings a Christian-worldview in addressing the auto companies bail-out.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 2:32:09 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
But I venture beyond the topic of the thread.
But the topic is on how Colson brings a Christian-worldview in addressing the auto companies bail-out.
It's the kind of silly analogy that I would get away with in Sunday School because nobody's listening that hard. It's also the "blame the union labor" part that sticks out.
Using bankruptcy protection isn't too far out and has nothing Biblical to it. What I don't hear in Colson's plan is the dealing with the unemployment that will happen if GM fails completely.
Again, nothing remarkable.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 3:02:50 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
It's the kind of silly analogy that I would get away with in Sunday School because nobody's listening that hard. It's also the "blame the union labor" part that sticks out.
Using bankruptcy protection isn't too far out and has nothing Biblical to it. What I don't hear in Colson's plan is the dealing with the unemployment that will happen if GM fails completely.
Again, nothing remarkable.
The thing I don't understand is how the union gets the lions share of the blame for this. There are two things we know:
1. The union is out for themselves.
2. The management is out for themselves.
Why the first one is horrible and the second gets a free pass is beyond me. Both the union and the management are greedy, so blaming only one side certainly doesn't give a "christian" worldview.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 1:15:18 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
quote:
But he is a convicted felon and I don't entirely buy his spin. And I would not consider his economic views to hold any special value.
I agree. And I read some stuff on his group's web site and they seem pretty soft on crime.
quote:
I don't know much about restoring felons to god etc. I'm pretty much of the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" school.
quote:
I think a lot of the problem is we send people to prison for stupid crimes. Nobody should be incarcerated for a non-violent crime. Fine 'em and make them pay.
I've heard it said that the most expensive commodity we have in this nation is ignorance. Ekserekseez, thank you for that magnificent illustration.
To try and keep this on topic, when the auto companies fail and are no longer making cars, we are going to have hundreds of thousands of auto workers looking for new jobs. The governmenmt, being the savior that it is, will try and intervene by offering job training and such to get these folks working again.
Our prisons/jails are filled with people serving their debt to society. They too need to reintegrate as most will be out and looking for a way to feed themselves and their families. While your take may be to lock em up and throw away the key and that we need to redo our sentencing system to put away only the violent offenders, the fact of the matter is that most folks get released from incarceration at some point.
Colson has ben very active in trying to reform sentencing. As a former probation officer I applaud some of the reforms he is trying to impliment. I also applaud some of the programs he has established such as IFI (Innerchange Freedom Initiative). When God is allowed to work in the hearts and minds of people, he changes thinking which changes behavior.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 2:36:38 AM
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ekserekseez
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quote:
the fact of the matter is that most folks get released from incarceration at some point.
If most folks weren't incarcerated to begin with, this wouldn't be true.
I say lock them up for violent offenders. But what's the deal with jailing someone for not paying child support? How are they paying it while in prison? And if someone's a junkie, as long as they're not stealing or violent, that's their business. If someone wants to destroy themselves that way, who are we to tell them otherwise?
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 3:24:54 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Yes, his ministries are examples others would do well to follow. But he is a convicted felon and I don't entirely buy his spin. And I would not consider his economic views to hold any special value.
Really? You think he is spinning? I have met the man, and I got no indication that he is anything but sincere and humble. If the politicians in Washington were half as willing to take responsibility as Colson was in his case, then Washington would be a den of saints instead of a den of another sort.
And I think Colson has enough knowledge about the way things work in Washington both as an insider and as an outside observer to have great insight into whether we should be furthering the mismanagement of these car companies.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 3:44:56 AM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
I don't know much about restoring felons to god etc. I'm pretty much of the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" school.
Look around you. America already locks up *five* times as many of its citizens (per capita) than any other democratic nation on the planet -- *any* other democratic nation. (Before you ask, if you remove illegal immigrants from the equation, you get to four times more (per capita) than any other democracy on the planet, which isn't much better).
Yet, America's drug takers are no less in number than in other countries, murder rates and violent crime rates are still sky high compared to these other democratic countries. How long will it take before the Americans finally realize that our judicial system, with it's lock 'em up and throw away the key attitude, is just one massive failure.
We are supposed to be living in the greatest nation in the world, yet we have to lock up our citizens at a greater rate than fascist Russia and communist China. Something is drastically wrong with this picture. Are Americans really four times as evil, four times as sinful as people who live in, say, post-Christian western Europe? Really?
What's worse is that the burden of all these prisoners falls on us, the taxpayer. America doesn't need to be a welfare state because it's an incarceration state instead, and that costs us plenty.
This is not a partisan problem. Democratic politicians are just as much to blame for this as Republican politicians. Nobody wants to debate reforming the judicial system, not even Obama, because nobody wants to be accused of being soft of crime. Ever increasing sentences and abolishing parole simply haven't worked. The crime rate may drop for a few years, but it's at the expense on an exploding prison population that shows no sign of slowing down. In the end, those people will be out on the streets again, and we will be back where we started.
Using prison only for punishment and retribution is not enough. Reform must also be a top priority, and I don't mean just allowing private organizations like Colson's access to the prisoners. Reforming prisoners should always be the state's top priority (after security, of course). If the Northern Irish can let hundreds of violent murderers back on the streets in the name of reconciliation and peace then Americans can be persuaded accept that not every offender needs to spend half their lives languishing in jail for crimes they committed a decade or more ago.
Of course, you don't release dangerous, unrepentant, violent offenders on a whim, but neither should there need to be so many millions of Americans behind bars. It shows that there is something wrong in America that needs to be corrected, but nobody is willing to step up to the plate and start swinging. People like Chuck Colson can only do so much on their own.
And that's a crying shame.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 7:12:39 AM
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ekserekseez
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quote:
Of course, you don't release dangerous, unrepentant, violent offenders on a whim, but neither should there need to be so many millions of Americans behind bars. It shows that there is something wrong in America that needs to be corrected, but nobody is willing to step up to the plate and start swinging. People like Chuck Colson can only do so much on their own.
Read the rest of my posts. I don't think most crimes deserve incarceration.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 9:54:00 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, his ministries are examples others would do well to follow. But he is a convicted felon and I don't entirely buy his spin. And I would not consider his economic views to hold any special value.
Really? You think he is spinning? I have met the man, and I got no indication that he is anything but sincere and humble. If the politicians in Washington were half as willing to take responsibility as Colson was in his case, then Washington would be a den of saints instead of a den of another sort.
And I think Colson has enough knowledge about the way things work in Washington both as an insider and as an outside observer to have great insight into whether we should be furthering the mismanagement of these car companies.
For clarification, I was referring to his spin about the prospect of being found not guilty had he gone to trial. Not that he doesn't believe it himself. So denial may be a better term than spin.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 11:09:23 AM
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jbow
Posts: 629
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From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
It's the kind of silly analogy that I would get away with in Sunday School because nobody's listening that hard. It's also the "blame the union labor" part that sticks out.
Using bankruptcy protection isn't too far out and has nothing Biblical to it. What I don't hear in Colson's plan is the dealing with the unemployment that will happen if GM fails completely.
Again, nothing remarkable.
The thing I don't understand is how the union gets the lions share of the blame for this. There are two things we know:
1. The union is out for themselves.
2. The management is out for themselves.
Why the first one is horrible and the second gets a free pass is beyond me. Both the union and the management are greedy, so blaming only one side certainly doesn't give a "christian" worldview.
I think it is because of the comparison we have between the "big three" Detroit automakers and the union involvement there, (and the management for certain)... and the automakers in southern states. One is making a profit and the other is going in a hole and asking you and I to bail them out while the UAW is saying that they will not give any more concessions.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 11:15:04 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
For clarification, I was referring to his spin about the prospect of being found not guilty had he gone to trial. Not that he doesn't believe it himself. So denial may be a better term than spin.
Actually I think it's a matter of public record that Special Prosecutor Jaworski had offered to plea him down to a misdemeanor with the opportunity for no jail time, and instead he felt, as a matter of personal integrity, that he needed to plead guilty to obstruction of justice, a much more serious charge, and for which he recieved the maximum jail time. I really don't know of anyone else (especially in regard to charges in Washington politics) who has ever done anything like this.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 11:27:54 AM
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jbow
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From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
I don't know much about restoring felons to god etc. I'm pretty much of the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" school.
Well the way things are going we will probably run out of money soon and won't be able to afford to lock people up... bullets are cheap. I'm just afraid that soon they might be used on ordinary citizens. Obama thinks of himself as another Lincoln... so you never know.
Of course... I am not serious about just shooting prisoners.
Wait... what am I saying? We have already run out of money... no problem, we'll print more... yea!!!
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/26/2008 1:58:09 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
If most folks weren't incarcerated to begin with, this wouldn't be true.
I say lock them up for violent offenders. But what's the deal with jailing someone for not paying child support? How are they paying it while in prison? And if someone's a junkie, as long as they're not stealing or violent, that's their business. If someone wants to destroy themselves that way, who are we to tell them otherwise?
As I said in my previous post, Colson is very active in sentencing reform. Since this thread has to do with Colson, I'll speak to how he and PF Ministries are working to change the culture, not just prison culture. As has been pointed out, the US already locks up more folks than any other industrialized nation. We have more people than ever either incarcerated or on probation/parole.
I have worked in corrections for 16 years in two states, both behind the walls and in the community. I have written thousands of pre-sentence reports making sentencing recommendations to the court. No one wants to lock up the non-violent offenders. Yet, the non-violent offender label is decieving. While offender A may be getting sentenced for simple drug possession which would make him a non-violent offender, his criminal history includes several assaults, a sex crime, and several more drug crimes. Is he a non-violent offender?
Getting tough on crime hasn't worked. Several states have imposed three strikes laws. All this has done is create a need for more bed space in prisons. One of the other aspects Colson has been active in is changing how we, the church, view the world. He is absolutely right in identifying that we all have a responsibility in solving the problems of crime. The only way to get offenders to reintigrate and not recidivate is for them to become connected with pro-social people in the community, people who will mentor and disciple someone on the path of new thinking. Much of the problem in this nation stems from your worldview, ekserekseez, with the lock em up and throw away the key, let someone else fix em.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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