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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 9:53:31 PM
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relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
My apologies No problem at all. 
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 10:00:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Did I say there shouldn't be any laws? Obviously we have laws. The only reason abortion is a debate is because it isn't a law.
Why should it be a choice? For the same reason as you deciding who to marry or what clothes to wear or what time to go to bed. Because it is about you and your own decisions for YOUR life.
We cross the line when we decide what is right for the population as a whole. We don't take into account extenuating circumstances and invariably someone gets over looked.
Some people don;t think it's a right thing to do, I understand that and fully agree, but I don't think it is right for others to decide major decisions for people either. This is a personal matter that is nobody else's business.
When I choose to marry, or change clothes, or go to bed, no one dies; when someone chooses to abort, a human being dies - that is where it stops being 'personal', and that is where choice should end.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 6:17:12 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
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quote:
When I choose to marry, or change clothes, or go to bed, no one dies; when someone chooses to abort, a human being dies - that is where it stops being 'personal', and that is where choice should end
The argument for abortion is that the innocent are dying. OK, let's look at the double standard. Genocide kills millions of innocents. We don't see people taking such hard lines against that. We don't see people taking hard lines against any other thing that kills the "innocents".
The problem with it becoming a law, is the law will give another human being, the right to make a decision about a woman's body. It will then open the door for the state to come in and make other decisions about people's bodies.
Eventually, the state is going to mandate a RFID chip "must" be injected under the skin, all in the name of the law. You know what legal precedent will usher that in? Taking away the woman's right to choose. For the state to decide they know what is best for the individual. We already see laws that have gone into effect that support the government' rights to decide for the people.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 8:51:59 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
The argument for abortion is that the innocent are dying. OK, let's look at the double standard. Genocide kills millions of innocents. We don't see people taking such hard lines against that. We don't see people taking hard lines against any other thing that kills the "innocents".
Well that is pretty poor logic; are you are saying we should legally sanction genocide, as we have abortion? That the Supreme Court and the US government should legalize genocide as it did abortion? Because if you want to compare the two, that is what would have to happen.
I presume you oppose genocide and think we should do whatever it takes to stop it, and should certainly never legalize it in our own country; I agree, and apply the same standard to abortion.
quote:
The problem with it becoming a law, is the law will give another human being, the right to make a decision about a woman's body. It will then open the door for the state to come in and make other decisions about people's bodies.
No, the law will provide protection for a human life, which is consistent with every other law we have. The unborn child is not ‘her body’, as exemplified by the fact that the unborn child can die and she can live, or vice versa. In many states, if you injure a woman and her unborn child dies, you can be charged with murder – that signifies the separate nature of the two bodies, and how they can be, and should be, treated separately by law.
quote:
Eventually, the state is going to mandate a RFID chip "must" be injected under the skin, all in the name of the law. You know what legal precedent will usher that in? Taking away the woman's right to choose. For the state to decide they know what is best for the individual. We already see laws that have gone into effect that support the government' rights to decide for the people.
Conspiracy theories aside, abortion was illegal for over one hundred years without the use of ‘RFID chips’ – there is no need for these to enforce the law.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 9:52:23 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
The argument for abortion is that the innocent are dying. OK, let's look at the double standard. Genocide kills millions of innocents. We don't see people taking such hard lines against that. We don't see people taking hard lines against any other thing that kills the "innocents".
No one takes a hard line against genocide?. You live in a bubble.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 10:09:22 AM
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ChristFollower21
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Joined: 11/18/2008
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I see where your coming from, but the scenario where someone has to die in order to save a life, has nothing to do with abortion, thats a life or death situation. Abortion is when you think you can't take care of it, or you just don't want it, or you've been raped and dont want a rapist child. I think abortion is wrong. God said "Thou Shall Not Kill"
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Isaiah 55:8 " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, saith the Lord"
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 4:51:43 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3944
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
She can use birth control or not.
Well, there are more then a few pharmacists and doctors who would take away many forms of birth control based on highly questionable evidence that the hormones might possibly cause a fertilized egg to be expelled.
And of course, she has no choice in the case of rape, which is why I don't personally have a problem with the morning after pill being offered to rape patients. My standards for unborn life are the same as born life. Is there a beating heart? Is there brain activity?
I know a lot here don't agree with that point of view, but it does seem the most reasonable and logical to me, and does cut out most abortions, since by the time a woman confirms she is pregnant those standards are already met.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 5:24:40 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
What do you mean? Do you know anyone fighting for the right to committ genocide?
Point being, is the emotionalism for abortion and deaths of other innocents don't rank the same. People protest, rant, rave, scream against abortion, yet when thinking about all the "innocent" lives that are killed in a genocide, people say, "Oh how sad".
So to be so righteaous about saving the innocents, it should be across the board for ALL innocents, not just a select few.
The innocents in a genocide didn't have the choice of whether they wanted to be born or be a part of it either. God weeps for them too, somehow people over look that because they are adults. It amazes me, really.
Your point about making genocide legal is moot, as I have explained above. Making it legal is absolutely absurd. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 6:04:25 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
What do you mean? Do you know anyone fighting for the right to committ genocide?
Point being, is the emotionalism for abortion and deaths of other innocents don't rank the same. People protest, rant, rave, scream against abortion, yet when thinking about all the "innocent" lives that are killed in a genocide, people say, "Oh how sad".
So to be so righteaous about saving the innocents, it should be across the board for ALL innocents, not just a select few.
The innocents in a genocide didn't have the choice of whether they wanted to be born or be a part of it either. God weeps for them too, somehow people over look that because they are adults. It amazes me, really.
Your point about making genocide legal is moot, as I have explained above. Making it legal is absolutely absurd.
What is your point though? In your view less people care about genocide than abortion, so what. Does that make abortion any less of a cause. Generally genocide happens in far away places that are hard for most of us to get to, where a protest would have more impact. Abortion on the other hand happens right here where we are, in every ones town, where a protest has a better chance to have impact. Take into consideration also that abortion takes more lives per year than genocide, 42 million world wide, 1.37 million US.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 6:14:01 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
What is your point though? In your view less people care about genocide than abortion, so what.
That attitude IS my exact point. Thank you for displaying as a wonderful example.
ALL life should be valued, not just that which we personally define as more valuable.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 6:20:18 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
What is your point though? In your view less people care about genocide than abortion, so what.
That attitude IS my exact point. Thank you for displaying as a wonderful example.
ALL life should be valued, not just that which we personally define as more valuable.
I didnt say that was my attitude lol. look at what you quoted from me, read. i said" in....... your..... view.... less people care about genocide than abortion". I dont agree with you at all in that. The "so what" was not about people caring about one issue more than another, it was concerning your point.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/2/2008 8:34:09 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Point being, is the emotionalism for abortion and deaths of other innocents don't rank the same. People protest, rant, rave, scream against abortion, yet when thinking about all the "innocent" lives that are killed in a genocide, people say, "Oh how sad".
So to be so righteaous about saving the innocents, it should be across the board for ALL innocents, not just a select few.
The innocents in a genocide didn't have the choice of whether they wanted to be born or be a part of it either. God weeps for them too, somehow people over look that because they are adults. It amazes me, really.
Your point about making genocide legal is moot, as I have explained above. Making it legal is absolutely absurd.
The reason people do not generally respond the same way to genocide as they do to abortion is that genocides invariably occur outside the US. To stop a genocide, one would have to organize a military campaign, amass weapons, invade a country, and put down whatever group was commiting the genocide - resulting in even more loss of life. That is doable, but it is a much different prospect than the solution for abortion, which is simply changing the law.
And I have news for you - many more people have spoken out against the several thousand deaths in Dafur (which are indeed horrible) than the tens of millions that have been put to death by abortion - including yourself, apparently.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/3/2008 6:09:21 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 2603
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Point being, is the emotionalism for abortion and deaths of other innocents don't rank the same. People protest, rant, rave, scream against abortion, yet when thinking about all the "innocent" lives that are killed in a genocide, people say, "Oh how sad".
So you support the legal right to slaughter one group of innocents because you don't think people are emotional enough about the slaughter of another group of innocents? That's bizarre. 
And I think you're wrong about it, as well. It is fairly simple for an American to go down town to their local abortion mill to protest, pray and minister. By nature that is visible. It would be completely ineffective for an individual American to get on a plane, fly to Darfur, and stand in front of a genocidal army saying "Hey, stop that! Let me explain to you why this is wrong!". It's more effective to find an organization that has the means and ability and infrastructure to rescue victims and pressure governments, and send money to support that organization, and write letters as part of campaigns, etc. And by nature, writing checks and letters is less visible. Our government is not slaughtering people in Sudan or the Congo, nor is it supporting the killers with our tax dollars. Marching on washington to "stop genocide" would be basically asking the gov't to go to war, against multiple corrupt and evil governments. Is that what you want? We can, however hope that a march on washington and other public protests could be of some use, if only to remind folks that millions of innocents have been slaughtered on our own land while we self-righteously police the rest of the world for human rights violations.
_____________________________
 Moo
Shameless Self Promotion
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/3/2008 6:25:39 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
It is about how those who claim Christ defend abortion
Let me correct you here, I DO NOT defend abortion. I DO NOT support abortion. I support the right of a woman to choose. Big difference!
Let me also make a point, in my lifetime, abortion has always been legal. I never knew of a time when it was illegal, at least I wasn't old enough to recognize it.
As I have said in other threads, God is Sovereign, He already knows who is going to have an abortion and who isn't. He is all knowing and has plans for whomever. To deny that power to God, thinking that man can stop th future because they are morally outraged is also absurd. Why is that people feel that God needs our help?
He's not dependent on us. We are dependent on Him.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/3/2008 6:28:45 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
So you support the legal right to slaughter one group of innocents because you don't think people are emotional enough about the slaughter of another group of innocents? That's bizarre.
And I think you're wrong about it, as well. It is fairly simple for an American to go down town to their local abortion mill to protest, pray and minister. By nature that is visible. It would be completely ineffective for an individual American to get on a plane, fly to Darfur, and stand in front of a genocidal army saying "Hey, stop that! Let me explain to you why this is wrong!". It's more effective to find an organization that has the means and ability and infrastructure to rescue victims and pressure governments, and send money to support that organization, and write letters as part of campaigns, etc. And by nature, writing checks and letters is less visible. Our government is not slaughtering people in Sudan or the Congo, nor is it supporting the killers with our tax dollars. Marching on washington to "stop genocide" would be basically asking the gov't to go to war, against multiple corrupt and evil governments. Is that what you want? We can, however hope that a march on washington and other public protests could be of some use, if only to remind folks that millions of innocents have been slaughtered on our own land while we self-righteously police the rest of the world for human rights violations.
Congratulations, that is the weirdest twist of my words I have ever seen and believe me I have seen seem weird ones
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/3/2008 6:29:24 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8875
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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By your arguments people should have the right to choose to murder and to steal since GOd knows that's going to happen too.
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L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/3/2008 6:33:39 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
By your arguments people should have the right to choose to murder and to steal since GOd knows that's going to happen too.
Even though things are illegal, people styill choose to do them. God knows this too. Just because something is illegal doesn't deter those who choose to do it, from doing it. It also doesn't take away the consequences of said action. Without repentance, well we know what choice is made, now don't we?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/3/2008 6:34:57 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8875
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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So, are you saying that they should be legal too since people still do them? Is there anything that should be illegal since people will choose to do anything they want?
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L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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