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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 12:40:04 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
I dont think you are pro-choice about everything. Would you allow your teen to get drunk and then go driving. forget driving, would you allow your teen to drink?. if not then your against that choice.
Evidently, you missed the part about being pro-consequence too. I can forbid my child to drink and drive, that doesn't mean he won't do it anyway... It does mean that he will suffer the consequences for his choice. Making a choice one way or the other, doesn't mean I advocate the said choice, advocating would be supportive of the idea. I don't support driving drunk, I don't support abortion, however I do support people having the right to make a choice. The choice maybe an unwise decision, which we have all made at some point and time, yet, with God's Grace, we lived to learn from it.
quote:
If you promote being able to choose abortion as a legitimate option that is advocacy.
Again, I don't support abortion as a viable option, however, there are those that do. It is not my place or anyone's place to make that choice for them.
Saying that I am an advocate for it, is just untrue and it ignores the word CHOICE. Meaning that with any choice we make, we choose the consequence that goes with it.
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Our whole legal system is based on limiting choice.
Too many to list disagreement with.... 
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I assume you refer to the old canard of it being hypocritical to endorse capital punishment while opposing abortion, which is simple to refute as it deals with the innocence of the life being taken. Babies are innocent as opposed to murderers.
Yes, that argument is one of many. To discuss the others would be off topic.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 1:35:10 PM
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RamiRedeemed
Posts: 2628
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I'm curious, John, as to what you could accomplish if you channeled all of the energy you use on hate and use it for good?
What if, instead of complaining all the time and pretending that you are the oracle of the Lord, what if you spent some time counseling and witnessing to a young woman who wants to make a choice? Or better yet, how about counseling a young man who wants to desert that young woman thus forcing her to make the choice to not carry full term??
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 1:39:23 PM
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zoebob
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If abortion were to be outlawed you would still have a choice whether to have one or not...just be prepared to suffer the consequences...just like if you steal somthing, drive while drunk. There are a lot of things out there that you don't have a choice on if you want to stay on the right side of the law...However, YOu still have that choice.
As for abortion vs death penalty: there is a difference between murder and killing. All killing isn't necessarily murder.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 2:35:55 PM
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sparenoarrows
Posts: 10
Joined: 5/7/2008
From: Northern Califorina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Can someone please explain to me how pro-choice =pro-abortion? I'm pro-choice about everything! I'm also pro-consequence for every choice made .
If one is truly pro-consequence they shouldn't have a problem with laws that bring about consequences...
quote:
I don't support abortion, I don't advocate abortion and I find it totally offensive that people who support choice are treated as less Christian than a pro-life Christian.
How should folks who support the murder of unborn children be treated? And aren't Christians supposed to be held to a higher standard?
quote:
If we lose our right to make choices, we lose our right to freedom. It's really that simple. It blows my mind that people who spout freedom for this and freedom for that, CHOOSE to have freedom inhibiting laws. They want to say it's for our safety..... Really? How safe is it for the Americans pocketbooks to be emptied by our freedom loving government?
One should be free to murder?
quote:
Taking some of the anti-abortion stances does indeed make one look like a hypocrite. It's ok for some things, yet others it's not. A double standard at it's finest. As Christians, we should all have a standard of consistency, at the very least.
Christians should be consistence and support the freedom of people to be as evil as they can be?
_____________________________
John
Jeremiah 50:14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the Lord.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 2:48:33 PM
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sparenoarrows
Posts: 10
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From: Northern Califorina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Evidently, you missed the part about being pro-consequence too. I can forbid my child to drink and drive, that doesn't mean he won't do it anyway... It does mean that he will suffer the consequences for his choice.
Yes, because there is a law against drinking and driving...
quote:
Making a choice one way or the other, doesn't mean I advocate the said choice, advocating would be supportive of the idea. I don't support driving drunk, I don't support abortion, however I do support people having the right to make a choice.
Drinking and driving is against the law... Are you advocating that the law against it be repealed? To be consistent you should...
quote:
The choice maybe an unwise decision, which we have all made at some point and time, yet, with God's Grace, we lived to learn from it.
In your zeal for personal freedoms you seem to have lost sight that at times when some folks exercise there so-called personal freedoms they trample on the freedom's of others...
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Again, I don't support abortion as a viable option,
You support it as a option for others...
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however, there are those that do.
Some folks believe they should be allowed to drink and drive and according to your logic they have a right to...
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It is not my place or anyone's place to make that choice for them.
Actually it is... God ordained the civil government for the sake of order... Drinking and driving is against the law because to puts others at risk... Right?
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Saying that I am an advocate for it, is just untrue and it ignores the word CHOICE. Meaning that with any choice we make, we choose the consequence that goes with it.
What consequences? You are against consequences...
quote:
Our whole legal system is based on limiting choice.
Too many to list disagreement with....
_____________________________
John
Jeremiah 50:14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the Lord.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 3:09:47 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Evidently, you missed the part about being pro-consequence too. I can forbid my child to drink and drive, that doesn't mean he won't do it anyway... It does mean that he will suffer the consequences for his choice.
Yes, because there is a law against drinking and driving...
quote:
Making a choice one way or the other, doesn't mean I advocate the said choice, advocating would be supportive of the idea. I don't support driving drunk, I don't support abortion, however I do support people having the right to make a choice.
Drinking and driving is against the law... Are you advocating that the law against it be repealed? To be consistent you should...
quote:
The choice maybe an unwise decision, which we have all made at some point and time, yet, with God's Grace, we lived to learn from it.
In your zeal for personal freedoms you seem to have lost sight that at times when some folks exercise there so-called personal freedoms they trample on the freedom's of others...
quote:
Again, I don't support abortion as a viable option,
You support it as a option for others...
quote:
however, there are those that do.
Some folks believe they should be allowed to drink and drive and according to your logic they have a right to...
quote:
It is not my place or anyone's place to make that choice for them.
Actually it is... God ordained the civil government for the sake of order... Drinking and driving is against the law because to puts others at risk... Right?
quote:
Saying that I am an advocate for it, is just untrue and it ignores the word CHOICE. Meaning that with any choice we make, we choose the consequence that goes with it.
What consequences? You are against consequences...
quote:
Our whole legal system is based on limiting choice.
Too many to list disagreement with....
Let me put it to you this way. As a Christian, my concern should be about people's soul's, their eternal destination. Nothing we do in this life matters, after we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. We have been cleansed by HIS blood. Now, I can go around protesting abortion or I can spend my time reaching out to the lost.
Choice being the crux of my argument, we CHOOSE for Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. What is the consequence of not choosing Him?
Eternal damnation.
Choice and consequence, my friend. We choose DEATH, any way you want to slice it, when He is not CHOSEN. Be it, whatever (insert pet sin here), over God.
So, we can go tit for tat on this, or we can look at it the terms of eternal consequence, which I choose to do.
Sin separates, His blood has washed us whole-no matter what we may have done or will do.
That my friends, is the message we need to be spreading.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 3:14:59 PM
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sparenoarrows
Posts: 10
Joined: 5/7/2008
From: Northern Califorina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
I'm curious, John, as to what you could accomplish if you channeled all of the energy you use on hate and use it for good?
Hating abortion is for good... Imagine what you could accomplish if you dealt with abortion and didn't make me the issue,. 3000 unborn child will be slaughtered today and your biggest contribution against that cause is an ad hominin attack attack on me...
quote:
What if, instead of complaining all the time and pretending that you are the oracle of the Lord, what if you spent some time counseling and witnessing to a young woman who wants to make a choice?
You speak as if you are not pretending... That is always the trouble passing judgment on those who you say pass judgment... The person points the finger at themselves as well..
I have spent time...Over my 20 years of speaking against abortion I have counseled and witnessed to many folks... You have that much time doing so? And I can post as well here regarding Christians supporting murder...
And since there are plenty of things one could be doing for good other than posting here for one to mention it is disingenuous... Again the person points the finger at themselves
quote:
Or better yet, how about counseling a young man who wants to desert that young woman thus forcing her to make the choice to not carry full term??
I have, do and will... Have you? I hope not since it's clear you excuse behavior before dealing with it...
The man leaving isn't a viable excuse to murder the child... The father is responsible, but the mother's actions are not excused by the actions of the father.
_____________________________
John
Jeremiah 50:14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the Lord.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 3:26:50 PM
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sparenoarrows
Posts: 10
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From: Northern Califorina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Let me put it to you this way. As a Christian, my concern should be about people's soul's, their eternal destination. Nothing we do in this life matters, after we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.
My best rebuttal is to re-post your own words... I am pretty sure most folks here know a few verses off the top of their head that debunk the above...
quote:
We have been cleansed by HIS blood. Now, I can go around protesting abortion or I can spend my time reaching out to the lost.
Standing against abortion is reaching out to the lost... Actually you can ignore the lost, since as you stated, "Nothing we do in this life matters, after we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior"
quote:
Choice being the crux of my argument, we CHOOSE for Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. What is the consequence of not choosing Him?
Eternal damnation.
You argument doesn't take into account that when some make choices they rape, murder, steal, and so which conflicts with the choice of others, like breathing for instance...
quote:
Choice and consequence, my friend. We choose DEATH, any way you want to slice it, when He is not CHOSEN. Be it, whatever (insert pet sin here), over God.
So, we can go tit for tat on this, or we can look at it the terms of eternal consequence, which I choose to do.
Denying temporal consequences is an issue and your argument isn't very sound... You spoke of drinking and driving having consequences... Were you referring to eternal ones?
quote:
Sin separates, His blood has washed us whole-no matter what we may have done or will do.
That my friends, is the message we need to be spreading.
We need to spread the message that one can do as they please once they are saved...
_____________________________
John
Jeremiah 50:14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the Lord.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 3:47:19 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
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quote:
"Nothing we do in this life matters, after we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior"
Maybe, I could have worded this better...
Meaning, IF Christ is our Lord and Savior, our salvation (eternal destination) is secured. When we choose to follow Christ, we choose His ways over the ways of the world. Not perfectly, but more often than not. Was that better?
quote:
You argument doesn't take into account that when some make choices they rape, murder, steal, and so which conflicts with the choice of others, like breathing for instance...
Tis life. Nobody ever said it was fair. Nobody ever promised us that there would be justice for every move we make.
We are told to trust the Lord and rejoice when there are trials.
quote:
Denying temporal consequences is an issue and your argument isn't very sound... You spoke of drinking and driving having consequences... Were you referring to eternal ones?
Consequences are consequences, here or eternally. Drinking and driving have consequences, abortion has consequences. We all have the option of Grace, should we choose it.
Consequences on this earth are not the same as the rewards we will see in Heaven.
The results are rewards for our choices made while here.
quote:
We need to spread the message that one can do as they please once they are saved...
Please do not twist my words to make an invalid argument, trying to make it sound like I am saying something, I most certainly am not.
Do you know how many women feel as though they have committed the unpardonable sin?
Why is it that as Christians, we have received Grace and Mercy, yet we aren't out there telling them that is what they will receive at the foot of the cross?
I'm sure you have done things in your life that you didn't deserve forgiveness for, like the rest of us, yet you were forgiven and He loves you in spite of your humanness.
To whom much is given, much will be required.
We have been forgiven much and we are required to forgive as much.
Grace and Mercy, my friend, to us undeserved too.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 4:07:10 PM
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zoebob
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sparenoarrows,
Please contact community@salemwebnetwork.com regarding the status of your account.
Do not attempt to post until you have done so and receive a reply and keep in mind that it is a holiday weekend.
Do not send me PM's about this.
Zoebob
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L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 7:09:07 PM
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relady
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quote:
I don't know it all, and neither does anyone on this entire forum. Nor anyone in this entire world. I know that, I was being sarcastic toward those who DO seem to think they already have THE ONE AND ONLY correct interpretation of scripture. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 9:58:56 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
I don't know it all, and neither does anyone on this entire forum. Nor anyone in this entire world. I know that, I was being sarcastic toward those who DO seem to think they already have THE ONE AND ONLY correct interpretation of scripture. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
My apologies.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 11:39:53 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 6:37:40 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
I said pro-abortion because I meant those who are in favor of abortion or keeping abortion legal.
I really think that is a more appropriate term rather than pro-choice. It truly defines a person's stance without the controversy of the word choice.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 6:43:27 AM
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deliveredarling
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Allow me to clarify one thing though. I don't believe that abortion should be illegal.
We know what happens when we make touchy things illegal by looking at history. The prohibition for example. Guns as another example.
Making it illegal will only serve to open up a black market abortion ring. It will put many lives at risk for death and disease.
Personally, I would rather abortion did n't happen at all, but if it must, I would prefer to see the woman have the abortion, turn her life to Christ and repent, rather than her die, missing any further opportunity for Christ's redemption, from a dirty operating room.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 2:08:25 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
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quote:
As for abortion vs death penalty: there is a difference between murder and killing. All killing isn't necessarily murder.
Aye, and anyone who rationally equates a death penalty to abortion, by justifying one with the other, has seriously allowed themselves to be morally wiped out. One is a matter of punishing the guilty (death penalty), and the other is a matter of protecting the innocent (abortion). To group these two completely different things together only shows how unable to decern evil that a person has become. It is morally bankrupt and dishonest to do so.
Abortion is murder, which is just the tip of the iceburg. The death penalty is punishing a guilty person with death. A death penalty was justified at a time commanded by the Lord. Regardless of that being a time preceding Jesus, it was commanded by the Lord, and unless someone wants to try and convince me the Lord is evil or commands us do evil things, there is no basis for connecting the MURDER of the innocent (abortion) and the KILLING of the guilty (death penalty).
God calls hell the second death--and the second death (hell) is the punishment many will receive for rejecting His son. Many people deny that God would be so cruel to do this. They say if this is true, then God is morally evil. I disagree with this, of course.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 4:30:31 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
The death penalty is punishing a guilty person with death. A death penalty was justified at a time commanded by the Lord. Regardless of that being a time preceding Jesus, it was commanded by the Lord, and unless someone wants to try and convince me the Lord is evil or commands us do evil things, there is no basis for connecting the MURDER of the innocent (abortion) and the KILLING of the guilty (death penalty).
The death penalty being wrong has nothing to do with the Lord being evil, Daniel. It was used at a time prior to the coming of Christ when the Hebrew Law was necessary.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 6:01:17 PM
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Jhud
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I am not sure how this thread came to have anything at all to do with the death penalty; I think for the sake of clarity, the death penalty should really be considered a different topic for a different thread.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 6:58:38 PM
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RamiRedeemed
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theres a difference between pro choice and pro abortion.
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 8:44:34 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am not sure how this thread came to have anything at all to do with the death penalty; I think for the sake of clarity, the death penalty should really be considered a different topic for a different thread.
It came in when I pointed out the bizzareness (sp?) of people who are anti-abortion not being also pro-death penalty as a comparison, and how it appears hypocritical (and by my argument, IS hypocritical). You're probably right, though and there is a thread dealing with the death penalty. But that's how it came into being.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 9:07:27 PM
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HisFish
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
theres a difference between pro choice and pro abortion.
'bout a dimes worth.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 12/1/2008 9:29:25 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
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quote:
You don't think there should be any laws?
Should we be legally free to murder? Rape? Drown unwanted kids?
If the unborn are human beings, then abortion is murder (and not even gentle "euthanasia" but violent, painful destruction), and *why* should that be a matter of free choice?
Did I say there shouldn't be any laws? Obviously we have laws. The only reason abortion is a debate is because it isn't a law.
Why should it be a choice? For the same reason as you deciding who to marry or what clothes to wear or what time to go to bed. Because it is about you and your own decisions for YOUR life.
We cross the line when we decide what is right for the population as a whole. We don't take into account extenuating circumstances and invariably someone gets over looked.
Some people don;t think it's a right thing to do, I understand that and fully agree, but I don't think it is right for others to decide major decisions for people either. This is a personal matter that is nobody else's business.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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