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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 12:35:51 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I called what is an injustice an injustice. My view is completely accurate, and I have not called God's justice barbaric. The days of the Old Law are gone (thanks be to Jesus Christ). It served its purpose.
Where do I insert the following? IN YOUR INTERPRETATION! 
If it's injustice now it was unjust then... God nor Jesus have changed... What is murder hasn't change, cept that Christ said if you hate a brother without cause it is the same...
And here is where I asked to see where Christ repealed the punishment for murder....
Here? Nope...
Matt 15:3-4
"Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ´Honor your father and mother´ and ´Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death´."
Here? Nope... Btw.. Drowning was not an uncommon method of punishment for Greeks and Romans..
Matt 18:6
"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
Did Jesus rebuke the thief? Nope...
Luke 23:41
"We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Would Paul have submitted to the following if it were a sin... Nope...
Acts 25:11
"If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die."
John 19:10-11
"Do you refuse to speak to me? Pilate said. Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you? Jesus answered, You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."
Jesus indirectly confesses here the authority’s right to be a punishing authority and that that power comes from God. And in this case the power to sentence death by crucifixion. Even though Jesus was innocently convicted he does not question the capital punishment itself. It is not an acknowledgment either, but it comes close. It is worth noticing that Jesus does not, in any time of the gospels, criticize the diligent usage of the death penalty in his time.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 12:43:02 AM
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relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Of course, like I said, you could actually try and learn from people, rather than simply play God and pass a judgement that you aren't fit to pass. Learning something about other people often leads to you better being able to understand them and (if necessary) convert them. But Torch, life is so much easier when you don't feel you need to try and learn anything because you already know it all and have the ONLY correct answers.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 12:57:40 AM
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HisFish
Posts: 687
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Really, this is just proving what I've said about this board earlier in this thread: We have a lot of people who aren't willing to listen to another side of an issue, and are more simply eager to pound their views down someone else's throat.
If the other is trying to convince me God is ok with butchering children in the womb then i wouldn't even be willing to listen to what they have to say, i wouldn't even want to stand in their presence. I would however marvel at how delusional that person was to believe they knew Christ and the revulsion i would feel that they dare deem themselves Christians.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 1:08:41 AM
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Kath
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I know in many abortion threads members will write the word Christian with parentheses around it. Please do not do so as it is considered inflammatory and a violation of TOS 6. Thank you.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 1:22:46 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I called what is an injustice an injustice. My view is completely accurate, and I have not called God's justice barbaric. The days of the Old Law are gone (thanks be to Jesus Christ). It served its purpose.
Where do I insert the following? IN YOUR INTERPRETATION!
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's right, folks! HE CAN BE TAUGHT!!!!! Interpretations can differ.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/30/2008 1:50:49 AM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 1:33:11 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
But Torch, life is so much easier when you don't feel you need to try and learn anything because you already know it all and have the ONLY correct answers.
I don't know it all, and neither does anyone on this entire forum. Nor anyone in this entire world.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 1:36:57 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
Matt 15:3-4
"Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ´Honor your father and mother´ and ´Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death´."
AH! So if anyone curses his mom or dad, we should put them to death! How come we're not doing this?
Maybe Christ isn't speaking of physical death?
quote:
Here? Nope... Btw.. Drowning was not an uncommon method of punishment for Greeks and Romans..
Matt 18:6
"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
And this means..... nothing in this argument. Christ makes a comparison. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.... IN MY INTERPRETATION (feel better?  )
quote:
Did Jesus rebuke the thief? Nope...
Luke 23:41
"We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
So he didn't rebuke him. Again, not justification of the death penalty.
If it did justify it, this also would justify that anyone who steals something should be put to death.
quote:
Would Paul have submitted to the following if it were a sin... Nope...
Acts 25:11
"If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die."
This doesn't justify it, either.
quote:
John 19:10-11
"Do you refuse to speak to me? Pilate said. Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you? Jesus answered, You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."
Jesus indirectly confesses here the authority’s right to be a punishing authority and that that power comes from God. And in this case the power to sentence death by crucifixion. Even though Jesus was innocently convicted he does not question the capital punishment itself. It is not an acknowledgment either, but it comes close.
It doesn't even come close as an acknowegement. Nor does Jesus confess to the authority's RIGHT to punish in such a manner. Simply that God has put Pilate in a position to carry out this act. Whether it is just or not is not determined here.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 1:41:28 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
What part exactly has someone not 'accurately' conveyed to you?
sorry. "Accurately" snuck in there from when I was revising the post.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 2:09:51 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I called what is an injustice an injustice. My view is completely accurate, and I have not called God's justice barbaric. The days of the Old Law are gone (thanks be to Jesus Christ). It served its purpose.
Where do I insert the following? IN YOUR INTERPRETATION!
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's right, folks! HE CAN BE TAUGHT!!!!! Interpretations can differ.
Never in doubt... The issue is them having substance... You believe those who you say commit a barbaric act have as much scriptural clout as a person who doesn't agree with them... I am curious how you come to that conclusion...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 2:32:39 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
What did Jesus say? Before asking me or we, how about dealing with the fact of what Jesus said...
But its OT law, isn't it? Jesus wouldn't go against the OT law. We are all still bound by OT Law, right?
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/30/2008 2:45:11 AM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 2:35:11 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
Aside from the historical fact drowning was a form of punishment at the time... Oh wait... Facts are not important, simply having a view is all that one needs and the fact that anything can be pushed aside by simply having a different interpretation. Facts aside... Or just infer doubt with "maybe"...
OK. So enlighten me. Explain to me how the fact that drowning was a form of punishment at the time mean that Christ is advocating the death penalty.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 2:39:53 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
Yet He says nothing, nor does He ever....
Nor does he ever condone it.
quote:
The words of God states that the thieves justly received there due reward...
No, they do not. Christ not telling this man that what is happening to them is wrong isn't justifying this. See my above comment.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 3:04:05 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Really, this is just proving what I've said about this board earlier in this thread: We have a lot of people who aren't willing to listen to another side of an issue, and are more simply eager to pound their views down someone else's throat.
If the other is trying to convince me God is ok with butchering children in the womb then i wouldn't even be willing to listen to what they have to say, i wouldn't even want to stand in their presence. I would however marvel at how delusional that person was to believe they knew Christ and the revulsion i would feel that they dare deem themselves Christians.
So could a Christian be pro-life, yet vote pro-choice?
_____________________________
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 4:38:08 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
What did Jesus say? Before asking me or we, how about dealing with the fact of what Jesus said...
But its OT law, isn't it? Jesus wouldn't go against the OT law. We are all still bound by OT Law, right?
Last I checked it wasn't ok to lie, steal or murder... If you have something revoking what is right and wrong by all means share it...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 4:39:08 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
Aside from the historical fact drowning was a form of punishment at the time... Oh wait... Facts are not important, simply having a view is all that one needs and the fact that anything can be pushed aside by simply having a different interpretation. Facts aside... Or just infer doubt with "maybe"...
OK. So enlighten me. Explain to me how the fact that drowning was a form of punishment at the time mean that Christ is advocating the death penalty.
You think Christ for no reason chose those words?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 4:49:49 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Nor does he ever condone it.
He commands it... Unless you believe Christ is at odds with Himself... Or that He morphed into something else after manifesting Himself in the flesh...
To say He NEVER condone is a denial of Christ so to speak since He is, the same, yesterday, today and forever... He didn't arrive after the fact... Since even you admit it was condone in the OT, Christ therefore condone it... So once again an absolute statement is clearly shown to be wrong... Your own words bring down your argument...
quote:
No, they do not.
Yes they do... You can post your interpretation all you wish... The following is plain and clear...
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
quote:
Christ not telling this man that what is happening to them is wrong isn't justifying this.
The word of God says they JUSTLY received their DUE REWARD and Christ isn't at odds with Himself, God, or His word...
You say Christ says one thing(Yet, He never says it...) and His word say very clear another....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 4:51:03 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Really, this is just proving what I've said about this board earlier in this thread: We have a lot of people who aren't willing to listen to another side of an issue, and are more simply eager to pound their views down someone else's throat.
If the other is trying to convince me God is ok with butchering children in the womb then i wouldn't even be willing to listen to what they have to say, i wouldn't even want to stand in their presence. I would however marvel at how delusional that person was to believe they knew Christ and the revulsion i would feel that they dare deem themselves Christians.
So could a Christian be pro-life, yet vote pro-choice?
Sure, though it would be wrong... Support for murder is wrong... If not, murder is ok...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 7:46:16 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
He commands it... Unless you believe Christ is at odds with Himself... Or that He morphed into something else after manifesting Himself in the flesh...
Where does He command it?
EDIT: Maybe this is a better question to ask: Are you saying that He would be at odds with Himself because this would go against the old Hebrew Law that He was about to fulfill/destroy?
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/30/2008 1:19:30 PM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 7:47:37 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
Last I checked it wasn't ok to lie, steal or murder... If you have something revoking what is right and wrong by all means share it...
You're right. Its not ok to lie, steal or murder. We're not in disagreement there. Where we're disagreeing in is what is the appropriate punishment for it.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/30/2008 7:59:00 AM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 11:41:39 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Can someone please explain to me how pro-choice =pro-abortion? I'm pro-choice about everything! I'm also pro-consequence for every choice made  .
I don't support abortion, I don't advocate abortion and I find it totally offensive that people who support choice are treated as less Christian than a pro-life Christian.
If we lose our right to make choices, we lose our right to freedom. It's really that simple. It blows my mind that people who spout freedom for this and freedom for that, CHOOSE to have freedom inhibiting laws. They want to say it's for our safety..... Really? How safe is it for the Americans pocketbooks to be emptied by our freedom loving government?
Taking some of the anti-abortion stances does indeed make one look like a hypocrite. It's ok for some things, yet others it's not. A double standard at it's finest. As Christians, we should all have a standard of consistency, at the very least.
I can go on and on with this, but, I summed it up in a nutshell without ranting on.......
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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