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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 7:19:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
Christians can never obey God and support abortion.
Actually, they can. Many do, and they're better at backing up their views than I am since I'm not one of them. You should find those who do and ask them of their views. Like I said before, I created that other thread so those people could express their views to people who don't understand them.
Its comments like that that make those people not want to share their views with other people on this forum. Not because that automatically makes you right, but because many others will simply rain down their judgement and criticism of them without even listening to opposing arguments.
I for one love to here folks use the word of God to justify killing the unborn while many of the same call the death penalty barbaric...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 7:22:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I didn't want people NOT asking them questions; What I didn't want was the self-righteous shoving their own interpretations of Scripture down their throats and telling them that they were wrong in their views. Unfortunately, the latter is what they will experience in this thread, as I feel other posters have already made clear.
As it should... Murder is wrong and those who support don't wish to hear the truth and it should offend... And it's very telling they need an insulated thread to post their "arguments" in support of cold blooded murder...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 8:17:11 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I didn't want people NOT asking them questions; What I didn't want was the self-righteous shoving their own interpretations of Scripture down their throats and telling them that they were wrong in their views. Unfortunately, the latter is what they will experience in this thread, as I feel other posters have already made clear.
As it should... Murder is wrong and those who support don't wish to hear the truth and it should offend... And it's very telling they need an insulated thread to post their "arguments" in support of cold blooded murder...
Or it could've been that someone just wanted a civilized discussion?
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 8:33:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I didn't want people NOT asking them questions; What I didn't want was the self-righteous shoving their own interpretations of Scripture down their throats and telling them that they were wrong in their views. Unfortunately, the latter is what they will experience in this thread, as I feel other posters have already made clear.
As it should... Murder is wrong and those who support don't wish to hear the truth and it should offend... And it's very telling they need an insulated thread to post their "arguments" in support of cold blooded murder...
Or it could've been that someone just wanted a civilized discussion?
No.. They want to justify their sinful actions... There is nothing civilized about making excuses for abortion...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 9:14:39 PM
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tomhillbilly
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Death penalty being brought into this is nothing more than a rabbit-hole argument. Is not the spirit of Gods word common sense for those with the faith to examine themselves with it in truth? Surely no bible believers think that moses just made all this stuff up so people could just go around executing each other. God forbid! These laws are for the betterment and safety of a community, particularly in the case of a rapist or a murderer.
fact: leave a pregnant woman alone and youll find out soon enough that what was growing inside her was human every step of the way. I personally have never been threatened by a fetus, embryo, baby, children or a full grown woman for that matter. I dont see the argument at all for abortion among christians or how it relates to scripture.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 1:07:37 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Actually, they can. Many do, and they're better at backing up their views than I am since I'm not one of them. You should find those who do and ask them of their views. Like I said before, I created that other thread so those people could express their views to people who don't understand them.
If abortion is murder, and there is no basis to say that it isn't, then one cannot support murder and obey God; it is impossible. They can attempt to justify murder, they can attempt to dismiss what abortion actually is, but they cannot obey God and support the murder of an unborn child. I have been discussing this issue for over twenty years and I have yet to see a justification for abortion that isn't based on bad biology, a bad understanding of Scripture, or simple indifference to human life for the sake of one's own selfish desires.
quote:
Its comments like that that make those people not want to share their views with other people on this forum. Not because that automatically makes you right, but because many others will simply rain down their judgement and criticism of them without even listening to opposing arguments.
I am sorry if it bothers you to be told you are wrong; but if you were a slaveholder and were trying to tell me blacks simply 'aren’t’ as human' as whites are, I would tell you that position was wrong and ungodly – and the fact that it bothered you wouldn’t be nearly as big a concern as the fact that you could justify enslaving a human being.
The fact that it bothers you that some people are saying abortion is wrong should not bother you as much as the fact that millions of human beings are dead because a number of Christians justify the action.
I don't want Christians to share their opinion with me; I want them to help stop killing babies.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 1:19:06 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Actually, they can. Many do, and they're better at backing up their views than I am since I'm not one of them. You should find those who do and ask them of their views. Like I said before, I created that other thread so those people could express their views to people who don't understand them.
If abortion is murder, and there is no basis to say that it isn't, then one cannot support murder and obey God; it is impossible. They can attempt to justify murder, they can attempt to dismiss what abortion actually is, but they cannot obey God and support the murder of an unborn child. I have been discussing this issue for over twenty years and I have yet to see a justification for abortion that isn't based on bad biology, a bad understanding of Scripture, or simple indifference to human life for the sake of one's own selfish desires.
quote:
Its comments like that that make those people not want to share their views with other people on this forum. Not because that automatically makes you right, but because many others will simply rain down their judgement and criticism of them without even listening to opposing arguments.
I am sorry if it bothers you to be told you are wrong; but if you were a slaveholder and were trying to tell me blacks simply 'aren’t’ as human' as whites are, I would tell you that position was wrong and ungodly – and the fact that it bothered you wouldn’t be nearly as big a concern as the fact that you could justify enslaving a human being.
The fact that it bothers you that some people are saying abortion is wrong should not bother you as much as the fact that millions of human beings are dead because a number of Christians justify the action.
I don't want Christians to share their opinion with me; I want them to help stop killing babies.
A sincere and heartfelt, Amen, Jhud...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 3:16:45 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
I for one love to here folks use the word of God to justify killing the unborn while many of the same call the death penalty barbaric...
I've done no such thing, Sovey. I have accurately said that both are barbaric. Please don't put words in my mouth in this manner.
quote:
No.. They want to justify their sinful actions... There is nothing civilized about making excuses for abortion...
Or the death penalty, in many a Christian's view.
Of course, like I said, you could actually try and learn from people, rather than simply play God and pass a judgement that you aren't fit to pass. Learning something about other people often leads to you better being able to understand them and (if necessary) convert them.
Just a suggestion.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/29/2008 3:26:15 PM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 3:21:35 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
If abortion is murder,
Key world being "if," Jhud.
quote:
They can attempt to justify murder, they can attempt to dismiss what abortion actually is, but they cannot obey God and support the murder of an unborn child.
So go talk to them and find out. You might just prove yourself to be even more correct that you were before.
quote:
I am sorry if it bothers you to be told you are wrong;
It never bothers me. I'm just waiting for someone to do so, accurately. Nobody has. I just see people (many of whom I agree with) not wanting to be told that they might be wrong, or simply wanting to spout of to the choir rather than actually preach to the congregation.
Really, this is just proving what I've said about this board earlier in this thread: We have a lot of peolpe who aren't willing to listen to another side of an issue, and are more simply eager to pound their views down someone else's throat.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 3:22:59 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Of course, like I said, you could actually try and learn from people, rather than simply play God and pass a judgement that you aren't fit to pass. Learning something about other people often leads to you better being able to understand them and (if necessary) convert them.
Just a suggestion.
Yup!
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 8:59:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I've done no such thing, Sovey. I have accurately said that both are barbaric. Please don't put words in my mouth in this manner.
You put the words there by calling what is clearly justice an injustice when you compare abortion to the state justly putting someone to death for deeds... Your view is far from accurate and it renders God's justice barbaric...
quote:
Or the death penalty, in many a Christian's view.
Hardly since many of the "Christians" who are against the death penalty have no issue with abortion when it comes to rape... No issue with sentencing the child to death for the actions of the father... Yet they call the "death penalty" barbaric...
quote:
Of course, like I said, you could actually try and learn from people,
Learn what? I have been posting on this forum for almost ten years... I have heard every argument for abortion... I guess I could learn to make excuses for wrong behavior...
quote:
rather than simply play God and pass a judgement that you aren't fit to pass.
As for judgment... Those who murder condemn and judge themselves... Of coruse you don't seem to take issue with passing judgment... And yes, you are when you state you view that, " Its wrong no matter what."
quote:
Learning something about other people often leads to you better being able to understand them and (if necessary) convert them.
Just a suggestion.
I have learned quite a bit from them and that is why I hammer their weak arguments for murdering the unborn and the fact they don't like says I am doing the right thing...
As for converting them? What is the need? Aren't they already Christian?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 9:06:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
It never bothers me. I'm just waiting for someone to do so, accurately. Nobody has. I just see people (many of whom I agree with) not wanting to be told that they might be wrong, or simply wanting to spout of to the choir rather than actually preach to the congregation.
You do realize for the most part this is a Christian forum?
quote:
Really, this is just proving what I've said about this board earlier in this thread: We have a lot of peolpe who aren't willing to listen to another side of an issue, and are more simply eager to pound their views down someone else's throat.
It's not to tough to prove preconceived notions... I have "listened" to the other side for about the last decade and longer outside this forum... I spoke out against abortion in school in the early 80's Same excuses... Same weak biblical references... All the while... 3000 unborn children are murdered each day... And they do so in the name of God..
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 10:01:17 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Yes, just mine... And simply because people believe the word of God allows them to murder the unborn somehow grants validity to their claim is a dangerous precedent...
Actually, most of the pro-abortion Christians that I know claim that the Bible doesn't say that abortion is murder.
Quite frankly, my pro-life stance is not based on the Bible but on science.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 10:11:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
Actually, most of the pro-abortion Christians that I know claim that the Bible doesn't say that abortion is murder.
Most? I think all would... Woe to the ones who believe the bible says it's murder and they ignore it...
quote:
Quite frankly, my pro-life stance is not based on the Bible but on science.
Is that to say the bible is for abortion?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 10:26:05 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Quite frankly, my pro-life stance is not based on the Bible but on science.
Is that to say the bible is for abortion?
I've never said the Bible says one way or the other.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 10:28:27 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Quite frankly, my pro-life stance is not based on the Bible but on science.
Is that to say the bible is for abortion?
I've never said the Bible says one way or the other.
Hence my question...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 10:37:59 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Quite frankly, my pro-life stance is not based on the Bible but on science.
Is that to say the bible is for abortion?
I've never said the Bible says one way or the other.
Hence my question...
The Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but science proves it does.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 11:25:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Quite frankly, my pro-life stance is not based on the Bible but on science.
Is that to say the bible is for abortion?
I've never said the Bible says one way or the other.
Hence my question...
The Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but science proves it does.
The bible speaks of life in the womb and it can only begin at the start, conception... It doesn't come to life over time...It's alive from the start... Science isn't proving life, it's simply coming to the understanding of God's truth...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 11:27:37 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
You put the words there by calling what is clearly justice an injustice when you compare abortion to the state justly putting someone to death for deeds... Your view is far from accurate and it renders God's justice barbaric...
No, YOU put those words there, as you tend to do in many of your arguments on this site. So stop, Sovey.
I called what is an injustice an injustice. My view is completely accurate, and I have not called God's justice barbaric. The days of the Old Law are gone (thanks be to Jesus Christ). It served its purpose.
quote:
Hardly since many of the "Christians" who are against the death penalty have no issue with abortion when it comes to rape... No issue with sentencing the child to death for the actions of the father... Yet they call the "death penalty" barbaric...
So go discuss that with them. Though I woudln't use the word "many,' for certain.
quote:
Learn what? I have been posting on this forum for almost ten years... I have heard every argument for abortion... I guess I could learn to make excuses for wrong behavior...
And yet you've apparently learned nothing and grown little if at all in those 10 years. I doubt you've HEARD any argument but the ones you make.
quote:
I have learned quite a bit from them and that is why I hammer their weak arguments for murdering the unborn and the fact they don't like says I am doing the right thing...
Yet you refuse to listen to any argument from them, from what I see. You simply proclaim your interpretation of the Bible and the "facts" as you claim to know them as being right. I doubt that its your arguments they don't like (you give yourself WAY too much credit); I think its your style (just a thought).
quote:
As for converting them? What is the need? Aren't they already Christian?
Just like you are. No better and no worse in the eyes of God. Remember that.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/29/2008 11:43:06 PM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/29/2008 11:38:38 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
You do realize for the most part this is a Christian forum?
Yeah, that's why I joined it. I'm a Christian. Catholic, to be exact. But a Christian, no less.
quote:
It's not to tough to prove preconceived notions...
Hmmm. Yeah, it is. Unless you really are that all-knowing as God is.
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I have "listened" to the other side for about the last decade and longer outside this forum... I spoke out against abortion in school in the early 80's Same excuses... Same weak biblical references... All the while... 3000 unborn children are murdered each day...
Your references aren't any stronger than their's from what I see. If you think they are, go take it up with people who disagree with you. Why do you still try to convince me that abortion is wrong when I've stated over and over again that I agree with you. What is everyone missing??? Hmmm... No, its not what you think.
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And they do so in the name of God..
Lots of people are murdered in the name of God. They have been for centuries.
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The bible speaks of life in the womb and it can only begin at the start, conception... It doesn't come to life over time...It's alive from the start...
IN YOUR INTERPRETATION!
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Science isn't proving life, it's simply coming to the understanding of God's truth...
Correction. Science is our ability to come to a better understand of God's world, and learn its secrets as He truly wants us to. maybe we're saying the same thing, but your wording just seems to narrow.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/29/2008 11:52:48 PM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 12:04:15 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
It never bothers me. I'm just waiting for someone to do so, accurately. Nobody has. I just see people (many of whom I agree with) not wanting to be told that they might be wrong, or simply wanting to spout of to the choir rather than actually preach to the congregation.
What part exactly has someone not 'accurately' conveyed to you?
And what part of this issue, precisely, do you think I am wrong about?
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/30/2008 12:11:02 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
No, YOU put those words there, as you tend to do in many of our arguments on this site. Let's stop, Sovey.
I am entitled to my opinion.... You can disagree with my view of your stance, but I am entitled to my opinion... People can phrase things how they wish and and claim all they want, but in the end if a person is hitting you with a baseball bat over the head yet they are telling you it's a pillow what is the truth?
You seem to have no trouble telling me I do this or that so please hold yourself to what you request...
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So go discuss that with them.
I do... I have... I will... One can post here and discuss this elsewhere as much as you might not think so...
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Though I woudln't use the word "many,' for certain.
Given my interaction here, which is more than yours I will stand by my words and hold others to theirs...
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And yet you've apparently learned nothing and grown little if at all in those 10 years.
Again... Learn what? Since you claim I have learned nothing it should follow that you know what I have overlooked... You call there actions barbaric... Is there something good and edifying about their view abortion and their belief that God is ok with it? By all means educate on what I have overlooked for over 20 years of actually speaking out against abortion and living to the other side...
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I doubt you've HEARD any argument but the ones you make.
I respond directly to what they say and post... They say God is ok with abortion... I ask for proof... They say God took life, even that of the unborn so He's ok with it, so why can't man... I mention that God operates on a completely different plane than man as stated in the bible... And so on... I have heard and read the most constant argument about abortion in that those who favor abortion as a routine argue the exception and ignore the rule...If I "listened" to the other side and didn't know the truth I would believe most abortions take place because the mother life's was in danger not simply as matter of after the fact birth control... And my personal favorite, God doesn't really cares since they go to heaven anyways..
By the way... Those are verbatim arguments of the other side...
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Yet you refuse to listen to any argument from them, from what I see.
Sure... It seems you believe they have an argument, even thought you claim what they do and support is barbaric...
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You simply proclaim your interpretation of the Bible and the "facts" as you claim to know them as being right.
Well, yes... Same as you, and anyone else who debate points... I don't believe too many people proclaim what they don't believe and argue from a place where they believe they are wrong...
quote:
I doubt that its your arguments they don't like (you give yourself WAY too much credit); I think its your style (just a thought).
Frankly I don't care if people who have no regard for life are upset at my view of things... I really don't... I don't care about the thoughts of people who rape children(they to have reasons/excuses for their actions) so why should I care about those who seek and or support to kill them? And I have found what bugs people the most, quoting them and making them accountable to what they post and standing firm... They want to "debate" the issue with no bloo | | |
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Like I said, all this is the truth IN YOUR VIEWS/INTERPRETATION OF GOD'S WORD! Why don't you actually go and talk to the people with different views and convince them, or at least learn where they're coming from rather than simply pass judgement as though you were God (which you clearly aren't). 
