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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 1:25:43 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I'm not taking anything you or Jhud have written as being confrontational. I actually find this to be an interesting and intellegent discussion
Thank you, Torch. Bless you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abiyah
As a result, I must be careful, because we will not be allowed to discuss whether or not Messiah set people free from the Torah in this thread, but I would challenge you to find any place in the Bible where He did that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Paul's letters. Galatians immediately comes to mind. The law was given for the time that it was intended has always been my interpretation. We cannot be justified by the law. If we could, then we would have to be subject to ALL of the law and continue the traditions from that time and obey it to the letter.
I would love to answer you, but we can't here . . . .
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 5:26:41 PM
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tomhillbilly
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I gotta go along with ps103 on this one. Which brings to light another answer to the orignal question-DECEPTION.
This im sure could lead to another topic also.
whether its from man and mans traditions or influence by satan it seems people have been deceived into seeing Gods law as no longer applicable. To this i would argue that Gods laws are meant for the betterment of everyone, today as well as when moses wrote them.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/26/2008 10:54:45 AM
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lifeisprecious
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I don't see how Pro-Choice Christians support their view on abortion when the bible says this:
One of my favorites:
Psalms 139
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
With that verse how can anyone justify aboriton:
God creates us before we ever were in our mother's womb, so are we better than God who created us in our mother's womb and what I call killing a baby that He created.
God knew we would be born.
Man has free will and make choices that are unwise. Still it is God the one that created the baby and already knew we would be born.
Do I believe we still have the right to take a baby's life even in rape or incest, no I don't. Let the baby have life and if you can't handle the situation adopt the baby out to someone that can't have a baby. Do you know how many people want to adopt in US and have to go to other countries.
I have Christian and non Christians friends that have had abortions believe me they never forget. They remember when the baby's birthday would be, how old the baby would be , what the baby would look like etc. Honestly, it is heartbreaking. Do I throw stones no, I try and give unconditonal love like God does.
With that Listen To This:
"Choose Life" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnN33ozmmIc
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/26/2008 11:49:40 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
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From: East Bay Area
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That's a great song, but it's referring to Salvation, not pregnancy.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 1:56:50 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
I accept it when it is done according to His instructions. Way too often, it is NOT done according to His instructions.
Then why didn't Christ approve of it when He had the chance?
A woman is brought before Him who is about to be stoned for committing adultry (we all know the story). Instead of telling the crowd to condem her to death (as is what the Law orders), He told them that the first among them who had committed no sin could cast the first stone. Everyone walks away. Nobody there was without sin..... except for one man. Jesus Christ. He could've thrown the first stone at this woman, and been completely within His right in the Law, but He didn't.
The Law is not equal to Christ.
She was not brought before Christ for the sake of justice, but in order to accuse and entrap Christ(John8:6)....As well she was not brought forth according to law. You can bet one of the men picking up a rock was the person she was with.. Not to mention the authority at the time were the Romans as displayed by the fact the Jew had to bring Christ to Pilate in order for Him to be put to death... Along with the two thieves who are said to have JUSTLY received their DUE REWARD for their deeds... Luke 23... The state justly putting one to death for their deeds is doing so with by the authority of whom ordained it, God... Therefore Jesus is fully on board since there is no conflict within the Trinity...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 1:57:56 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
Maybe part of the issue us that the death penalty is a set up punishment. People know that the punishment for certain crimes is the death penalty. They take that risk in getting caught. It's a penalty for a choice they made.
Abortion is not the result of something a baby decides to do that they know death is a consequence.
Yet, it doesn't make either one any more right than the other. I fail to see Christ putting someone to death for any reason; its a decision only God should be allowed to make.
God made that decision when He ordained the state to be His minster of wrath for those who do evil... Romans 13...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 2:01:42 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
I think the more pertinent question is why didn't Jesus simply say, "Execution is wrong?".
No. The pertinent question is "why didn't Christ simply aprove of the execution when he had the chance?"
He was completely within the rights of the Law that God had given the children of Israel.
You seem to forget He completely and perfectly knew the TRUE intentions of the men who brought forth the woman, and justice was not in their hearts... And since the law wasn't followed regarding the woman there was no "right" to take her life...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 2:06:51 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
I'd hardly call it a rabbit trail. I, personally, find it hypocritical in my views of Christianity that we would be so concerned with the lives of one group of people (in this case, the unborn), yet so unconcerned with another group's lives (and in some cases, even eager to see some of that latter group die).
Where is the hypocrisy in understanding that the unborn are unjustly accused and murdered and those who are put to death for their deeds are justly put to death?
quote:
Um... no, he set us free from the law. Not just the penalty.
Yet people still and rightfully deal with the consequences of their actions... Temporally(justice on earth) and eternally(God's final judgment...)
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 2:09:48 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
ROFL
Gone to start a thread to give child molesters a safe place to discuss their views and justify their beliefs.
I fail to see the humor, myself. You do realize that child molestation is illegal and abortion currently is.... and that a good number of Christians are pro-choice, however I don't know of any (if there are any) who are pro-child molestation.
You do realize that the rape and or murder of child, born or not is currently and always has been against the word of God? So the fact that some Christians are pro-choice yet not pro-child molestation is hardly a feather in anyone's cap... You think God looks upon those who support the murder of child much different than those who rape them?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 2:15:24 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
ROFL
Gone to start a thread to give child molesters a safe place to discuss their views and justify their beliefs.
I fail to see the humor, myself. You do realize that child molestation is illegal and abortion currently is.... and that a good number of Christians are pro-choice, however I don't know of any (if there are any) who are pro-child molestation.
You do realize that the rape and or murder of child, born or not is currently and always has been against the word of God? So the fact that some Christians are pro-choice yet not pro-child molestation is hardly a feather in anyone's cap... You think God looks upon those who support the murder of child much different than those who rape them?
Yes I do realize that abortion goes against God's word. Like I said before. I am pro-life and I vote pro-life. However, we can vote until the cows come home and that won't stop abortion. We need to reach out to those who are seeking or performing abortions and help them to see that abortion is wrong. We won't be able to do that with gruesome signs or video clips. Once in a while, we need to shut our mouths and open our ears.
And we won't reach anyone by comparing rape to abortion.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 2:46:53 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
Yes I do realize that abortion goes against God's word. Like I said before. I am pro-life and I vote pro-life. However, we can vote until the cows come home and that won't stop abortion.
Supporting what is right is as opposed to what is wrong is as much as about doing what one is supposed to do as it is about getting results... Doing the right thing isn't gauged by the outcome...
quote:
We need to reach out to those who are seeking or performing abortions and help them to see that abortion is wrong.
Yes we do, but we can't be double-minded in doing so... We must seek for the law and those in authority to be doing the right thing as well reaching out to people...
quote:
We won't be able to do that with gruesome signs or video clips.
Nor will sugarcoating the truth and reality of the situation or pretending that people who support murder are any better then those who rape children because murder in the womb is seen as acceptable...
quote:
Once in a while, we need to shut our mouths and open our ears.
To what? What do the folks who support abortion have to bring to the table? What "argument" do they have? Does their argument have anymore foundation in the truth than those who rape children and seek to rationalize it? The bible condemns both...
quote:
And we won't reach anyone by comparing rape to abortion.
Nor will you reach people by downplaying the seriousness of the action... Someone pointing out that some Christians are pro-choice and yet not pro-rape amounts to what? Nothing...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 4:02:14 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
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From: East Bay Area
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John - picture these scenarios:
1- A man comes to you to talk because he got his wife/girlfriend pregnant. He wants her to have an abortion. What steps would you take to convince him otherwise?
2- An abortionist comes to you and says that they want to repent. What would you advise them to do to prove that they have really repented?
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 1:59:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
John - picture these scenarios:
These scenarios are not the foundation of what is being debated here, pro-choice and Christian... Why not picture the hypocrisy of claiming Christ and supporting the murder of those who have done nothing to warrant such actions against them. That's the true issue at hand... Not really the following...
quote:
1- A man comes to you to talk because he got his wife/girlfriend pregnant. He wants her to have an abortion. What steps would you take to convince him otherwise?
If the man was a believer I would implore him to show justification for such an action with the word of God... If he went ahead with it I would implore to seek repentance and hope re realized that not taking care of his family renders him less than the infidel... (1 Timothy 5:8 )No small thing... People do not realize the seriousness of this and its ramifications...
If the man was not a believer I would mentioned man's golden rule and ask how he can honestly not apply it... Beyond that, I would pray that God would spare the child's life...
quote:
2- An abortionist comes to you and says that they want to repent.
The desire to repent starts with a clear understanding of what is being repented of is wrong... So with that truth I would expound on the fact that abortion is wrong and why.... And that the action must cease in order for their to be sincere repentance.
quote:
What would you advise them to do to prove that they have really repented?
Stop murdering unborn children... Just like I would say the rapist must stop raping order to prove they have repented...
Paul showed his repentance by not continuing in his old ways... Hunting down Christians...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 7:45:38 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Where is the hypocrisy in understanding that the unborn are unjustly accused and murdered and those who are put to death for their deeds are justly put to death?
Because the death penalty is not justice; its blood thirst and revenge, and hypocritical to the teachings of Christ.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 7:53:15 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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quote:
You do realize that the rape and or murder of child, born or not is currently and always has been against the word of God? So the fact that some Christians are pro-choice yet not pro-child molestation is hardly a feather in anyone's cap...
However, abortion is legal according to our government and the governments of many other countries. And remember what Romans says about the government. So many people justify the death penalty with Romans stating that because the government allows it and the government is established by God, we should just let that go. However, they fail to realize that abortion is legalized by the government, too. So we rebel against the government with one thing, but support it with another. Seems hypocritical to Paul's teachings.
quote:
You think God looks upon those who support the murder of child much different than those who rape them?
According to some people on here, yes. Once again, the government says that one is legal and one is not. And while I agree that both should be illegal, well.... that's just not the case.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 7:57:59 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
You seem to forget He completely and perfectly knew the TRUE intentions of the men who brought forth the woman, and justice was not in their hearts... And since the law wasn't followed regarding the woman there was no "right" to take her life...
No, I don't. I just interpret it differntly than apparently you and other people. Remember, the Bible is open to interpretation, not just fundamental interpretations.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 11:01:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
Where is the hypocrisy in understanding that the unborn are unjustly accused and murdered and those who are put to death for their deeds are justly put to death?
Because the death penalty is not justice; its blood thirst and revenge, and hypocritical to the teachings of Christ.
God's word doesn't call the death penalty revenge, nor does any teaching of Christ... If so God is unjust...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 11:12:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
However, abortion is legal according to our government and the governments of many other countries.
That doesn't excuse those who partake in it..
quote:
And remember what Romans says about the government. So many people justify the death penalty with Romans stating that because the government allows it and the government is established by God, we should just let that go.
It's not that the government allows it, but that God commands it...
quote:
However, they fail to realize that abortion is legalized by the government, too. So we rebel against the government with one thing, but support it with another. Seems hypocritical to Paul's teachings.
Abortion is the unjust taking of life, while the state justly putting someone to death for their deeds(Luke 23) is justice... The bible is clear that one is to obey God first you mention of hypocrisy is unfounded... There is no teaching that one is to submit to the government as the expense of what is right according to God's word. In fact Peter said we should obey God over men...
quote:
According to some people on here, yes. Once again, the government says that one is legal and one is not. And while I agree that both should be illegal, well.... that's just not the case.
The government doesn't determine right or wrong, God does... The government declaring that murder in the womb is a right doesn't grant relief to anyone since it's clearly against God's word. So it stands that God looks upon those who support the murder of child no different than those who rape them. And those who claims Christ and believe it's ok to murder in the womb are that much more accountable...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/27/2008 11:18:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
You seem to forget He completely and perfectly knew the TRUE intentions of the men who brought forth the woman, and justice was not in their hearts... And since the law wasn't followed regarding the woman there was no "right" to take her life...
No, I don't. I just interpret it differntly than apparently you and other people. Remember, the Bible is open to interpretation, not just fundamental interpretations.
If that's the case one could use the same verses to make a case that alien life resides on the other side of Pluto...
If you can point out that those who brought forth the woman did so according to the law I for one would like to hear it... You do know that there is a process, correct? Verse 6 plainly states they brought her to Jesus in order to accuse Him. If justice was the issue where was the man?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 8:44:59 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
If you can point out that those who brought forth the woman did so according to the law I for one would like to hear it... You do know that there is a process, correct?
Yes, I know there is a process. Nothing in the Bible states that they didn't follow it, either. That argument is simply guess-work.
quote:
God's word doesn't call the death penalty revenge, nor does any teaching of Christ... If so God is unjust...
Well, that's your view. I see Christ's teachings of showing mercy to our enemies and so forth differently.
But if we're going to put people to death for their offenses, shouldn't we execute ALL the people the Bible says we should who break the law?
quote:
Abortion is the unjust taking of life,
Some would argue with you that it is even the taking of a life. I suggest you find them and take this argument up with them. There's a whole thread of people with a differing opinion on this, yet nobody seems to want to ask any of them any questions; just condemn them and preach to the choir. Interesting.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 10:20:44 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
However, abortion is legal according to our government and the governments of many other countries. And remember what Romans says about the government. So many people justify the death penalty with Romans stating that because the government allows it and the government is established by God, we should just let that go. However, they fail to realize that abortion is legalized by the government, too. So we rebel against the government with one thing, but support it with another. Seems hypocritical to Paul's teachings.
Actually, you have this argument wrong; Christians support the death penalty because God sanctioned the government to do it in the case of certain crimes, and so we as Christians shouldn’t oppose what God has sanctioned.
And God never, ever calls us to support actions of the government which specifically abrogates His commands, like murder. We see this principle put into practice in Acts, when the apostles, though told by the authorities not to preach Christ, continued to do so because they knew they had to obey God rather than man.
Abortion is murder, that is the intentional taking of an innocent human life; Christians can never obey God and support abortion.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 10:22:28 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Some would argue with you that it is even the taking of a life. I suggest you find them and take this argument up with them. There's a whole thread of people with a differing opinion on this, yet nobody seems to want to ask any of them any questions; just condemn them and preach to the choir. Interesting.
Actually, in that thread it has been made clear one can't question them unless one agrees with them; they are free to come here and explain themselves if they are confident of their positions.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 11:00:37 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Actually, you have this argument wrong; Christians support the death penalty because God sanctioned the government to do it in the case of certain crimes, and so we as Christians shouldn’t oppose what God has sanctioned.
You mean SOME CHRISTIANS. Not all Christians support the death penalty. Please don't lump all of us together in that category. There are those of us who see it as barbarric and unnecessary. It has a number of flaws, including the potential of putting to death those who are not actually guilty and simply being a form of vengence (regardless of how some of you interpret it).
Also, we don't execute ALL of the people that the old Jewish Law states we should; we select those who we do, now days. So we're allowed to not follow the old Jewish Law exactly; simply pick-and-choose the parts we want to. If we're going to do this, shouldn't we be executing all those who the Law says we must when they violate it?
Apparently not, which is part of what leads me to believe we shouldn't be executing any of them. Especially when there is always the hope that they can truly learn the error of their ways and turn to Christ.
quote:
Actually, in that thread it has been made clear one can't question them unless one agrees with them; they are free to come here and explain themselves if they are confident of their positions.
I thought I explained that to the mods.  It was supposed to be changed.
I didn't want people NOT asking them questions; What I didn't want was the self-righteous shoving their own interpretations of Scripture down their throats and telling them that they were wrong in their views. Unfortunately, the latter is what they will experience in this thread, as I feel other posters have already made clear.
This said, you could always ask those people questions via PM, and learn their views and get their answers to your questions. There's nothing against that, unless they reply to you that they don't want to speak about it over PM's.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/28/2008 11:29:07 AM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 11:04:23 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Christians can never obey God and support abortion.
Actually, they can. Many do, and they're better at backing up their views than I am since I'm not one of them. You should find those who do and ask them of their views. Like I said before, I created that other thread so those people could express their views to people who don't understand them.
Its comments like that that make those people not want to share their views with other people on this forum. Not because that automatically makes you right, but because many others will simply rain down their judgement and criticism of them without even listening to opposing arguments.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 11/28/2008 11:11:22 AM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/28/2008 7:14:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Yes, I know there is a process. Nothing in the Bible states that they didn't follow it, either. That argument is simply guess-work.
Where is the man? The woman didn't commit the sin by herself... You are one operating on guess work, since it's clear the folks brought her forth to accuse Christ... Verse six states that...
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Well, that's your view. I see Christ's teachings of showing mercy to our enemies and so forth differently.
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Therefore you believe Christ is at odds with His very word...
Some would argue with you that it is even the taking of a life.
Of course, some people believe sex with children is ok and would argue so...
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I suggest you find them and take this argument up with them.
You are the one using the government makes it legal argument...
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There's a whole thread of people with a differing opinion on this, yet nobody seems to want to ask any of them any questions; just condemn them and preach to the choir. Interesting.
Those who murder condemn themselves...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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