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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:27:36 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
Also, I am against murder with every cell of my being, but there are times when killing is necessary. Unfortunately.
I can agree that there are times when killing is necessary. For example, God was with the Israelites when they went to war for the Promised Land and obviously that means that there was killing (and lots of it).
I don't agree, though, that this is one of those times.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:31:17 PM
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TorchHeart
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Or it could lessen their motivation to seek repentance under the illusion they will have a long life and can repent later, as many are wont to do.
Really? I guess that all depends on who ministers to them, or if anyone ministers to them at all. Tell me... have you or anyone you know ever done prison ministry? I've seen many people repent from their sins and accept God while in prison.
quote:
Either way, you are accusing God of seeking 'primitive vengence'; God is neither primitive nor vengeful.
No, I'm accusing PEOPLE of using God to justify seeking primitive vengence.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:39:16 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
I think the more pertinent question is why didn't Jesus simply say, "Execution is wrong?".
No. The pertinent question is "why didn't Christ simply aprove of the execution when he had the chance?"
He was completely within the rights of the Law that God had given the children of Israel.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:56:44 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Really? I guess that all depends on who ministers to them, or if anyone ministers to them at all. Tell me... have you or anyone you know ever done prison ministry? I've seen many people repent from their sins and accept God while in prison.
Certainly. I have had a former prisoner stay with my family until they were on their feet. But dying at a particular time cannot thwart the ability of God to work in some one's life, and I think one of the most frequent excuses most humans give for delaying repentance is the thought they can 'do it later'.
quote:
No, I'm accusing PEOPLE of using God to justify seeking primitive vengence.
Which may or may nothave anything to do with a particular punishment.
quote:
No. The pertinent question is "why didn't Christ simply aprove of the execution when he had the chance?"
He was completely within the rights of the Law that God had given the children of Israel.
Actually, the particular circumstance was not all in accordance with God clearly commanded in terms of a trial, witnesses, and convictions; and notably it was a case of adultery that only had one participant!
Hardly a good case by which to negate the clear command of Christ for over a thousand years at that point.
But this is all a diversion - nothing you have said here in any way justifies the legalized murder of children.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 4:04:07 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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quote:
Hardly a good case by which to negate the clear command of Christ for over a thousand years at that point
But this is all a diversion - nothing you have said here in any way justifies the legalized murder of children.
Actually, its an excellent one in my eyes and that of many others. But you are correct. This is all diversion for another topic.
And I'm not trying to justify the murder of children, nor have I ever.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 4:39:24 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Then why didn't Christ approve of it when He had the chance?
A woman is brought before Him who is about to be stoned for committing adultry (we all know the story). Instead of telling the crowd to condem her to death (as is what the Law orders), He told them that the first among them who had committed no sin could cast the first stone. Everyone walks away. Nobody there was without sin..... except for one man. Jesus Christ. He could've thrown the first stone at this woman, and been completely within His right in the Law, but He didn't.
The Law is not equal to Christ.
Torch, I know that it is hard for many of us who were raised in the church to wrap our heads around the fact that Messiah was always hands-on in the giving of the Word, in creation, etc., even though we say that He always was and that He was there at the creation, etc. But think it through: Messiah was Creator. He was there and hands-on in the creation. When the Torah was given, He gave it.
No one can see G-d and live, yet many saw G-d and lived. How did that happen? It was Messiah. He was on the mountain, giving the Torah to Moses, because Moses saw Him and lived. Moses was with Him on that mountain many days. Messiah was part of the group that met with Abraham and promised the birth of Isaac. Messiah did not stay quiet until when He learned language after His birth in Bethlehem: He was active, present, verbal, hands-on. He didn't need a particular chance after His birth. Just think it through, using Scripture.
Regarding the woman who was brought to Him for judgment of her adultery, He followed written Torah to the letter: He could not condemn her without the man being presented to Him for judgment as well. There needed to be direct witnesses to the act as well as both persons.
Messiah did Torah, doing it to the very letter, showing us how it should be done. When people accused Him of not doing Torah, they were false accusers in every case.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 6:05:00 PM
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tomhillbilly
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some good points here folks, thanx for responding.
In the beiginning did God not say that children are a blessing, and to go forth and multiply?
Im not a old testament expert but did not moses command that people be put to death(publically) for the crimes of murder and rape?
im sure we would all agree that the purpose of Gods laws and jesus' teachings is for all peoples betterment and welfare. The purposes of sapital punishment are these- to remove these people that present a danger to society, thereby protecting the innocent. Also by setting a public example that people will fear and these things will cease happening among you. i gotta agree with jhud that i dont see the relationship between these things and an innocent unborn life.
It seems also that God wants them sent along to him for judgement, and even that there is no forgiveness for murder and rape while in the flesh. I have to admit also that i am skeptical about prisoners repenting while in prison. I question whether they are truly repentant or just sorry they got caught. It seems for starters that everyone in prison is innocent anyway, 9/10 are born again and the other one is found again. This seems like part the making parole process like politicians all claim they are christian and have a profound faith to get elected.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 6:18:04 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Tom, there is forgiveness for all sins other than that against the H Spirit! Murder is forgiveable, as is rape and the murder of an unborn child.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 6:36:43 PM
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tomhillbilly
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oh yes im not doubting this covaan, only whether this forgiveness can happen in the flesh, if God truly wants certain offenders sent to him for judgement
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 8:50:44 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Torch, I know that it is hard for many of us who were raised in the church to wrap our heads around the fact that Messiah was always hands-on in the giving of the Word, in creation, etc., even though we say that He always was and that He was there at the creation, etc. But think it through: Messiah was Creator. He was there and hands-on in the creation. When the Torah was given, He gave it.
Actually, no. Its not hard for me to grasp any of this. In fact, it actually comes quite easily for me
quote:
Regarding the woman who was brought to Him for judgment of her adultery, He followed written Torah to the letter: He could not condemn her without the man being presented to Him for judgment as well. There needed to be direct witnesses to the act as well as both persons.
Messiah did Torah, doing it to the very letter, showing us how it should be done. When people accused Him of not doing Torah, they were false accusers in every case.
It doesn't matter. He still would've been within the letter of the law to condem her, too. But He didn't.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 8:17:30 AM
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P31W
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quote:
No one is questioning God. I'm questioning the actions of those who claim that killing another human being is God's will, regardless of who that person is. Especially when the example Christ sets for us is in opposition to what is being promoted.
Jesus said he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. (sword in NT times means instrument of death)
God told us "though" Paul that if we have done anything that "deserves" the death penalty then we are to accept that.
God told us "through" Paul that it's the government's responsibility to carry out the death penalty. (sword)
This can all be found in the New Testament.
God didn't inspire "only" the words of Jesus to be recorded. He inspired "all" the written words of scripture.
You may also want to note that God never set up a "prison system". God in his wisdom "knew" what he was doing. You were punished, paid restitution or you were put to death. No prison system in the promised land until "after" the Children of Isreal were taken off into captivity and "they brought back with them" the pagan system of prisons.
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However, abortion is legal, and ye we rebel against them for considering it legal. We can have it both ways apparently, depending on who's life we deem worthy. Almost as if we were God.
It appears to me that you have played God and deemed the unborn child's life unworthy. It also appears to me that "you" have decided that shedding innocent blood "as God calls it" is an act not worth of death. God however said that he "hates" people who do this and they "are" worthy of death.
A simply study of scripture will reveal what God says on the matter. What "we" humans decide is right or wrong does not mean it is. God says who is right and who is wrong. Who we are to protect and who we are to allow the government to put to death.
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He still would've been within the letter of the law to condem her, too. But He didn't.
This is false. The letter of the law demanded that both the man and the woman be brought before the Priest (these acted as both religious leaders and the government official under the law until they people rejected God as their King and demanded a human king) and the one or ones who "witnessed" the act were to condem them both and was to "cast the first stone".
Someone was trying to "trick" Jesus into breaking the law.
The people who brought the woman before Jesus knew they were not without sin in what they were trying to get "Jesus" to do....break God's perfect, good and holy law.
quote:
No, I'm accusing PEOPLE of using God to justify seeking primitive vengence.
We are not saying that the "people" should take matters into their own hands. Rather the laws should be in place so that murders can be put to death and the innocent protected from their evil deeds.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/25/2008 9:14:03 AM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 9:29:41 AM
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P31W
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I said instrument of death. And yes Jesus was taking about "death penalty". Had Peter killed the Roman the government would have been well with in it's right to take Peter's life.
As Paul said if I have done anything "deserving death" then I will accept that.
quote:
Also, your use of the word "sword" in the New Testement isn't right. It doesn't refer to the death penalty.
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WOW! Where did I deem the unborn child's life unworthy? You're funny.
When you try to give people a "safe place" to discuss and possibly convince others to "change their minds" on the topic of abortion on a world wide web and you want to give them a voice to "justify" their beliefs.
When you try to take this thread down a rabbit trail of capitol punishment instead of keeping it on abortion.
quote:
Really? So if its so false, why didn't Christ tell them to go and do things right in accordance with the Law (which He was about to set us all free from, anyway?).
Yes really. What you said was false. You don't understand or know scripture well enough to make certain claims about things contained within the scripture.
They were under Roman rule....the Jews were no longer allowed to carry out the law in the perfect way God said for them to. They were under Roman rule because of their own sin.
quote:
which He was about to set us all free from, anyway?).
He set us free from the penalty of the law. He did not set us free to sin.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/25/2008 9:40:52 AM >
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 9:58:07 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
When you try to give people a "safe place" to discuss and possibly convince others to "change their minds" on the topic of abortion on a world wide web and you want to give them a voice to "justify" their beliefs.
Wow. Who's playing God now?
I prefer to give people the opportunity to express themselves and their views instead of simply running them into the ground for beliefs that are different than mine (which is a practice that is all to common on this board). If you want to convince people that their views are wrong, its best to first understand why they believe that their views are right. Who knows? You might learn something, and that could lead to discussion and understanding and even conversion, rather than arguing and hardening of hearts and giving the appearance that one side is a bunch of wicked heathens and the other as being self-righteous and ignorant.
Am I to assume that you see it as a better practice to simply declare that you and your interpretation of the Bible is right, and that's that? No body has any right to suggest differently?
quote:
When you try to take this thread down a rabbit trail of capitol punishment instead of keeping it on abortion.
I'd hardly call it a rabbit trail. I, personally, find it hypocritical in my views of Christianity that we would be so concerned with the lives of one group of people (in this case, the unborn), yet so unconcerned with another group's lives (and in some cases, even eager to see some of that latter group die). Thus far, Jhud and Covaan_Meshuga have engaged me in a worthy and interesting debate in this matter attempting to justify this practice which I see as equally as wrong as abortion.
But note that, even though I disagree with Jhud and Covaan_Meshuga, I'm letting them express their views rather than simply telling them that they're wrong. Again, its called discussion... and its an attempt to learn another person's views via debate.
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Yes really. What you said was false. You don't understand or know scripture well enough to make certain claims about things contained within the scripture.
No, what I said was correct. I do understand and know scripture and history well enough to make these claims. Remember, INTERPRETATIONS can differ.
quote:
He set us free from the penalty of the law. He did not set us free to sin.
Um... no, he set us free from the law. Not just the penalty.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 10:04:42 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
When you try to give people a "safe place" to discuss and possibly convince others to "change their minds" on the topic of abortion on a world wide web and you want to give them a voice to "justify" their beliefs.
I prefer to give people the opportunity to express themselves and their views instead of simply running them into the ground for beliefs that are different than mine (which is a practice that is all to common on this board). If you want to convince people that their views are wrong, its best to first understand why they believe that their views are right. Who knows? You might learn something, and that could lead to discussion and understanding and even conversion, rather than arguing and hardening of hearts and giving the appearance that one side is a bunch of wicked heathens and the other as being self-righteous and ignorant.
Abortion is not a salvation issue, so I do agree with you.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 10:05:52 AM
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P31W
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ROFL
Gone to start a thread to give child molesters a safe place to discuss their views and justify their beliefs.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 10:11:31 AM
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Roberta_
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You know, comments like that are why I didn't participate in Torch's thread.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 10:17:18 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
You know, comments like that are why I didn't participate in Torch's thread.
I'm sorry if I offended you Roberta_. I wish you'd reconsider.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 10:42:26 AM
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Roberta_
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It wasn't you Torch. I was p31's comparing pro-abortionists to child molesters. Trolling is unappealing to the troll and unproductive to a good discussion.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 12:42:42 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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Torch, I don't write to be confrontational to you but because I believe you are a thinking person. As a result, I must be careful, because we will not be allowed to discuss whether or not Messiah set people free from the Torah in this thread, but I would challenge you to find any place in the Bible where He did that.
So if Messiah was here, and He is the Word made flesh, does that mean that He is just the last 1/3 of the Word or the Word -- the giver of the whole Word. He knows Torah because He gave it. He knows that He could not condemn the woman taken in adultery without condemning the man. He follows the Written Torah but not always the Oral Torah, because too often, the Oral Torah went beyond His intent in the Torah.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 1:13:47 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
As a result, I must be careful, because we will not be allowed to discuss whether or not Messiah set people free from the Torah in this thread, but I would challenge you to find any place in the Bible where He did that.
Paul's letters. Galatians immediately comes to mind. The law was given for the time that it was intended has always been my interpretation. We cannot be justified by the law. If we could, then we would have to be subject to ALL of the law and continue the traditions from that time and obey it to the letter.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/25/2008 1:17:26 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1979
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Torch, I don't write to be confrontational to you but because I believe you are a thinking person.
I'm not taking anything you or Jhud have written as being confrontational. I actually find this to be an interesting and intellegent discussion
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WOW! Where did I deem the unborn child's life unworthy? You're funny. 
