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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 3:01:51 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
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Shabbat shalom, Peter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Did you even read what I wrote?
Yes, I did.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Tares, the children of the wicked one PLANTED IN THE KINGDOM WITHIN THE FIRST 1000 YEARS OF THE MESSIAH'S KINGDOM, CANNOT be "standing behind pulpits in churches and on television!" It's the WRONG AGE!
So there are no false teachers among us? There are none that claim to belong to Christ that are, in reality, deceivers?
Sure there are false teachers among us, but this parable is not about "false teachers"; IT'S NOT ABOUT OUR TIME PERIOD AT ALL! IT'S A PARABLE ABOUT THE KINGDOM, and therefore, the KINGDOM AGE! Not this age, but the age to come when Yeshua` physically, literally reigns from haMelekh Daviyd's throne in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el!
A good, biblical definition of "Kingdom" will help you.
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 3:54:17 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, ta_mosquito.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Retro - so you think all the "the Kingdom of God is like..." parables are about the Millennium? Wouldn't (couldn't) the wheat and tares be sown even now?
It is ... possible; however, not probable, imo. We have many other passages that speak to both the events and the wisdom of this age in which we live. All the parables of Matthew 13 (with the exception of the first), are about the Kingdom. Consider the parable of the mustard seed. We have seen a similar parable in the prophecy of Dani'el; remember the "stone cut out of the mountain without hands" which struck the feet of the image that N'vukhadnetsar saw? Remember that it grew until it "became a mountain and filled the whole earth?" (Dan. 2)
This, too, is talking about God's Kingdom in the end of the age ruled by God's Representative, Yeshua` the Messiah!
Review the wording:
Daniel 2:35, 44-45
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
...
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV
It is my opinion that because we are seeing growth both in this vision and in the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven in Matt. 13 that the Kingdom's growth IN THE MILLENNIUM will take time and will grow throughout that period. A thousand years is a very long time to us (even if it's only a day to God); what can we expect to happen during that time? I believe that these parables are one of the few passages in Scripture that give us some insight into the events of the Millennium.
I believe that the parable of the mustard seed is about the Kingdom's physical growth while the parable of the leaven is about the Kingdom's influential and political growth.
I know that many see leaven as a type of sin, but I believe this is an error for THIS parable. Look at the words of the parable of the leaven:
Matt 13:33
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV
"The "kingdom of heaven" (or the "Kingdom from the sky") is LIKE UNTO leaven! Would anyone really think that the element could be substituted based on a type of sin? Would anyone dare to substitute and read "The kingdom of heaven is like unto SIN?" We must be careful not to allow typology (the study of types) to degenerate into typolatry (the WORSHIP of types)!
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 4:20:50 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This is a parable about THE KINGDOM, and that does NOT mean the "Church!!"
I have no problem with your word-for-word translation, but this conclusion of yours is totally your own, which is to say, it is not the truth.
In a way, the parable of the wheat and tares typify this Age and it speaks of the coming Harvest.
Right now we are seeing a division among people.
Right now wickedness is on the increase.
Right now we are beginning to see how the Church is being oppressed.
Soon we will "handed over."
We are the wheat.
The wicked are the tares.
The Harvest is when Jesus comes again and gathers us up.
Then the wicked who have been collected (different word in the Greek than gathered) are burned in the field.
This is a perfect sequence-of-events depiction of the end-time Harvest.
After the midpoint abomination, there will be Great Tribulation - followed by an unexpected sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord.
On that Day, Jesus will gather us up. - Mt 24:15-31.
On the second half of that two-day Day: Jesus, aided by the first Trumpet's fire will burn the tares in the field so to speak as God's Wrath begins.
Meanwhile, we are safe in the "barn" of Heaven as the Great Multitude.
Likewise in the Seal chronology of Rev 4-11, the seventh Seal allows the Scroll to be opened and the "desolations God has decreed" go forth.
This is an interesting scenario; however, it is not a "perfect sequence-of-events depiction." For one thing, it's out of order! You've got the "wheat" being gathered BEFORE the "tares!"
Furthermore, the meteorite shower as revealed from the opening of the sixth seal to the sounding of the fifth shofar (trumpet) is NOT the same as the Global Fire which according to II Peter 3 and Revelation 20 occurs AFTER the Millennium, and it is the Global Fire that "burns the tares" (Great White Throne Judgment and the Second Death).
WE are not even among the "wheat!" There will be a THOUSAND YEARS in which the nations of the earth are still extant! People in their natural bodies will still be living during that time. Children will still be born and decisions will still have to be made. We learn this from the prophecies of Isaiah and Ezekiel.
Keep working on it! There are a LOT of prophecies and parables to synchronize and harmonize. I've been doing it from scratch for the last 32 years! And, it's hard to do if you listen to the constant barrage of the standard rhetoric of the typical positions. Keep reading and re-reading the prophecies on your own! May the Lord bless you in your endeavors!
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 5:43:02 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
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From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
So, Saint, in your opinion, who repopulates the earth during the 1,000 year Messianic Kingdom that brings about the end of this age?
It's not a matter of my opinion, but what I can discern from the Bible.
In Zechariah, which speaks to Israel about this time, we see two types of people.
First in Zechariah 12:10 we see the Jewish people coming to grips with Jesus the Servant Messiah whom they had pierced as the Messiah King. This is the beginning of the Millennium.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Now, without any linear aspect to his book overall (indeed, like Isaiah, Zechariah intersperses bits and snatches of visions like a jigsaw puzzle in pieces at times in his narratives) we also know that not all the Jews make it in verses 13:8-9. These verses actually precede the one cited above.
ZEC 13:8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
ZEC 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, `They are my people,'
and they will say, `The LORD is our God.' "
Now we know from the twin parallel accounts within Revelation chapter 12 that God will protect some of Israel for one half of the one 'seven.' This is the Remnant.
These are the Jews in Judah who flee before the midpoint invasion of the King of the North when he comes and encamps around the Holy Mountain (the Temple Mount) on the eve of the midpoint abomination being erected in the rebuilt Temple. This invasion also begins the Gog/Magog war in my estimation. This is told to us by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.
There are also another set of Jews who flee from Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord according to Zechariah.
ZEC 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
This happens on the Day of the Lord.
Furthermore, for the second group of people, we know from Zechariah that other people will survive the desolations God has decreed which fall during the latter half of the one 'seven' in Zechariah 8:23.
ZEC 8:20 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, `Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.' 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him."
ZEC 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, `Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "
Now I can by aligning specific and unique events merge multiple and parallel accounts of the end-times into a sequence-of-events.
The sequence of events which the Bible presents in its various linear narratives (Daniel, Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, and 1st and 2nd Thessalonians being major passages, chapters, and books with which to build this single timeline) allows me to present a total picture of the Day of the Lord.
Needless to say without posting pages upon pages of material I have already written, the fighting Jesus does on the Day of the Lord in Zechariah 14 will be accomplished on the second half of the two-day Day of the Lord (which follows the pattern of Rosh ha-Shanah).
So to answer your question:
The people who go into the Millennium are two:
1. The Remant third of Israel from Judah and Jerusalem
2. The meek who inherit the earth from the other nations.
Only a few (wicked) people survive the end-times. These people are not the proud ones who propel the world to destruction. But Isaiah tells us that man will be as rare as the gold of Ophir.
Oddly enough, the wicked leaders who are in the world today have no problem with drastically reducing the earth's population to only 500 million. They would have no problem with killing a little more than 6 billion souls. This is their plan for paradise on earth. It is part of the earth-first secular humanism movement. They have no part of Heaven.
Not to complicate matters, there are additional Jews who are resurrected to an eartly existence. They will be added to the two groups listed above so that prophecy in Ezekiel will be fulfilled just as Paul indicated that ALL of Israel will be saved.
I see a few problems with the viewpoint above. First, the passage of Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) chapter 8 is about people who come with the Jews to the King in Isra'el once He is established on His throne. See, it is by the command of the King that no Gentiles are allowed into His Kingdom anymore! The Times of the Gentiles (i.e. being in Yerushalayim) is OVER! Thus, the nations will NOT be allowed to overrun His Kingdom anymore! Tourism will basically be a thing of the past. That's not to say that audiences with the King will not be allowed, but they will have to be sponsored!
The other point is that there will be some people, some nations, that don't know the LORD! They will also be in the Kingdom as they were not involved in the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), the Mountain of Megiddo. They were not among those who mistreated Isra'el or the Gentile believers.
Yeshua` will be a King over Isra'el and a King over the kings (King of kings) of tributary nations right away; however, life goes on, and it's amazing how fast we as a people forget people of notariety. Fame is fleeting. That's why it will still be important to glorify the Lord! We must continue to make Him famous! But, there will be kingdoms who leaders, like the kings and queens who came to HaMelekh Shlomo (the King Solomon), will come to the King of Isra'el, Yeshua` the Messiah Eloheinu for His wisdom and advice.
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 7:07:12 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This is an interesting scenario; however, it is not a "perfect sequence-of-events depiction." For one thing, it's out of order! You've got the "wheat" being gathered BEFORE the "tares!"
Oh really?
Let's see why you might say that.
Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
On a superficial first-look of a flawed translation, it would seem that you're right, but in reality I did not get the order of the "gathering" incorrect.
Let's look at a more modern translation which does not make the same mistake of translating as "gather" two totally different Greek verbs and thus confusing the action as being the same; it is not.
"First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."
The tares are not gathered, but collected, syllego (4816); from the prime word sun (4862) which means with, together and lego (3004) which means to say or call.
The nominal gathering which is depicted for the wheat with synago (4862) which means: to lead together.
The best sense of syllego (in contrast to synago) is: to collect in order to carry off - Thayer's Greek Lexicon.
The tares are NOT led together!
The tares are collected; they are in the same place; there is a flourishing of them.
THEN the wheat is led together off to the barn of Heaven.
THEN the tares are burned in the field of this world.
Sorry, thanks for the constructive criticism, but I did get it right and your "correction" is in error.
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 7:25:04 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Furthermore, the meteorite shower as revealed from the opening of the sixth seal to the sounding of the fifth shofar (trumpet) is NOT the same as the Global Fire which according to II Peter 3 and Revelation 20 occurs AFTER the Millennium, and it is the Global Fire that "burns the tares" (Great White Throne Judgment and the Second Death).
Having constructed a whole timeline out of the sequence-of-events as depicted in end-time prophecy, all I can say here is that you are confusing a good many things.
2nd Peter 3:7 and 3:10 do not proclaim that all the earth is destroyed by fire which happens at the end of the Millennium, but laid bare.
Indeed from an observer's true point of view, if everything he sees in a vision includes fire, such a statement would be true - from his perspective.
Burning a third of the earth would include a lot of earth. Indeed, for one person, it might be as far as the eye can see.
Furthermore, what Peter describes as elements on fire is now known to be true: fission and fusion literally "burn" elements.
It is not the "Global Fire" which you are making up here as a way of making your assignment of the wheat and tares happen after the Millennium which burns the tares -
- but the first Trumpet of the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) which only go forth when all the Seals sealing the Scroll have been broken, the Scroll can be opened, and those desolations which God has written so as to store what He has decreed - can go forth!
This literally happens on the second half of the two-day Day of the Lord.
The first half of the Day of the Lord sees all the events depicted with the sixth Seal happen
- these signs culminate with the Son of Man coming on the clouds to gather the wheat.
- they return to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude.
The second half of the Day of the Lord sees fire raking the Earth, burning a full third of it!
- smoke from that fire envelops the earth
- blood comes two battles Jesus fights on that Day.
The two parts of the Day of the Lord exactly match the parable of the wheat and tares.
Fire, smoke and blood are all used to cleanse the Land of Israel - to lay it bare for it is upon Israel that God will fashion the anvil upon which to smash the nations (North, South, and East) whom He brings to Armageddon at the end of the one 'seven.'
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 7:33:16 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I see a few problems with the viewpoint above. First, the passage of Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) chapter 8 is about people who come with the Jews to the King in Isra'el once He is established on His throne.
Who was this King of Israel?
When did this ever happen when Israel was a nation?
There was no earthly King to whom the world gave hommage.
It will be the Messiah King of Jesus!
This has never happened in all the history of Israel despite all the miracles with which God has blessed her.
The passage I quoted refers to the Millennium.
Again, Zechariah has a lot of end-time and Millennium references in his prophecy. He does not take a strictly linear order, but intersperses his visions within a narrative. Zechariah 8:20-23 is but one of those examples.
I dismiss your criticism as having been fulfilled because it simply has never come to pass.
Nor do I think it will with the wicked world of today; the world is simply not going to turn from their ways in the majority.
No, this is a Millennium reference for the meek who have gone through the one 'seven' and have seen what the mighty God of Israel can do and they finally get it.
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/23/2008 11:17:10 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I see a few problems with the viewpoint above. First, the passage of Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) chapter 8 is about people who come with the Jews to the King in Isra'el once He is established on His throne.
Who was this King of Israel?
When did this ever happen when Israel was a nation?
There was no earthly King to whom the world gave hommage.
It will be the Messiah King of Jesus!
This has never happened in all the history of Israel despite all the miracles with which God has blessed her.
The passage I quoted refers to the Millennium.
Again, Zechariah has a lot of end-time and Millennium references in his prophecy. He does not take a strictly linear order, but intersperses his visions within a narrative. Zechariah 8:20-23 is but one of those examples.
I dismiss your criticism as having been fulfilled because it simply has never come to pass.
Nor do I think it will with the wicked world of today; the world is simply not going to turn from their ways in the majority.
No, this is a Millennium reference for the meek who have gone through the one 'seven' and have seen what the mighty God of Israel can do and they finally get it.
Okay, I've studied your responses and my responses, and I think I've come up with the misunderstanding--MY misunderstanding: When you said, "Furthermore, for the second group of people, we know from Zechariah that other people will survive the desolations God has decreed which fall during the latter half of the one 'seven' in Zechariah 8:23," I thought you meant that the passage in Zech. 8:23 was during "the latter half of the one 'seven!'"
LOL! ROFL! I thought you meant that these "other people" were latching hold of the tsi-tsis of the Jews DURING "the latter half of the one 'seven!'" Not during the Millennium! See, I believe I was reading your last sentence wrongly.
No, you're right and that's what I believe as well. We don't always communicate, but I believe we're pretty much in agreement.
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/23/2008 11:21:00 PM
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SonicStudent
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Hi Retro, blessings to you my friend. Always love reading your studies. How are you?
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/24/2008 6:16:50 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
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Hi Retro, i'm ok thanks. Had a bad week last week, but things are looking up, Yay. And yes, still studying away lol, enjoying seeing our Lord Jesus all over the old testament. I love messianic fulfilled prophecy.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/24/2008 7:16:30 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Sorry Roy...didn't know you had a broken ankle...we pray you're back on your feet very soon. Should do wonders for your studies.
Had my knee replaced last Dec and I'm good today but being laid up is a bummer.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/24/2008 7:52:42 PM
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SonicStudent
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God must have wanted you both all to himself for a while! LOL, no but seriously, hope you both get fully recovered.
Blessings
Sonic
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/25/2008 12:02:57 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
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From: Florida
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Shalom, Sonic and Bob.
Thanks! Yes, this has been a wonderful retreat into God's Word! Oh, sure. I've watched some movies (like the Lord of the Rings trilogy, extended version, in its entirety, Armageddon, and Deep Impact among many others), watched some old shows I like (such as Giligan's Island and Gomer Pyle USMC and newer ones, too, like Smallville), but I've also read many of the prophecies in their entirety, as well! Have you ever had a chance to read...say...Zechariah in a single sitting? Take a version that is easy to read and just read it. Don't try to see how it fits into eschatology; just read it and enjoy it! I personally like the Complete Jewish Bible, but whatever you will read is the right version for you! It's neat how it will make sense in itself without explanation!
Roy
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/25/2008 12:18:53 PM
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SonicStudent
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Hi retro,
I love those extended Lord of the rings! - Anyway, it's funny, I try to read books in the bible from start to finish, but always 'see something' and so cross ref, and end up somewhere else. But i'll give it another go on Zechariah, thanks.
Blessings Sonic
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/27/2008 10:13:20 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Sonic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
Hi retro,
I love those extended Lord of the rings! - Anyway, it's funny, I try to read books in the bible from start to finish, but always 'see something' and so cross ref, and end up somewhere else. But i'll give it another go on Zechariah, thanks.
Blessings Sonic
Hey, hang in there! You can do it! Just get a nice cup of tea, put on a little soft music, sit back, relax, and read Zechariah. Again, read it in a version that's easy for you to understand. The more natural sounding it is to your ear, the easier it'll be to read it just like any other short story or novel. Let it flow INTO you, and resist the temptation to cross reference the material. Maybe have a notebook near by where you can jot down a note or two when you have the inkling to investigate something, but then get back on track while the words are still fresh in your mind.
It'll become easier as you practice, but to stay focused is a discipline that one must learn. Anyway, I believe in you! Keep up the good work!
Roy (aka Retrobyter)
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/28/2008 12:45:18 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Sonic...AKA Mark,
I think that Retro has granted us the privilege of addressing him as Roy and I appreciate that…I really prefer first names for my brothers.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/28/2008 12:58:23 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
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That's nice actually, and I agree :) Wow I feel like i'm kinda accepted now :) Bad enough being the only limey, but now i'm a bro' Yay!
Mark
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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Broken ankle's healing well and I'm still going to therapy to strengthen the muscles of the legs. Some may try to dampen my spirits with doomsday prophecies and warnings, but I can't help but laugh! Can't wait until I'm able to dance around the room again! 
