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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/22/2008 7:23:59 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeekingT
Guys, I have a DH and children. DH supports my decision either way, if I decide to stay or leave. He does not feel led to go, however. How can I stay where I do not feel liberty...do not feel freedom? How can I leave when my husbnd does not feel led to go?
Could you clarify - if you left, would it be all of you (husband and children too) or just you?
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/22/2008 7:34:07 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
If you love this congregation, then it would be a small thing to wear skirts and dresses the rest of your life.
For me, if I started attending a church like this, I'd actually have to go out and spend money I couldn't afford on skirts/dresses that I would never wear except for church. I haven't worn anything except trousers (American pants) in over 20 years. It would be a *big* thing for me to have to do this, not a small thing. I would also not be being myself if I wore a shirt or a dress to church.
I also think it's a very superficial thing, and I can't imagine being in a church that held what were IMO such superficial legalistic values. I would not want my children being raised in such a church, and it would not be a church where I felt I could invite non-Christian friends. So, if it was me, I would not be able to see the point in being there, unless my husband was unwilling to attend anywhere else with me in which case I'd grit my teeth, pray for grace, stay, and also pray that if we are meant to leave, that my husband's mind would be changed.
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/23/2008 11:54:49 PM
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SeekingT
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/20/2008
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quote:
Could you clarify - if you left, would it be all of you (husband and children too) or just you?
It would be just me.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/24/2008 12:39:33 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Their are other things that lend themself to be off base.
They believe that women(or men, that's for Jhud ) should not wear makeup, necklaces or earrings as well. I mean that's the regulations that have been set for the membership of this particular church. If the members desire to abide by this fine. Just don't look down on others who do.
This is the expected standard. If you don't adhere to the standard in or out of the church building you are not considered a member, but a visitor. How can this be when we all are part of the body of Christ? I believe if I make the decision to go, I should be able to come back and "visit" and be welcomed and received as someone who is still part of the body of Jesus Christ, who is still part of His Church (although I may no longer be a member of their local church).
I don't know where to go. I'm not looking forward to looking for another local church. Guys, I really feel tied to this assembly.
You know, I don't agree with the standard, but I think there is a differentiation between the church universal and a local church family. The reality is churches differ across cultures and within cultures and as I said previously I have yet to find one where I agree with every jot and tittle of their everyday practice - but I don't begrudge any particular church advocating practices it feels are important to it's identity as a church, provided they don't claim that it is those practices which save us.
Every church draws a line of some sort that dictates who is properly considered a member of that church - and when done with a good heart, such a practice exists for a very good reason; it tells church leadership whom they are ultimately responsible for.
Again, I don't know the hearts of your leaders or the specifics of their teachings overall - I just think you have to weigh the entirety of your church experience there.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/24/2008 11:30:27 AM
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SeekingT
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/20/2008
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quote:
Every church draws a line of some sort that dictates who is properly considered a member of that church - and when done with a good heart, such a practice exists for a very good reason; it tells church leadership whom they are ultimately responsible for.
I really believe the intentions are pure, however, it comes across as a we're better than you attitude to visitors. That concerns me. I don't want my children to be a part of that. That's not the attitude in my own house.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/25/2008 2:55:44 PM
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LuuCee
Posts: 6
Joined: 9/8/2008
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quote:
Guys, I have a DH and children. DH supports my decision either way, if I decide to stay or leave. He does not feel led to go, however. How can I stay where I do not feel liberty...do not feel freedom? How can I leave when my husbnd does not feel led to go?
I'm In a similar situation. I know it is not esy.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/25/2008 5:52:09 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeekingT
quote:
Could you clarify - if you left, would it be all of you (husband and children too) or just you?
It would be just me.
Being the spiritual head of the family does not equate to being the dictator. If he got sideways with the pastor or elders over some issue, he'd be out fast enough that the door would not grace his behind. This congregation operates, it sounds, like a cult. A Christian cult is still a cult, though it may adhere to basic, essential doctrine, it may include rigid authority and rules that are not necessarily Bilblical.
Sociological definitions of the term 'cult' ... ...include consideration of such factors as authoritarian leadership patterns, loyalty and commitment mechanisms, lifestyle characteristics, [and] conformity patterns (including the use of various sanctions in connection with those members who deviate). Source: Ronald Enroth, "What Is a Cult?" in A Guide to Cults and New Religions, e.d. Ronald Enroth (Downers Grove, Ill,: InterVarsity 1983), p14
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/26/2008 3:38:21 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Being the spiritual head of the family does not equate to being the dictator. If he got sideways with the pastor or elders over some issue, he'd be out fast enough that the door would not grace his behind. This congregation operates, it sounds, like a cult. A Christian cult is still a cult, though it may adhere to basic, essential doctrine, it may include rigid authority and rules that are not necessarily Bilblical.
Sociological definitions of the term 'cult' ... ...include consideration of such factors as authoritarian leadership patterns, loyalty and commitment mechanisms, lifestyle characteristics, [and] conformity patterns (including the use of various sanctions in connection with those members who deviate). Source: Ronald Enroth, "What Is a Cult?" in A Guide to Cults and New Religions, e.d. Ronald Enroth (Downers Grove, Ill,: InterVarsity 1983), p14
Oh for heaven sake; when I was doing mission work in Central America, Christian women were generally expected to wear skirts, and those that didn't were considered risque by the locals; I guess this makes Central America a cult.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/26/2008 10:30:45 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Being the spiritual head of the family does not equate to being the dictator. If he got sideways with the pastor or elders over some issue, he'd be out fast enough that the door would not grace his behind. This congregation operates, it sounds, like a cult. A Christian cult is still a cult, though it may adhere to basic, essential doctrine, it may include rigid authority and rules that are not necessarily Bilblical.
Sociological definitions of the term 'cult' ... ...include consideration of such factors as authoritarian leadership patterns, loyalty and commitment mechanisms, lifestyle characteristics, [and] conformity patterns (including the use of various sanctions in connection with those members who deviate). Source: Ronald Enroth, "What Is a Cult?" in A Guide to Cults and New Religions, e.d. Ronald Enroth (Downers Grove, Ill,: InterVarsity 1983), p14
Oh for heaven sake; when I was doing mission work in Central America, Christian women were generally expected to wear skirts, and those that didn't were considered risque by the locals; I guess this makes Central America a cult.
The OP didn't indicate her church was in Costa Rica. If it is, then I stand admonished. Otherwise, my observation stands.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/26/2008 11:44:22 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
The OP didn't indicate her church was in Costa Rica. If it is, then I stand admonished. Otherwise, my observation stands.
You are missing the bigger point. (I know it's intentional, but still)
I think the before bantering around the moniker of 'cult' other aspects would needto be concerned; for example how do they regard, Christ, Scriptures, and salavation?
If they regarded skirt wearing as a matter of salvation, I would agree that such a stance would be cult-like - but as far as we know (and I think the whole analysis suffers from a lack of much critical information) it is more along the lines of the culture of the church, which varies across a very wide spectrum in our country. On one end of that spectrum you have the Amish, on the other you have Episcopalians, whom apparently not only don't encourage women to wear skirts, but are perfectly comfortable when their male pastors do so as a matter of lifestyle.
I don't know enough about this church to proclaim them a cult. The one practice mentioned isn't my cup of tea, but neither is living without technology as the Amish, Hutterites and Mennonites; but I don’t consider them ‘cults’. The reality is that is the purpose of living in a religiously free society – that people would be able form the communities they feel best serve their obedience to God – we in turn are free or not free to be a part of those communities; but I don’t think it is useful to call everyone whom has a more traditional view of things a ‘cult’.
Personally, I think there is a bigger concern about a marriage here where a husband and wife wouldn’t be in more agreement about the church they are going to be involved in, but the poster didn’t ask for marriage help.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/26/2008 3:02:38 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3952
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Personally, I think there is a bigger concern about a marriage here where a husband and wife wouldn’t be in more agreement about the church they are going to be involved in, but the poster didn’t ask for marriage help.
That would be the logical next step.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/26/2008 3:36:34 PM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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I don't believe that you are not saved because you are wearing pants. Salvation is simple Faith in Christ and repenting (turning) from sins.
However, we have to be culturally conseous. In the country where I come from the women who wear pants are normally loose and promiscous. This is what turn men on in that culture, similar to extra short skirts or see through clothing, here. So, it is a sign of modesty not to wear skirts there and christian women are not expected to wear such clothing. But in that society, there are some women who dress like nuns, look like mother Teresa but are as lustful as Pamela Anderson.
For the American society things are different. It is cold over here, the world has pushed the envelop further than that. They wear underwears outside now. So a woman in regualr pants do not turn men on. I don't believe a reglar pant that is not immodest is wrong.
Also, remember that people of the middle-east during Jesus' time used to wear flowing gowns(both men and women). THough the styles are different. So, are we gonna say to the Lord that He is dressed wrong. This says that dressing is culturally specific.
Even the Glorified Jesus when John saw Him was "wearing a rob that is down to His Feet." I guess those people will say to Jesus, "Oh my Lord God you are looking too fiminine."
I have heard of a church that require that women cover their hair, but it will be better for some of the women there to take that head-covering to cover their legs.
_____________________________
Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Your cross I cling.
1) True Salvation
2) Justification: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13056
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/26/2008 3:51:34 PM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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However, if there are no doctrinal problems in the church and if the leadership refuses to budge on that issue, I will advise you to subject yourself to their rules and keep going there.
The Essential doctrines include the following:
quote:
1) Jesus is Lord, God, King, Priest, Prophet, Eternal, Creator, etc.
2) He died for sins and rose again. Meaning He lived a perfectly sinless life here.
3) Salvation is only by faith in Jesus, our repentance can’t save us (we have blown it, by committing even just one sin), so we need a savior.
4) Coming to Jesus, He commands us to repent of all sins(change our mind about our sins), be willing to put a stop to them and be ready to obey Him.
5) We are changed by constantly calling on Him to change us, not by our power (Isaiah 55:6-7, Matthew 5:6, etc)
6) Those who are not willing to obey Christ and continue to live a life-style of rebellion and sin will not inherit eternal life (Matthew 7:21-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:18-21, etc)
7) Jesus is the only overall head of the church He purchased with His blood. Not a human pastor or board of elders.
8) The bible is the final authority.
etc (but the basics) Please click the links on my signature line
If they believe these and preach it clearly from a heart of love and not condescention (you might to be able to dicsern though), you might wanna continue in the church. This is because sound churches are hard to find.
_____________________________
Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Your cross I cling.
1) True Salvation
2) Justification: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13056
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/26/2008 4:10:24 PM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeekingT
I really believe the intentions are pure, however, it comes across as a we're better than you attitude to visitors. That concerns me. I don't want my children to be a part of that. That's not the attitude in my own house.
Though it might sound foreign to Christians today, but they used to practice church discipline in the Church that Jesus left behind. They however limited it to the essential. Only people living a life-style of sin and are unrepentant about it. 1 Corinthians 5, Revelations 2:20-23, Titus 1:12-14, etc
quote:
Titus 1:12-14
One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
Apostle Paul (Mr. Grace) was telling another preacher to rebuke people who have misconceptions about Christianity, sharply so that they may be sound in the Faith. So, we should be careful not to fall into this culture of, "If I get rebuked, they are Judging me."
_____________________________
Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Your cross I cling.
1) True Salvation
2) Justification: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13056
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/28/2008 3:29:23 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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I am also very concerned about the legalism being demonstrated by this churche's "rules". Seldom does a church hold its membership to extra biblical rules this strictly and not also demonstrate issues of legalism in many other areas. I would encourage you to carefully examine all that the church teaches, and evaluate those teachings by comparing them to God's word. If they truly are in error only in this one area then making a concession may be something to consider, but if this is only one of many doctrinal errors being taught in this church then conceding to this teaching may not be wise.
I think there are several different competing interests that need to be prayerfully considered before making any kind of a decision.
1) Attending church with your family is the only truly healthy thing for you to do, and to attend somewhere else while your family remains in this church is a reflection of a very unhealthy situation. Depending on the seriousness of the doctrinal error it may be the right thing to do, but it should be understood that doing so reflects a deep and serious relational and spiritual issue between you and your husband. This is not an decision that should be made lightly! I would make this kind decision only if you were convinced that the church was in such error that being there was a spiritually dangerous place to be.
2) The fact that you concerns seem not to have be heard by your husband reflects a serious communication problem in your marriage. This issue, as I see it, is not demonstrated by the fact that your family hasn't changed churches, but by the fact that you have been unable to come to an agreement about what church to attend whether that means remaining where you are or moving to a different church. Make sure that you gently but clearly communicate your concerns, and if you are unable to come to an agreement that you both can accept then please seek outside help to deal with the communication issues in your marriage.
3) What you have mentioned here could be the warning signs of other more serious doctrinal errors, or it could simply be only one area of serious doctrinal concern in an otherwise healthy church. I think it is important to really carefully evaluate everything the church teaches (looking for outside help if needed), and then with a lot of prayer make a decision about how to deal with this situation. I believe in almost every circumstance the correct first response is to address the issue with the elders whenever doctrinal error is being taught. When meeting with them be prepared to show from Scripture why you believe the teaching to be in error. If the church refuses to change the policy you will have to prayerfully consider whether to submit to the authority of the elders on this issue, remain in the church but refuse membership because you cannot in good conscience submit to the elders on this issue (Remember God could be calling you to be the catalyst for change), or to leave the church.
This is a very tough situation and I would encourage you to take a great amount of care to carefully weigh each of the alternatives. Based on the information you have presented so far, I don't believe anyone should be advising you to either leave or stay at this point; there is just too much about your situation that remains unanswered. I think those who have told you what you SHOULD in do regards to staying or leaving at this point have gone just as far beyond anything scripture says as your church has done regarding the issue of dress and modesty. There have been a lot of good points raised on this thread and these need to be prayerfully and carefully considered, but I would encourage you not to act to hastily. When I have been confronted with situations of similar gravity as the one you are facing in your church, I have always addressed my concerns with the elders because I believe strongly that being a member of a church represents a commitment and responsibility that each believer has to that church, and it isn't something we should take lightly. I personally can't imagine ever silently leaving a church over a either a doctrinal issue or an issue of sin in the church for a couple of reasons. First, I recognize that my perception of the issue may be distorted and until I open up a dialog by voicing my concerns, I may never realize the extent of those distortions. Two, the leadership may be blind to the issue God has laid on my heart and opening up diallog may be the first step in bringing correction.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 11/30/2008 3:38:38 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 267
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeekingT
quote:
If they are a little off base about being judged by wearing pants, what else are they a little off base about? If were in your shoes think that I would go. Let your friends know that you love them dearly and will miss them but don't make a big deal out of why you are moving to another church.
Above all, make sure you move on God's timetable, which I admit, is easier said than done.
Their are other things that lend themself to be off base.
They believe that women(or men, that's for Jhud  ) should not wear makeup, necklaces or earrings as well. I mean that's the regulations that have been set for the membership of this particular church. If the members desire to abide by this fine. Just don't look down on others who do.
This is the expected standard. If you don't adhere to the standard in or out of the church building you are not considered a member, but a visitor. How can this be when we all are part of the body of Christ? I believe if I make the decision to go, I should be able to come back and "visit" and be welcomed and received as someone who is still part of the body of Jesus Christ, who is still part of His Church (although I may no longer be a member of their local church).
I don't know where to go. I'm not looking forward to looking for another local church. Guys, I really feel tied to this assembly.
The church does sound legalistic in regard to outward appearance. God looks upon the heart, not the outward appearance. You and your husband are, apparently, not in agreement. This is an important matter and the two of you should stand as one. I believe you mentioned having children, therefore, you have been married for a period of time. Yet, as you describe your husband's understanding of this situation, there is either a lack of communication between the two of you or he dis-agrees with you. Perhaps he does not think you should ever wear pants either. Perhaps it doesn't matter to him if you wear pants or not. More likely, he does not understand why being considered a "member" of the church is of such importance to you. He might find being considered a "visitor" acceptable. You say you "..really feel tied to this assembly". If you really feel loved, wanted and cared for in this church and return the same, then pray this through. Good, caring, loving friends are hard to find. The utmost priority is that you and husband communicate and reach agreement. Your spouse's love is worth more than ten thousand times ten thousand others whose love for you is even that of the closest, dearest of friends.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 12/2/2008 11:32:16 AM
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ChristFollower21
Posts: 52
Joined: 11/18/2008
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I understand what you mean, my neighbors are the same way. They believe its not okay to wear pants because they think it will entice a man, but you can entice a man if your well groomed and relaxing in white tee and some sweats. You know, you should join another church. They are suppose to live by the New Testament, but we can take the old testament as a way to grown in learning about God. They took it too far.Your not alone.
_____________________________
Isaiah 55:8 " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, saith the Lord"
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 12/2/2008 3:21:18 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeekingT
I have been attending a church that believes that women ae not to wear pants because of what is says in Deuteronomy and how pants make women look masculine...
I grew up in such a church and the passage is used out of context - it was referring to a pagan practice of cross-dressing for immoral purposes.
I once challenged my former pastor to wear pants purchased from the woman's department - if they are indeed men's clothing. He turned red but would not accept the challenge because he realized his position was built on sand.
As for making a woman look masculine, that's a new one on me. The charge is usually that women wearing pants is immodest - even though dresses are obviously more immodest in certain circumstances. Nonetheless, I've never, ever seen woman who looked masculine just by wearing pants.
There seemed to be two attitudes for maintaining that women shouldn't wear pants:
1) The attitude that women need to be "kept in their place" by men and
2) By men that obviously had a serious lust issue, men that would prefer women dress like Muslim women were forced in Afganistan under the Taliban.
BTW, I left that denomination in 1986 and the freedom in Christ was such a breath of fresh air. I chose not to be controlled by a group of men that changed their definition of "separated Christian living" constantly.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 12/2/2008 3:27:04 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: SeekingT
I have been attending a church that believes that women ae not to wear pants because of what is says in Deuteronomy and how pants make women look masculine...
I grew up in such a church and the passage is used out of context - it was referring to a pagan practice of cross-dressing for immoral purposes.
I once challenged my former pastor to wear pants purchased from the woman's department - if they are indeed men's clothing. He turned red but would not accept the challenge because he realized his position was built on sand.
As for making a woman look masculine, that's a new one on me. The charge is usually that women wearing pants is immodest - even though dresses are obviously more immodest in certain circumstances. Nonetheless, I've never, ever seen woman who looked masculine just by wearing pants.
There seemed to be two attitudes for maintaining that women shouldn't wear pants:
1) The attitude that women need to be "kept in their place" by men and
2) By men that obviously had a serious lust issue, men that would prefer women dress like Muslim women were forced in Afganistan under the Taliban.
BTW, I left that denomination in 1986 and the freedom in Christ was such a breath of fresh air. I chose not to be controlled by a group of men that changed their definition of "separated Christian living" constantly.
Good post,
I am continually amazed at how creative some pastors are at finding support for their "pet" doctrines in the bible.
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RE: Please Help, I don't know what to do? - 12/2/2008 3:37:01 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9473
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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Amen Eutychus and Benelchi.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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