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[Poll]
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Provocatively dressed women
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| Provocative dress causes rape. |
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| Provocative dress is one of many risk factors. |
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| Provacative dress is never a risk factor. |
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Total Votes : 27
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(last vote on : 12/20/2008 10:48:15 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 8:54:25 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
Wow, are you misinformed.
First of all, if rape is even remotely related to provocative dress, why has the number of rapes in the U.S. declined relatively consistently since 1979 (I doubt that anyone would try to make a case that women dressed more provocatively in 1979 than they do today). From the US Justice department:
quote:
In 1979, according to a Justice Department estimate based on a wide-ranging public survey, there were 2.8 rapes for every 1,000 people. In 2004, the same survey found that the rate had decreased to 0.4 per thousand.
How terribly odd. I don't seem to know any woman (in the teen to 40 or so age range) who hasn't been raped or sexually assaulted. I guess most of them (date rapes and attempted rapes) are just not reported. So we have a case where the anecdotal evidence (and a huge amount of it at that) doesn't line up with the official statistics. In this case I'll side with the anecdotal.
It would make an interesting anonymous poll here for the ladies "Have you been raped/sexually assaulted?" I think the results would shame us all.
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Second, if provocative dress has any impact on someone's likelihood to be raped can you explain why 44% of rape victims are under the age of 18 (and 15% are under the age of 12)? Is it because young girls are more likely to dress provocatively or because they're easier to victimize?
Or because they date more often (under 18 that is).
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This "Truth" that you claim to be sticking up for is nothing more than blaming the potential victim. It is unbiblical and immoral. Regardless of what you want to believe, the Bible is clear that men (and women) are responsible for their actions - for guarding our hearts and our thoughts. We are not to let temptations in any form - whether money, provocatively clothed women, pornography or power - dictate our behavior. 1 Cor 6:12-20 is pretty clear that we, as men, are not to be mastered by any form of sexual immorality, and trying to tie rape to provocative clothing at any level is simply abdicating control over our own behavior.
You need to read the thread again. Benelchi specifically stated he was not blaming the victim. Rape is always wrong and always the fault of the rapist.
If I take a walk through the better parts of a city my chances of getting mugged are very low. If I take a walk through the worst parts of a city my chances of getting mugged are multiple times higher. In either case if I do get mugged it's not my fault. But I put myself into the position to be mugged.
If I leave my car unlocked at work it will not get stolen. If I leave my car unlocked parked along the freeway in a major city it will disappear in a few moments. In either event I am innocent but my odds of suffering a crime against me are much higher if I don't practice wisdom and protect myself.
Likewise a woman who dresses provocatively is far more likely to provoke a sexual assault. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. We can either deny it and claim that men shouldn't be like that, or we can admit the reality that we are sinful creatures and women (our daughters for example) have to practice some discretion in their dress (and where they go and who they go with) to keep themselves safe.
The women who claim they can dress anyway they want, go anywhere they want and do anything they want and still be safe are deluding themselves
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 10:46:00 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
Wow, are you misinformed.
First of all, if rape is even remotely related to provocative dress, why has the number of rapes in the U.S. declined relatively consistently since 1979 (I doubt that anyone would try to make a case that women dressed more provocatively in 1979 than they do today). From the US Justice department:
quote:
In 1979, according to a Justice Department estimate based on a wide-ranging public survey, there were 2.8 rapes for every 1,000 people. In 2004, the same survey found that the rate had decreased to 0.4 per thousand.
The reason for the rate "decrease" is that was recognized that there were significant errors in how rape was being classified. The drop was seen do to new standards for classifying rape that we adopted by those studying the subject, and not because of a drop in the rate. The reasons for the shift in how rape is classified is a topic that has been well documented in resent studies. That is why it is important to look at the details of a study and not simply the statistics. The studies themselves document this change of methodology.
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Second, if provocative dress has any impact on someone's likelihood to be raped can you explain why 44% of rape victims are under the age of 18 (and 15% are under the age of 12)? Is it because young girls are more likely to dress provocatively or because they're easier to victimize?
Because there are different classifications of rape and when you try to generalize every classification of rape under one umbrella you are going to demonstrate the kind of errors that you have. Rape of minor children by relatives or close acquaintances has long be one of the largest groups of rape victims and accounts for the statistics you cited; however, date rape has be the single fastest growing class of rape. And interestingly enough the group which has demonstrated the highest per capita of victims has been among sex workers where provocative dress is the norm.
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This "Truth" that you claim to be sticking up for is nothing more than blaming the potential victim. It is unbiblical and immoral.
It is never unbiblical or immoral to tell the truth.
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Regardless of what you want to believe, the Bible is clear that men (and women) are responsible for their actions - for guarding our hearts and our thoughts. We are not to let temptations in any form - whether money, provocatively clothed women, pornography or power - dictate our behavior. 1 Cor 6:12-20 is pretty clear that we, as men, are not to be mastered by any form of sexual immorality,
If you had bothered to really read anything I have said (even in just this thread) instead initiating the unkind and unthoughtful attack that you have, you would have realized that I have said absolutely nothing that disagrees with your statement above. The issue is not about blaming women for being raped, it is recognizing that men who, in their sin, are willing to rape a woman will be attracted to those women who do dress provocatively. It is only one of many risk factors, and it is not a big factor by itself. However, it is clearly something that is outside of the standards for which God calls women. Why should a woman put herself in the position of increasing (however small an increase that it might be) her risk of rape by violating God's standards for dress? Additionally, provocative dress has far more important negative consequences for women. It teaches them that their value is solely measured by their ability to attract men. It causes them to be looked at as sexual objects rather than as greatly loved children of God who have far more value than what is found in just their sexuality. The wrong view of self worth that is exhibited in provocative dress most often results sinful choices that are painfully damaging to women. There really is a reason why God has called women to be modest. Why would anyone advocate for anything less?
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and trying to tie rape to provocative clothing at any level is simply abdicating control over our own behavior.
No, it is simply a recognition that rapists who, in their sin, will choose to rape, are still attracted to provocatively dressed women. The fact that most rapists are heavily involved with pornography demonstrates that fact. The idea that a rapist is somehow more immune to the temptation that faces even the most righteous men, is ludicrous and clearly not supported by any of the studies on rape.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 10:52:33 AM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
In this case I'll side with the anecdotal.
Um, O.K. I don't know what that has to do with anything - it sounds like you're saying that all women have been raped (in spite of dozens of surveys that put that number at about 1 in 3). If your number is correct then are you saying that all women dress provocatively and put themselves at risk?
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Rape is always wrong and always the fault of the rapist.
If that's the case then why are we even talking about risk factors. Either it's always wrong and is the fault of the rapist or women put themselves at risk by dressing provocatively. It seems like we want to have it both ways, which is exactly the mindset that puts us at risk in this conversation (are men really so weak that we simply can't control ourselves in the face of a provocatively dressed female)?
Why do I think this is such a big deal? Because among college students "1 in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, but 84% of those students said what they did was definitely not rape." If those numbers are even close to being accurate there are a lot of men running around deluding themselves about their sexual behavior.
Frankly, I think we're kidding ourselves about this whole conversation. If we really believe that rape is wrong and is the fault of the rapist the conversation should stop there. Instead, we want to haggle over whether someone's behavior puts them at risk (instead of wanting to challenge men to stop letting someone else's choices influence our response).
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 11:18:26 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
Frankly, I think we're kidding ourselves about this whole conversation. If we really believe that rape is wrong and is the fault of the rapist the conversation should stop there.
This is like saying that one should not take precautions against victim of robbery or murder i.e. if it is the fault of the one perpetrating the crime the conversation should stop there! Because we are not at fault, should we do nothing to protect ourselves? What about sinful choices that I make that put me in greater danger of being a victim of crime, like the increased risk a drug dealer has of being murdered. Is mentioning that being involved in drug trafficking increases ones risk of being murdered off limits because the murder would not be the victims fault?
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Instead, we want to haggle over whether someone's behavior puts them at risk (instead of wanting to challenge men to stop letting someone else's choices influence our response).
This is called a false dichotomy! Most of us believe strongly that we must address both of these issues, and encourage both our brothers and our sisters to uphold God's standards for living. It is never an issue of addressing one OR the other.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 6:46:25 PM
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mrtigger
Posts: 320
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
(I doubt that anyone would try to make a case that women dressed more provocatively in 1979 than they do today).
I'm staying out of the rape part of the discussion but I think women dress a lot more convservatively now than they did back then. Back then mini-skirts, hot pants (that's really short shorts for you younguns...), tight lycra, halter tops, etc. was common female attire. You don't see much of that these days. Much more conservative now.
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mr tigger
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/25/2008 10:48:21 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
quote:
In this case I'll side with the anecdotal.
Um, O.K. I don't know what that has to do with anything - it sounds like you're saying that all women have been raped (in spite of dozens of surveys that put that number at about 1 in 3). If your number is correct then are you saying that all women dress provocatively and put themselves at risk?
I can only address the women I know. Most of which have been assaulted in some form or fashion. I brought this up to show that your decreasing incidence of rape stat has to be flawed somehow. And benelchi addressed it well.
quote:
Rape is always wrong and always the fault of the rapist.
If that's the case then why are we even talking about risk factors. Either it's always wrong and is the fault of the rapist or women put themselves at risk by dressing provocatively. It seems like we want to have it both ways,
That's becuase it is both ways. read my post again. There are several paragraphs in it that explain the point well.
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which is exactly the mindset that puts us at risk in this conversation (are men really so weak that we simply can't control ourselves in the face of a provocatively dressed female)?
Some are. And that is part of teh reason why women should be aware that provocative dress will procvoke some men to go further than the woman wants to go.
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Why do I think this is such a big deal? Because among college students "1 in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, but 84% of those students said what they did was definitely not rape." If those numbers are even close to being accurate there are a lot of men running around deluding themselves about their sexual behavior.
So here we examine one influencing factor to some mens behavior and you think we should just ignore the whole thing?
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Frankly, I think we're kidding ourselves about this whole conversation. If we really believe that rape is wrong and is the fault of the rapist the conversation should stop there.
Robbery is wrong. Yet it is still really stupid to walk alone through some neighborhoods because you know you will be mugged if you go there.
Same deal with provocative dress.
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Instead, we want to haggle over whether someone's behavior puts them at risk (instead of wanting to challenge men to stop letting someone else's choices influence our response).
Who says we don't want to do both?
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 8:48:10 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10364
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I SHOULD be able to leave the keys in my car with the windows rolled down and expect it to be there when I return.
I SHOULD be able to walk anywhere any place any time and expect to be left alone without the fear of being mugged.
That I can't do those things is no fault of mine. It is because of someone else's actions that it is risky to do.
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 9:45:28 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
I SHOULD be able to leave the keys in my car with the windows rolled down and expect it to be there when I return.
I SHOULD be able to walk anywhere any place any time and expect to be left alone without the fear of being mugged.
That I can't do those things is no fault of mine. It is because of someone else's actions that it is risky to do.
I think this is a good analogy, but doesn't convey the whole picture because in regard to this topic there are really two issues. Adapting your example to this topic, I would say.
I SHOULD be able to dress provocatively and walk any place any time and expect to be left alone without the fear of anything. But I still SHOULDN'T dress provocatively.
The fact that you CAN'T walk anywhere at any time no matter how you are dressed is completely a reflection of the sinfulness of others. But choosing to dress provocatively is a reflection of your own sin.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 11:21:11 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
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From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
I SHOULD be able to leave the keys in my car with the windows rolled down and expect it to be there when I return.
right ... try it in the middle of the night downtown in a huge city ... we aren't responsible for other people's actions but i wouldn't be totally surprised if something happened to the car ... i don't think wearing provactive dress is even close to this situation but i'm not afraid to admit it may play a part in either the motive OR selection of target ...
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 12:27:44 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
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quote:
I can only address the women I know. Most of which have been assaulted in some form or fashion.
So what did the women you know do to increase their risk? Did they dress provocatively? Did they do something else? How do you handle this issue with them?
I'm being sincere in asking these questions. If most of the women you know have been assaulted in on form or another there must be some consistent pattern that points to what they did to increase their risk and I'd like to know what it is so that I can warn my wife and my 13-year old daughter to avoid those behaviors.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 12:32:33 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10364
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
right ... try it in the middle of the night downtown in a huge city ... we aren't responsible for other people's actions but i wouldn't be totally surprised if something happened to the car ... i don't think wearing provactive dress is even close to this situation but i'm not afraid to admit it may play a part in either the motive OR selection of target ... So, does it make a difference if it is an old beat up pickup truck worth about $9.95 or a snazzy new $300,000 Maserati?
As I said before, even if its an itsy bitsy bikini or an ankle length flannel nightgown, it is what's in the heart of the OTHER person that directs their actions.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 12:42:32 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
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From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
So, does it make a difference if it is an old beat up pickup truck worth about $9.95 or a snazzy new $300,000 Maserati?
As I said before, even if its an itsy bitsy bikini or an ankle length flannel nightgown, it is what's in the heart of the OTHER person that directs their actions.
agreed about OTHER person's heart ... i suppose a maseratti would be more provactive and a thief may choose that if both vehicles are side by side?
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Photoblogging My Life
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 1:47:16 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
it is recognizing that men who, in their sin, are willing to rape a woman will be attracted to those women who do dress provocatively.
I read this entire thread but I don't see anything that backs up this assertion. I'd like to know what you're basing this on.
quote:
provocative dress has far more important negative consequences for women. It teaches them that their value is solely measured by their ability to attract men. It causes them to be looked at as sexual objects rather than as greatly loved children of God who have far more value than what is found in just their sexuality.
So who gets to decide what is provocative? Is that something that you decide? Is there a clear biblical standard that you advocate?
The problem with this approach is that you're letting any man decide what the standard is, and every man has a different standard. For some men a woman wearing shorts and a t-shirt may be considered provocative, or is it a low-cut dress, or a backless evening gown? How are women supposed to know what is provocative if every man has a different standard?
Are they all supposed to wear loose-fitting turtle neck sweaters and floor length skirts? Some men might find that look provocative. Is there some other standard that they should adhere to that allows them to wear what they want to but not risk being attacked by a man who is sinful enough to be provoked.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 2:51:26 PM
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rofaith
Posts: 81
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: rofaith, a believer
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Wow, have to agree somewhat with the post having to do with what is provocative and what is not. I remember traveling in Dubai where women dress head to toe in a flowing body-length black attire. Completely covered except for their faces. It was incredibly alluring. So much so, that I had to force myself to look away.
IMHO, the one constantcy in all of the is "the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and the pride of life". My thinking is that lust, rape etc whether it be physical, emotional or mental, can occur as a result of any and all of these. Sometimes it's one or more of these that plays in the situation.
My thinking is that women can provoke a person who is enslaved to any or more of these sinful desires. Especially, if they (her or those she influences by the way she dresses) are sexually addicted, or broken emotionally in some fashion. That leads us to the scriptures where out of love for others instead of yourself, you make decisions on what you eat, drink, wear etc. I think women should be mindful of others as they chose how to present themselves. It also goes to what her motivation is.... fashion for the sake of fashion... over and over again, you hear girls, women etc state that the idea behind dressing provocatively is to get the attention of some potential boyfriend or man-friend. The desire to "turn heads" to attract attention. The " look at me ", "I want to be the center of your attention" "don't I look beautiful ? " kinds of thinking....It goes to our, meaning woman's and men's, base instincts which are rooted in sin. So, it goes to just how incredibly broken we all are due to the influence of sin on our lives. It's incredibly destructive. Sin is indeed evil...
Can a woman give up theses motivations which are rooted in the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and the pride of life, for the sake of loving others in Christian love (agape)? Putting herself and her desires last in lieu of others. Frankly, I don't see much of that these days, even in church, bible studies etc. When I talk to other guys and reflect on my own emotions as we cope with women who are provocatively dressed, is that we would rather just not have to deal with the incredibly charged emotions we are forced to deal with during that "split second" of time when the "trigger is pulled" after the image presents itself to us in real life. Thoughts, lust, control etc. all of it occurs in a split second, and we as men are forced to deal with the outcome. The existence of sin within our members is not a choice. It is what it is. It's the choices we make when tempted and provoked. Often, I will shun a woman who dresses this way because just exactly what am I supposed to do with the emotion, lust etc. that surfaces when I am provoked in this way. The obvious answer, is to renounce it, repent etc. I can only trust God to give me victory with this enigma. That is to see women not as objects, but beautiful creatures of God, or potentially beautiful when in meekness they act and dress in a Christian way in obedience to their Savior.
In the end, it goes both ways.... for men and women... we all need repentance.
As a postscript, before I returned to my Savior Jesus Christ after a long life of brokenness and sin, I remember reading a magazine (Cosmopolitan...sheesh) which I don't even look at now for the reasons we've discussed here. Anyway, an amazing insight, was made. They kept on saying that dressing provocatively gives women power...... I think I understand that better now...
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There is no other name....
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 3:45:57 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8028
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
quote:
I can only address the women I know. Most of which have been assaulted in some form or fashion.
So what did the women you know do to increase their risk? Did they dress provocatively? Did they do something else? How do you handle this issue with them?
I'm being sincere in asking these questions. If most of the women you know have been assaulted in on form or another there must be some consistent pattern that points to what they did to increase their risk and I'd like to know what it is so that I can warn my wife and my 13-year old daughter to avoid those behaviors.
Provocative dress, hanging around the wrong people, drinking etc. Generally putting themselves in risky situations. Now note that I did not say they've all been raped. I said they've all been assaulted. That could be subjected to sexual comments etc. (Just wanted to be clear)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/26/2008 3:46:17 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
quote:
it is recognizing that men who, in their sin, are willing to rape a woman will be attracted to those women who do dress provocatively.
I read this entire thread but I don't see anything that backs up this assertion. I'd like to know what you're basing this on.
I did post a link to one article on the current issues in rape research in the thread in M & E; the dialog in that thread was the basis for this thread; however, that being said, I believe the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who would claim that rapists are less attracted to provocative clothing than are men who do not rape because such a revelation would be unexpected given the nature of the crime. Again because it is known that rapists are often very involved in pornography, concluding that these men are less affected by provocative dress seems to contradict the evidence.
Here are some links in addition to the paper to which I already provided a link:
http://www.stop.org.za/Victor%20Cline%27s%20Study.pdf
http://www.dianarussell.com/porntoc.html
http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/vbctreat.cfm
http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Relationships-Pornography-Misogyny-Rape/dp/0761905251
From "Sexual Strands by Ron Langevin" dealing with deviant sexual behavior and therapy:
"There is little evidence to suggest that incestuous men have other than a normal erotic profile (Table 9.1). They Generally prefer physically mature females and desire the normal range of sexual interactions with them. Their choice of female is socially deviant and this may reflect their social introversion, shyness and disinhibition from excessive use of alcohol in many cases." Pg 311
Following are some of the appalling facts about the dangers of pornography and sexually related crimes:
* “A 1985 study found that boys--ages 12 to 17--are the largest consumers of sexually explicit material. This trend is alarming considering the fact that many experts say pornography actually promotes dangerous misinformation about sexual relations and advances sexual dysfunction and medically risky practices.”
* “Enough Is Enough Campaign reports that 87 percent of convicted molesters of girls and 77 percent of convicted molesters of boys admit to using pornography, most often in the commission of their crimes.”
* “According to the National Center for Missing & Sexually Exploited Children, conservative estimates indicate that one in five girls and one in ten boys will be sexually victimized before reaching adulthood. Unfortunately, many children do not report what has happened to them out of fear, shame or embarrassment. In fact, less than 35 percent of these cases are ever reported to law enforcement officials.”
* “There are more than 400,000 registered sex offenders in this country.”
* More than 65 studies have shown that dangerous offenders (child molesters, killers, rapists, incest fathers) are not only more likely to commit their crimes if they employ pornography, they are likely to precede their violent acts with the extended use of deviant materials. Male sex offenders soon begin to display addictive and compulsive behavior when using porn. Their mechanisms for relieving stress soon all become related to deviant sex. They offend more and more often.
* According to National Public Radio, nearly a third of children age 10 to 17 said that they had seen a pornographic web site.
* Dr. Victor Cline, a clinical psychologist, who has treated over 300 sex addicts documents the slippery slope to addiction. He says the four steps are: addiction, escalation, desensitization, and acting out.
Again, I believe there is ample evidence to demonstrate that sexual offenders have a greater problem with lust, and they act out because of that lust. The claim often made that rape has nothing to do with sex is simply not supported by the evidence.
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quote:
provocative dress has far more important negative consequences for women. It teaches them that their value is solely measured by their ability to attract men. It causes them to be looked at as sexual objects rather than as greatly loved children of God who have far more value than what is found in just their sexuality.
So who gets to decide what is provocative? Is that something that you decide? Is there a clear biblical standard that you advocate?
The problem with this approach is that you're letting any man decide what the standard is, and every man has a different standard. For some men a woman wearing shorts and a t-shirt may be considered provocative, or is it a low-cut dress, or a backless evening gown? How are women supposed to know what is provocative if every man has a different standard?
Are they all supposed to wear loose-fitting turtle neck sweaters and floor length skirts? Some men might find that look provocative. Is there some other standard that they should adhere to that allows them to wear what they want to but not risk being attacked by a man who is sinful enough to be provoked.
I understand the difficulties in coming to an agreement on what the standards should be, but I also believe the bible is clear that we need to have standards. Does it make sense that Paul would have written about standards of modesty in his letter to Timothy if he believed that Timothy was incapable of discerning reasonable standards for the women in his church? Is it reasonable to assume that God would have allowed Paul to write about the need for modesty if no one would be able to determine a standard for modesty? For those of us who accept the bible to be the inerrant word of God, we must also accept that a reasonable understanding of "modestly" can be determined. Yes, there have and continue to be abuses with how this topic has been handled in the church, but that doesn't mean that it should simply be dismissed as irrelevant. It is probably impossible to expect that every church body will adopt a univerally accepted standard for modesty, but we should expect that individual bodies of believers can come to reasonable agreement on this issue. To simply ignore it, is to ignore the admonishments on this topic given to us in God's word.
Edited to add:
Note: Not everyone in the church agrees with the standards for sex outside of marriage upheld by most churches (especially in regard to premarital sex), does that mean that the church should abandon standards in regard to that topic as well?
< Message edited by benelchi -- 11/26/2008 4:07:57 PM >
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/28/2008 1:29:37 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1756
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Again, I believe there is ample evidence to demonstrate that sexual offenders have a greater problem with lust, and they act out because of that lust. The claim often made that rape has nothing to do with sex is simply not supported by the evidence.
I'm glad you brought this up as well as the correlation between the use of porn and criminal sexual conduct. Having worked with sex offenders as a probation officer, cofacilitating sex offender treatment, it has been my experience to see that porn has played a very large role in the perpetration of sex crimes. I have been to countless trainngs where I have heard people (mostly women) say that rape is about power and control.
I see several problems here. Some of it has to do with terminology. It seems that when we hear words like rape, we don't all come to the same understanding of the term. Power and control is a key element as someone who is using another for personal sexual gratification has to manipulate and control the emotions of their victim. Yet, the underlying factor that's driving the control is the lust of the perpetrator. This lust is often fuled by consumption of pornography.
Add to this the pornification of popular culture. Porn has become somewhat mainstreamed. Clothing designs seem to reflect this pornification. Males who are using a lot of porn and masturbating to that porn tend to view women as objects to be used for sexual gratification as oppsed to people. Or, if they are consuming other forms of porn, whatever arouses them becomes a sexual object rather than a person. Yet, understanding how human emotions work, they learn to use the emotions of others to fulfill their own desires.
If we, the church, are going to combat this cultural trend, we have to speak to our kids, boys and girls about what the Bible teaches about how we are to treatt each other. We have to do this in the home and not leave it to Sunday school teachers and ministers to do this. We have to get over our own discomforts and be able to talk openly and honestly with our kids and to know our kids well.
When I have conducted training sessions in the community about sex offenders, I am always asked how to protect our kids. The only way to protect them is to know them. Build trust so that if someone does something or attempts something with them, they will come tell us regardless of threats made by a perp. We also have to know who their friends are and the parents of their friends. If they are online using social networking sites, we have to watch what they're doing and know who they're talking to. Sex offender registries don't do anything to protect anyone other than shift the responsibility onto the government. When we see it being the responsibility of the government, we tend to go on about our business and not be engaged in our families.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Provocatively dressed women - 11/28/2008 2:28:30 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
Again, I believe there is ample evidence to demonstrate that sexual offenders have a greater problem with lust, and they act out because of that lust. The claim often made that rape has nothing to do with sex is simply not supported by the evidence.
I'm glad you brought this up as well as the correlation between the use of porn and criminal sexual conduct. Having worked with sex offenders as a probation officer, cofacilitating sex offender treatment, it has been my experience to see that porn has played a very large role in the perpetration of sex crimes. I have been to countless trainngs where I have heard people (mostly women) say that rape is about power and control.
I see several problems here. Some of it has to do with terminology. It seems that when we hear words like rape, we don't all come to the same understanding of the term. Power and control is a key element as someone who is using another for personal sexual gratification has to manipulate and control the emotions of their victim. Yet, the underlying factor that's driving the control is the lust of the perpetrator. This lust is often fuled by consumption of pornography.
Add to this the pornification of popular culture. Porn has become somewhat mainstreamed. Clothing designs seem to reflect this pornification. Males who are using a lot of porn and masturbating to that porn tend to view women as objects to be used for sexual gratification as oppsed to people. Or, if they are consuming other forms of porn, whatever arouses them becomes a sexual object rather than a person. Yet, understanding how human emotions work, they learn to use the emotions of others to fulfill their own desires.
If we, the church, are going to combat this cultural trend, we have to speak to our kids, boys and girls about what the Bible teaches about how we are to treatt each other. We have to do this in the home and not leave it to Sunday school teachers and ministers to do this. We have to get over our own discomforts and be able to talk openly and honestly with our kids and to know our kids well.
When I have conducted training sessions in the community about sex offenders, I am always asked how to protect our kids. The only way to protect them is to know them. Build trust so that if someone does something or attempts something with them, they will come tell us regardless of threats made by a perp. We also have to know who their friends are and the parents of their friends. If they are online using social networking sites, we have to watch what they're doing and know who they're talking to. Sex offender registries don't do anything to protect anyone other than shift the responsibility onto the government. When we see it being the responsibility of the government, we tend to go on about our business and not be engaged in our families.
I absolutely agree!
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