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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/28/2008 5:10:45 PM
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tafkam
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I haven't read the whole thread so I hope I'm not repeating something but....
Personally, I think companies and stores drive their employees too hard. Why not give them both Thursday AND Friday off, with the option to work if they wish (rest assured, there are enough willing souls that no company would have to close if they wish).
I worked in the car business for a couple of years, and it was always frustrating to have to be back at work for 3/4 of the holiday weekend...time I'd much rather spend with my kids while they were out of school.
Some of the hours that retail outfits stay open nowadays is simply ludicrous....
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/28/2008 8:40:04 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Roberta_
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Roberta_
I do as little exchanging of money on the holidays and Sundays as I can get away with.
Then do you consider yourself the weaker sister or do you consider those who do the same on other days for biblical reasons equally justified?
Equally justified. My mother is a Seventh Day Adventist. If her employer required her to work on Saturdays, then I'd think that was wrong too.
Not if the employer required everyone...
Quite simply, forcing anyone to do what goes against their religious convictions is discrimination.
If the employer treats everyone the same there isn't discrimination. If you believe it's a sin to work on a given day it's not your employer's responsibility to make special arraignments. If a person cannot work on a given day of businesses it's their issue...
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/28/2008 8:45:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
I agree ROberta and except for necessary services then every job should be open to you no matter your religious beliefs. TO say that you can only work here if you will work SUnday is religious discrimination if you won't because of your beliefs.
No, it's a requirement of the job...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/28/2008 8:54:34 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5563
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quote:
I haven't read the whole thread so I hope I'm not repeating something but.... I haven't read the whole thread either...
quote:
I suppose some place has to be open for emergency items. Emergency items meaning what?
quote:
In the Walmart thread I mentioned earlier some made the point that if emergency services had to work why not them. I hope the people here would refrain from such a comparison as it is pointless. We need emergency workers, we can do without movie rentals. Two totally different situations. You know something... there are very few things that people need urgently that won't wait under 24 hours to buy.
I've seen stores going from being closed on Sundays (just about every store) to being open on a Sunday to being open on Boxing Day (26/12). When I worked for a supermarket, I was able to choose whether I wanted to work on a Sunday or not ~ there was an opt out clause. I did works Sundays, but I generally chose my hours around church. I worked on the theory if my boss wanted me in the job bad enough, he'd take me on my terms ~ and he did.
Wouldn't bother me if stores closed on a Sunday and Boxing Day again. They're open long enough through the week now.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 1:52:15 AM
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saraimay75
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Yes there were stores open yesterday bot they were all closed by the evening. Because when my mom and my aunt whent to go out and buy Tylonol (sp?) and Advil at 7:00 they could not buy any because all the stores had closed by then. Therefore a Thanksgiving dinner was or could be had by all.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 2:41:52 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Therefore a Thanksgiving dinner was or could be had by all.
Thanksgiving is a little more than scarfing down a warmed over dinner at 7 PM or later.
Its one thing to say that it serves the public good for places to be open, its quite another to dismiss the idea that people are missing a holiday they enjoy because they have to work is no big deal is something else.
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I worked on the theory if my boss wanted me in the job bad enough, he'd take me on my terms ~ and he did.
Thats the idea, to become valuable enough to your employer so that you can dictate the terms of employment, at least somewhat. You can always later decide to forego a benefit (for example work a Sunday for someone else) but it becomes your decision, not the company's. And that's a good thing.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 2:57:56 AM
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lw9
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quote:
Roberta: Quite simply, forcing anyone to do what goes against their religious convictions is discrimination.
How far do we take this? Should businesses have to honor islamic, wiccan, neo-pagan, or uber-legalistic Christian practices during business hours? A person could start a religion stating that it's a sin to work between the hours of 10:00am and 4:00pm. Great... now what.
It's a sad state of affairs when businesses have to bow to every religious need and whim, be that Christian or otherwise. Rather than expect businesses to cater to various personal beliefs, it's up to the individual find a career path that will not conflict with their convictions.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 9:01:39 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Rather than expect businesses to cater to various personal beliefs, it's up to the individual find a career path that will not conflict with their convictions.
I agree with this. I do think businesses should be upfront about what they are going to expect from employees during the interview process. The example up thread about Walmart telling someone they'd have to work the occasional Sunday before hiring then after hiring it became every Sunday says that employers are not always doing this.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 11/29/2008 9:15:18 AM >
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 10:58:06 AM
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stellaluna
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I'm still trying to figure out why it's okay for some people to work on Thanksgiving and Christmas and not other people, according to the OP. I don't get that.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 11:50:59 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
I'm still trying to figure out why it's okay for some people to work on Thanksgiving and Christmas and not other people, according to the OP. I don't get that.
Because we can't let fires burn, people die and criminals run wild but we can forego visiting Big Lots or renting movies (which can be done the day before) for two days out of the whole year.
Its a shame when anyone has to work on a holiday that they would rather spend with family. But we need some occupations to be staffed on those days for the public good. Why should everyone have to work just because some people do?
Again my litmus test (and the original question) was whether I feel comfortable asking someone to give up part of their holiday to provide a service to me. I'm completely OK asking a paramedic to treat me or a loved one in a medical emergency but I'm not going to ask a clerk to facilitate a movie rental when I could have done it the day before. Others may feel differently and there is room for debate but the idea that since emergency workers have to work so should anyone else doesn't fly.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 11/29/2008 12:11:19 PM >
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 12:08:01 PM
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agapetos
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Rufas, I couldn't agree with you more. It's not necessary for everyone to be at work on 'holidays' (Christmas etc). Some people have to work, but often we can do things to help reduce their workload. Like checking the wires on Christmas lights aren't damaged, being careful if we choose to light candles, cooking food properly ~ doesn't have to be anything really dramatic.
And just thinking before we reach for the phone to contact the emergency services ~ they may be at work but we don't have to stretch the services at this time of year with trivial matters.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 12:38:13 PM
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stellaluna
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You have said:
quote:
I personally have no problem with a business being open if there are workers who don't mind working. Its good to know that these situations are working themselves out. (do you have a problem or don’t you?)
quote:
You'll also note I never said anything about movie theaters. Going to the movies on a holiday cannot be replicated in another way so I'm not really getting into that. Movie rentals are another story, just rent them the day before. (why not go to the movies the day before or the day after?)
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As far as TV goes, since I'm not hooked in to a Nielsen box it doesn't matter. No one knows I'm watching. (but you are, the number of Nielsen households is very small, so you have to assume millions more are watching)
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I'm glad your journey will be easier, (referring to people at gas stations)
You also said:
quote:
Its a shame when anyone has to work on a holiday that they would rather spend with family. But we need some occupations to be staffed on those days for the public good. Why should everyone have to work just because some people do?
I think it’s just that you want to decide who should have to work and who shouldn’t. Why is it okay for theater employees to work, but not movie rental? Why is it okay for gas station attendants to work, but not pharmacy? Why is it okay for thousands of people to participate in parades and football games for your entertainment at home, but not people to work at a grocery store? I don’t understand.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 1:28:59 PM
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Roberta_
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Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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What is so wrong with not making an employee work on those days? There used to be a time when employers either closed on certain days or they had people volunteer to work those days, or they offered them extra pay for working it. Many companies these days are forcing people to work.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
Roberta: Quite simply, forcing anyone to do what goes against their religious convictions is discrimination.
How far do we take this? Should businesses have to honor islamic, wiccan, neo-pagan, or uber-legalistic Christian practices during business hours? A person could start a religion stating that it's a sin to work between the hours of 10:00am and 4:00pm. Great... now what.
It's a sad state of affairs when businesses have to bow to every religious need and whim, be that Christian or otherwise. Rather than expect businesses to cater to various personal beliefs, it's up to the individual find a career path that will not conflict with their convictions.
Well, by that token, you wouldn't have a problem with your employer asking you to lie, cheat or steal either then.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 1:51:28 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1329
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quote:
I think it’s just that you want to decide who should have to work and who shouldn’t. Why is it okay for theater employees to work, but not movie rental? Why is it okay for gas station attendants to work, but not pharmacy? Why is it okay for thousands of people to participate in parades and football games for your entertainment at home, but not people to work at a grocery store? I don’t understand.
It is the same answer its always been, is it important enough to make someone else work? In my opinion football and parades are time honored traditions that enhance the holiday experience for all of us. I'd rather movie theaters not be open either but I understand why people go so I avoided that. I personally do not go to movie theaters on Thanksgiving or Christmas nor do I go into gas stations (I might pump outside and use my card to pay, no need for an employee there).
I proposed a standard by which to think about this issue, your selective quotes notwithstanding (without the context of who I was responding to). The standard has been fairly consistent. The only inconsistencies you can bring up are those that happen because I try to see the other side of the issue (the movie theater and gas station thing being a prime example). I would be on more solid ground if I was focusing on "winning" a debate instead of engaging in a dialogue because I could just say people need to plan in advance and stay home with their families.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 1:59:05 PM
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saraimay75
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quote:
Thanksgiving is a little more than scarfing down a warmed over dinner at 7 PM or later.
Who say the dinner was warmer over? or was scarfed down?? Not their everybody has Thanksgiving feast in the middle of the day. Some like my family had it in the evening.
We do this at Christmas and it has nothing to do with weather or not anyone works on these days because no one does. It has to do with easing the stress of the people who are cooking and having to clean their houses.
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God love admiration . . . I think it annoys God if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 1:59:15 PM
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zoebob
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I must live in a "lucky" area because most things are closed. I remember last year on Christmas Eve I unexpectedly discovered I needed something at about 5 PM that I couln't live without for 36 hours and the only place to get it was the convenience store. THey would be open till midnight or whatever their usual hours were. I don't remember if they were opening up on Christmas or not. Even Walmart was closing before I could get there.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 2:13:22 PM
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lw9
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quote:
Roberta: What is so wrong with not making an employee work on those days? There used to be a time when employers either closed on certain days or they had people volunteer to work those days, or they offered them extra pay for working it. Many companies these days are forcing people to work.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of giving people the time off, but it's up to companies to make those decisions. In some cases, giving everyone the time off might lead to company layoffs to make up for lost productivity and money. There are many contributing factors for the trend, but the end result is still the same and people are working the holidays.
quote:
Well, by that token, you wouldn't have a problem with your employer asking you to lie, cheat or steal either then.
That argument makes absolutely no sense at all in regards to the discussion and my comment, which was that it's up to the individual to choose a career path that will not conflict with their beliefs. How you came to the conclusion that I wouldn't have a problem with an employer asking me to lie, cheat, and steal is beyond me. And whether a person is 'religious' or not makes no difference. Any company asking their employees to lie, cheat, and steal would probably be a legal matter and not just a moral one. 
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 2:39:57 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1329
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Who say the dinner was warmer over? or was scarfed down?? Not their everybody has Thanksgiving feast in the middle of the day. Some like my family had it in the evening.
Since I specified that the time I was referring to was 7 PM my comment stands (how late do they eat a huge meal?). If they got off at 3 or 4 PM your response has more merit. You also failed to note my elaboration where I stated that people who work are still missing much of the day's festivities. Getting off late in the afternoon (or evening) would interfere with many holiday festivities, I would hope we could acknowledge that and not just say they get to eat so they should be happy.
I appreciate the posters who supported part or all of my viewpoint. I also appreciate the posters who disagreed with my premise but acknowledged that the people working on these days are missing out and didn't just dismiss their having to work as no big deal. Finally thanks to the posters who brought up ways they benefit from the stores / other businesses being open. That is what allows me to see the other side of the issue as opposed to the barrage of "Why shouldn't they have to work?"
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 9:20:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
What is so wrong with not making an employee work on those days? There used to be a time when employers either closed on certain days or they had people volunteer to work those days, or they offered them extra pay for working it.
Many companies these days are forcing people to work.
We live in a 24/7 world... Companies are not there as a services to their employees... Many times I didn't have enough people volunteer to work so I had to "force" people to work and they as the law demanded received compensation for it, yet the law works both ways, since the company can compel one to work, or be fired... If the employee wants a certain day off I believe a company should do what it can, but it's not bound to accommodate to the point of hurting the company and or leaning on other employees because someone demands a certain day off... That's not fair to other employees...
quote:
Well, by that token, you wouldn't have a problem with your employer asking you to lie, cheat or steal either then.
I can't see where you gathered that from what was posted... The onus is not on the company to allow one to make sure THEY fulfill their religious and or other obligations... The rest on the shoulders of the person...
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 9:23:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
It's a religious conviction also. IMO, you sound like you think people should ignore religious convictions when it comes to their employment.
They shouldn't ignore them, nor should they demand others accommodate them... Doesn't that amount to them cramming their beliefs down another person throat?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 9:31:49 PM
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zoebob
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Requiring someone else to follow your beliefs would be cramming it down their throats. Expecting an employer not to make you break your beliefs is not. I have trouble believing that a business cannot run if a few people require off a particular day every week for religious beliefs. If it is that small maybe it should be closed on that day anyway then or the bosses who want it open should work that day. Surely not everyone needs to work on say SUnday. Those who have religious reasons preventing them should have the right to have that as their day off. Just like if someone always needs Saturday off or always needs Tuesday off for a religious belief and they make it clear when interviewed or at some point of conversion request and make it clear.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 10:05:16 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Requiring someone else to follow your beliefs would be cramming it down their throats. Expecting an employer not to make you break your beliefs is not. I have trouble believing that a business cannot run if a few people require off a particular day every week for religious beliefs. If it is that small maybe it should be closed on that day anyway then or the bosses who want it open should work that day. Surely not everyone needs to work on say Sunday. Those who have religious reasons preventing them should have the right to have that as their day off. Just like if someone always needs Saturday off or always needs Tuesday off for a religious belief and they make it clear when interviewed or at some point of conversion request and make it clear.
Thank you!
Also, I know that plenty of college students manage to get days off so that they can attend classes. No one screams that it may hurt their business.
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RE: Stores Open on Thanksgiving or Christmas - 11/29/2008 10:25:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Requiring someone else to follow your beliefs would be cramming it down their throats. Expecting an employer not to make you break your beliefs is not.
Forcing the company to accommodate(as you later suggest)is cramming one's beliefs down the throat of the employer...
And of course one cannot use the excuse the company made them work so, the idea that the company forced anyone to break their beliefs doesn't have much merit since the responsibility is squarely and fully on the shoulders of the person holding the convictions.... That's what it means to have convictions... There aren't much if one must tailor the whole world to accommodate in order for one to fulfill them.
quote:
I have trouble believing that a business cannot run if a few people require off a particular day every week for religious beliefs.
Depends on the business....
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If it is that small maybe it should be closed on that day anyway then or the bosses who want it open should work that day.
Or they can hire people who don't place such requirements on them and those who have a conflict with their job can search for another...
quote:
Surely not everyone needs to work on say SUnday. Those who have religious reasons preventing them should have the right to have that as their day off.
They already have the right to not work at a job there doesn't require them to do so... Placing the burden on the company to undue... A job is not a right and this line of thinking starts making them a right...
quote:
Just like if someone always needs Saturday off or always needs Tuesday off for a religious belief and they make it clear when interviewed or at some point of conversion request and make it clear.
Different animal... If something is worked out prior great, wonderful, yet to force the company to accommodate is another issue...
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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