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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/21/2008 8:58:23 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
If you want to call the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, conviction, I would not disagree with that. But, if you go beyond that, and say that the way the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth is by convicting us of our sins, that I see no Scriptural support for.
OK, so if the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and by that process, we see ourselves including the sins we have committed which is THE TRUTH about ourselves, and are convicted by that truth. . . isn't that ultimately a consequence of the Holy Spirit's working?
(I'm not trying to argue for argument's sake but trying to wrap my puny mind around the topic which is vast.)
Anyway, let me know what you say. 
Close  ! The truth reveals the lie. It is the lie that binds us, and it is the truth that sets us free from the lie. True repentance is then giving up the lie that the truth has exposed, and taking hold of the truth.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/21/2008 10:58:43 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2080
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quote:
The truth reveals the lie.
OK - please be more specific.
The lie is ____________________________.
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/21/2008 11:17:36 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
The truth reveals the lie.
OK - please be more specific.
The lie is ____________________________.
The lie is always rooted in independence. Something, some area of our lives in which we have been deceived into believing that we do not need Jesus.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/22/2008 2:52:47 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
The truth reveals the lie.
OK - please be more specific.
The lie is ____________________________.
The lie is always rooted in independence. Something, some area of our lives in which we have been deceived into believing that we do not need Jesus.
Peace
OK, so I'll use 'me' for the example. Yesterday a friend called. She is a sister in the Lord. She started talking about a mutual friend who has chosen to leave her husband. I began talking about it with her, then changed the subject. When we got off the phone, I returned to prayer (where I had been when she called) and was convicted for having said something to her.
So this discussion (that we are having here) came up in my thoughts as well. I went to James and read "but each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."
So I'm trying to understand me and sin. I know I have not prayed for this friend (and her spouse) as I should have. In fact, when she finally told me about her leaving her spouse (I was last to be told because she knows I will not support her in her decision.) I confessed I had not prayed for them as I should have and that is to not believe God can and will change things. Anyway, is that what ALL sin ultimately is---not believing, trusting God with 'this' thing?
Part of the reason I do not 'pray' about things (or so I say) is because I know that God will ultimately do what is good, right and best in all situations and that my part is to accept His will, not to plead for my puny little idea of what may or may not be right.
Anyway, I digressed. And perhaps I've not made sense to you. But to me, it is all wrapped up in one thought regarding me, and sin, and conviction, etc.
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/22/2008 6:24:17 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
The truth reveals the lie.
OK - please be more specific.
The lie is ____________________________.
The lie is always rooted in independence. Something, some area of our lives in which we have been deceived into believing that we do not need Jesus.
Peace
So I'm trying to understand me and sin. But to me, it is all wrapped up in one thought regarding me, and sin, and conviction, etc.
I love your openness and honesty LL. The answer is the same for you and for your friend, and the answer is Jesus Christ. It is "...of Him and through Him and to Him"...I do not see LL in there anywhere  , do you? That is what Paul meant when he wrote...
"For me to live is Christ" Phil. 1:21
I know this is hard to believe...but it isn't about us and/or our sins. It is about Jesus Christ, and Christ's life being lived out in and through us. God is not dealing with man any longer based on our sins. From His point of view the sin issue between Him and man was settled by His Son on the cross 2000 years ago. To focus on our sins is to focus on the flesh, it is to be flesh-minded, but God's desire is that we be spiritually-minded.
The Holy Spirit always points us to Christ. Because it is as we abide in Christ that He renews our minds. He conforms us into His image...from glory to glory. God's glory is His character. He is developing the character of God in us. It is He that accomplishes that, not us. We cannot change ourselves, only God can. God gives...we receive.
To believe that God wants us to focus on ourselves and our should'ves, could'ves and would'ves...that is the lie. The lie is that it is about "me".
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 12:28:04 AM
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mysaviorjesus
Posts: 21
Joined: 11/20/2008
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This is a tough thread to follow, especially being very new to Christian, about 4 months now.
very true, the lie is about "me". but being sinful as we are, we will always have thoughts of the "me" and continue to sin. I think sin will always infest our mind and our heart until we die.
but yes, when I pray, I asked the Almighty God to fill me with the Holy Spirit and pray that the Holy Spirit will help me do God's will.
But John MacArthur mentioned something from a reference I do not recall. "Even with our BEST prayer, there is enough sin in it to damn the whole world."
_____________________________
XOVision 3.5" In-Dash DVD with Bluetooth (this radio is my grace from God)
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 8:51:45 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2191
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Here you go!
Rom 14:22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
1Th 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of {things} hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
I think what can happen, is that we set our minds to believe a certain thing and look for scriptural back up for our belief. We neglect to see the scriptures as a whole and miss the fullness of the message.
I see this happening from this point of view. I also see it as a somewhat dangerous, license to sin kind of thinking.
We feel conviction for a reason that is supposed to leads us to repentance. If we weren't to feel this we would never see the kingdom of Heaven. He left us with the HS for a reason. Conviction leads to discipline. He teaches us through conviction. If we didn't ever learn from our mistakes, we couldn't be His children. Conviction and repentance go hand in hand. We can't have one without the other.
If I may humbly suggest that we view this in the entirety of scripture, will it change your position or do you see it any differently?
BTW, it's good to see you, it's been awhile! 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 9:09:57 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Here you go!
Rom 14:22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
1Th 1:5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of {things} hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
I think what can happen, is that we set our minds to believe a certain thing and look for scriptural back up for our belief. We neglect to see the scriptures as a whole and miss the fullness of the message.
I see this happening from this point of view. I also see it as a somewhat dangerous, license to sin kind of thinking.
We feel conviction for a reason that is supposed to leads us to repentance. If we weren't to feel this we would never see the kingdom of Heaven. He left us with the HS for a reason. Conviction leads to discipline. He teaches us through conviction. If we didn't ever learn from our mistakes, we couldn't be His children. Conviction and repentance go hand in hand. We can't have one without the other.
If I may humbly suggest that we view this in the entirety of scripture, will it change your position or do you see it any differently?
BTW, it's good to see you, it's been awhile!
Good to see, read? you too DD.
You could not be more right about looking at things through the entirety of Scripture. That is exactly how we end up with these erronious beliefs that have crept into Christianity. It happens exactly as you have stated, we begin with a premise...in this case the premise is that the Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins.
If our premise is off then all that comes after will be off. It is obvious that this premise is founded on the misinterpretation and then the misapplication of John 16:8. And then we go off searching for scriptural support for that erronious premise.
None of the verses that you list is speaking about believers being convicted by the Holy Spirit of sins.
Can I use your own words against you? Will you still love me in Christ???? 
If I may humbly suggest that we view this in the entirety of scripture, will it change your position or do you see it any differently?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 9:29:14 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mysaviorjesus
This is a tough thread to follow, especially being very new to Christian, about 4 months now.
very true, the lie is about "me". but being sinful as we are, we will always have thoughts of the "me" and continue to sin. I think sin will always infest our mind and our heart until we die.
but yes, when I pray, I asked the Almighty God to fill me with the Holy Spirit and pray that the Holy Spirit will help me do God's will.
But John MacArthur mentioned something from a reference I do not recall. "Even with our BEST prayer, there is enough sin in it to damn the whole world."
Welcome to the family brother! I read your testimony in another thread and it has blessed me deeply. Thank you.
Yes, we will always have this conflict between what we were and what we now are.
Galatians 5:17
"For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want."
We know that ultimately Christ will prevail, and that what we now we are will win out over what we were. And because we do know that, we can thank God in all things. Remembering that God is working all things together for good, and that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 3:57:36 PM
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LivingParadox
Posts: 926
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
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We should all be thankful of "conviction" as Christians as that is one of the signs that the Holy Spirit is speaking into our lives. It's when we sin and we aren't convicted that our hearts have started to harden. Rejoice and be glad when the Holy Spirit convicts and there is no condemenation involved but instead it is correction.
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 6:28:59 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2080
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
The truth reveals the lie.
OK - please be more specific.
The lie is ____________________________.
The lie is always rooted in independence. Something, some area of our lives in which we have been deceived into believing that we do not need Jesus.
Peace
So I'm trying to understand me and sin. But to me, it is all wrapped up in one thought regarding me, and sin, and conviction, etc.
I love your openness and honesty LL. The answer is the same for you and for your friend, and the answer is Jesus Christ. It is "...of Him and through Him and to Him"...I do not see LL in there anywhere , do you? That is what Paul meant when he wrote...
"For me to live is Christ" Phil. 1:21
I know this is hard to believe...but it isn't about us and/or our sins. It is about Jesus Christ, and Christ's life being lived out in and through us. God is not dealing with man any longer based on our sins. From His point of view the sin issue between Him and man was settled by His Son on the cross 2000 years ago. To focus on our sins is to focus on the flesh, it is to be flesh-minded, but God's desire is that we be spiritually-minded.
The Holy Spirit always points us to Christ. Because it is as we abide in Christ that He renews our minds. He conforms us into His image...from glory to glory. God's glory is His character. He is developing the character of God in us. It is He that accomplishes that, not us. We cannot change ourselves, only God can. God gives...we receive.
To believe that God wants us to focus on ourselves and our should'ves, could'ves and would'ves...that is the lie. The lie is that it is about "me".
Peace
I responded to this last night---my post must have gotten lost in cyberspace???
Anyway, where is repentance, URF?
Repentance is necessary for new birth but are you saying that after that, there is no place for repentance?
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 9:46:55 PM
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19ramman85
Posts: 134
Joined: 4/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: 19ramman85
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Rom 14:22 goes to support ALL the differing views on this topic. If one doesn't feel conviction from the HS, is it erroneous?
1TH 1:5 stresses the importance of using scripture in its entirety and how we should view them and allow(poor choice of words ) the conviction from God's Word.
Hbr 11:1 Stresses that conviction is not man made. Sin is man completed. Our hope comes from the UNSEEN to forgive us of our sins, once confessed and repented of.
Does that make a little more sense to you?
There is no doubt that Believers do experience conviction. On that we do agree.
Peace
Yes- as long as us Christians remeber that "convicting", doesn't neccessarily mean - condemnation!
see Link
-charles
Or even that conviction means the same as convicting, convict, convicts, or to be convicted!
see LINK
Yup - ur right!
But ya see - thats the jist of the problem. Some of us will take that word - "convict", and w/o really looking into the passage, and or the definition/usage of the word - think otherwise, instead of the obvious.
Then sometime later - we get a "Duh", moment!
-charles
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 11:17:59 PM
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LifeisGalatians220
Posts: 51
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Charleston, SC
Status: offline
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Hey URF~
Great thread. It made me think and look again to what the word says.
I'm coming to this with the belief that the new heart and new spirit prophesied by Jeremiah and Ezekiel began to be fulfilled at Pentecost but is still yet to be totally fulfilled for Israel.
Ezekiel 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29 "Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
30 "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
God placed His Spirit in me and credited me with the righteousness of Jesus Christ and "as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed my transgressions from me" and "my sin He will remember no more". As I read His word and His statutes, I want more and more to want to walk in the light of obediance to Jesus, but when I fall short, I also see my sins as loathsome for testing the patience of my holy, just, and loving Father, and thank Him for His patience and mercy, and not squashing me like a bug when He had every right to.
Love you guys.
Blessings,
Melanie
_____________________________
Victory is not me overcoming sin
Victory is Jesus overcoming me!!!
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 11:45:25 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
The truth reveals the lie.
OK - please be more specific.
The lie is ____________________________.
The lie is always rooted in independence. Something, some area of our lives in which we have been deceived into believing that we do not need Jesus.
Peace
So I'm trying to understand me and sin. But to me, it is all wrapped up in one thought regarding me, and sin, and conviction, etc.
I love your openness and honesty LL. The answer is the same for you and for your friend, and the answer is Jesus Christ. It is "...of Him and through Him and to Him"...I do not see LL in there anywhere , do you? That is what Paul meant when he wrote...
"For me to live is Christ" Phil. 1:21
I know this is hard to believe...but it isn't about us and/or our sins. It is about Jesus Christ, and Christ's life being lived out in and through us. God is not dealing with man any longer based on our sins. From His point of view the sin issue between Him and man was settled by His Son on the cross 2000 years ago. To focus on our sins is to focus on the flesh, it is to be flesh-minded, but God's desire is that we be spiritually-minded.
The Holy Spirit always points us to Christ. Because it is as we abide in Christ that He renews our minds. He conforms us into His image...from glory to glory. God's glory is His character. He is developing the character of God in us. It is He that accomplishes that, not us. We cannot change ourselves, only God can. God gives...we receive.
To believe that God wants us to focus on ourselves and our should'ves, could'ves and would'ves...that is the lie. The lie is that it is about "me".
Peace
I responded to this last night---my post must have gotten lost in cyberspace???
Anyway, where is repentance, URF?
Repentance is necessary for new birth but are you saying that after that, there is no place for repentance?
Repentance is the most exciting part of being a Christian. It is recognizing how we are made, how God intended us to function, and being restored to a relationship of mutual interavailability with our Creator. The same relationship that Jesus Christ and God the Father enjoyed, a relationship in which we are prepared to let God be God in our lives.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/23/2008 11:57:44 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LifeisGalatians220
Hey URF~
Great thread. It made me think and look again to what the word says.
I'm coming to this with the belief that the new heart and new spirit prophesied by Jeremiah and Ezekiel began to be fulfilled at Pentecost but is still yet to be totally fulfilled for Israel.
Ezekiel 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29 "Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
30 "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
God placed His Spirit in me and credited me with the righteousness of Jesus Christ and "as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed my transgressions from me" and "my sin He will remember no more". As I read His word and His statutes, I want more and more to want to walk in the light of obediance to Jesus, but when I fall short, I also see my sins as loathsome for testing the patience of my holy, just, and loving Father, and thank Him for His patience and mercy, and not squashing me like a bug when He had every right to.
Love you guys.
Blessings,
Melanie
I hear you. What I was, and that which I am still capable of in and of myself, even as a redeemed Child of God, is indeed loathesome to me. And it drives me to my Lord and Savior who alone can save me from myself.
Thank you for the Ezekiel 36 quotes...very relevant. Galatians 5:19 confirms this, "...The acts of the sinful nature are obvious". It then lists the acts, but since they are obvious...I will not. Bless you.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 11/24/2008 12:16:39 AM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/24/2008 10:33:45 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
So I'm trying to understand me and sin. I know I have not prayed for this friend (and her spouse) as I should have. In fact, when she finally told me about her leaving her spouse (I was last to be told because she knows I will not support her in her decision.) I confessed I had not prayed for them as I should have and that is to not believe God can and will change things. Anyway, is that what ALL sin ultimately is---not believing, trusting God with 'this' thing?
In reading back over your post I wanted to add that I am in complete agreement with what you said that I highlighted above. Yes, all sin is unbelief, and all sins are the result of that unbelief.
We have been born-again spiritually, but we have not been born-again in our soul or our bodies. Our spirit has been united with the Holy Spirit, and there is conflict between the new us and the sin (unbelief) that still indwells our fallen humanity.
God is no longer dealing with our old self. He considers it dead. He is now only dealing with our new nature. Satan cannot touch our spirit, we are sealed. He can only appeal to our old self.
There are Christians who spend their whole lives trying to understand their sins, in the hope of, in some way, gaining victory over them. When the truth is that their sins are merely a result of unbelief. We cannot "clean up" our unbelief...we can only begin to believe.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/24/2008 4:42:45 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I am sorry that I neglected you brother. Are you saying that the Apostle Paul is the Holy Spirit?
No, UR. I am saying that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit who wrote the following through Paul just as he wrote all the other Scriptures who happily assert as proof:
For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter - 2 Cor. 7:9b-11
Paul isn't merely stating an opinion here.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: The Holy Spirit convicts Believers of their sins? - 11/24/2008 4:54:40 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2080
Status: offline
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URF,
Perhaps I am only rowing with one oar, but I'm truthful. So where does conviction come from (in your understanding) if not from the working of the Holy Spirit in me?
So I'll speak from my life again. When I got off the phone and was convicted for my willingness to speak 'about' my friend and failure to 'faithfully pray for' my friend, WHERE does that conviction come from? I've always believed it to be God in me showing me where I've erred. How do you understand and explain this?
And BTW, I'm thankful to have one oar. LL
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