|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Judgmental Christians on the warpath!!!! - 11/17/2008 1:59:24 PM
|
|
|
markvh
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
OK, I know this is a hot topic, but here goes. All churches seem to suffer from a religious attitude to some extent. The effectiveness of a church's outreach is directly tied to this issue. On a personal level, it seems that Jesus is addressing it in 1 Corinthians 11 (see below) when he references how we recognize the body of Christ. I think it is agreed that the body of Christ means all believers, but I have heard this passage mis-applied in a number of ways. How can we do a better job of walking in forgiveness and avoiding the condemnation that is spoken of here?
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
I have a specific challenge in front of me as leaders in a particular church, and members of my family are very outspoken about how each other should be raising their children (in the nurture and admonition of the Lord,...) Shouldn't we all be looking inward more than outward for opportunities to improve??..-and perhaps working WITH each other? This is what I need help with today. How is that deftly accomplished?
< Message edited by markvh -- 11/17/2008 5:20:58 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/17/2008 2:20:55 PM
|
|
|
dianetavegia
Posts: 2032
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Southern Baptist, Non Calvinist, Pro Life Ga. girl
Status: offline
|
I disagree with your interpretation of those few words.
I believe 'not discerning the Lord's body' implies people eat and drink as if it were any meal and not a supper set forth as a remembrance of what Christ Jesus did for us.
Christians are told to TEST and JUDGE. We are also to go to our brother in Christ when they are caught in sin, etc.
"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" - Tit. 1:10-13
"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them..." - Eph. 5:5-7
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. " - Eph. 5:11
"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" - Tit. 1:10-13
'And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." - 2 Thes. 3:14-15
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/17/2008 3:23:59 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
I disagree with your interpretation of those few words.
I believe 'not discerning the Lord's body' implies people eat and drink as if it were any meal and not a supper set forth as a remembrance of what Christ Jesus did for us. Sorry Diane, but I cannot agree with that intrepretation, at least not as the whole intrepretation.
The chapter starts off talking about how we are to act toward each other and in the congregational meetings. Then it talks about communion, and then in chapter 12 Paul AGAIN talks about spiritual gifts and the body:
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
So in the context of the book itself, the body is the assembled group of believers, and by extension, ALL believers.
IF we do not see ourselves as an integral functioning part of the local assembly, as attached as my hand is to my arm, we do not properly discern (see) the body.
Bread and wine has always (at least going back to Abraham) been considered in the mid east a covenant meal. You eat together, you form a covenant. Covenant relationships (marriage like commitment) are what ties the local body/community of believers together.
Paul says else where:
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
A joint is the coming together of 2 individual members. What makes it a "joint" are the ligament bands of covenant commitment tying one to another. The body is strengthened when those bands are strong and disjointed when they are weak.
This is the only intrepretation I see being supported by the context.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 11/17/2008 3:30:08 PM >
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/17/2008 4:08:09 PM
|
|
|
LCannon
Posts: 1228
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: offline
|
Judgment of one's eternal salvation is totally the Almighty's disgression for only the individual and He knows their eternal state for certain. However, when a person claims to be redeemed by the same blood as me it's my privilege and responsibility to affirm our obedience to that blood and grow together. If they're stagnant or comfortable in their disobedience I want to know that so that I can gauge my level of interaction.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/17/2008 4:29:02 PM
|
|
|
markvh
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
... in chapter 12 Paul AGAIN talks about spiritual gifts and the body:
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
So in the context of the book itself, the body is the assembled group of believers, and by extension, ALL believers.
IF we do not see ourselves as an integral functioning part of the local assembly, as attached as my hand is to my arm, we do not properly discern (see) the body.
Bread and wine has always (at least going back to Abraham) been considered in the mid east a covenant meal. You eat together, you form a covenant. Covenant relationships (marriage like commitment) are what ties the local body/community of believers together.
Paul says else where:
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
A joint is the coming together of 2 individual members. What makes it a "joint" are the ligament bands of covenant commitment tying one to another. The body is strengthened when those bands are strong and disjointed when they are weak.
This is the only intrepretation I see being supported by the context.
Dave,
I feel real confident about your interpretation. It seems that many times, when we get closer to the "spirit" of what Scripture is really saying in a particular passage, and a light goes on, and we begin to "see" w/more clarity what is being said, the outcome is more about what we can do together as a body, rather than some type of measuring stick that can be used to compare ourselves to one another. I have to say with great honesty, I have had many more opportunities to grow Spiritually by being open-minded toward other believers than I have had occasion to correct them. I once read a quote that said, "the lowest form of communication is criticism." This has helped me at times. I would guess that among the gifts of the Spirit, the body of Christ is not lacking for critics. (tongue-in-cheek)
The challenge is to consistently apply Scripture in a fashion that makes us an inspiration to those around us, rather than deflate their momentum and cause more wounds.
I have a specific challenge in front of me as leaders in a particular church, and members of my family are very outspoken about how each other should be raising their children (in the nurture and admonition of the Lord,...) and I would love to be able to let the Holy Spirit do the separating of the joints and the marrow, but I'm not sure where to point yet. I do feel that this passage is an integral part, though, and I appreciate your contribution.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/17/2008 5:17:35 PM
|
|
|
markvh
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
Judgment of one's eternal salvation is totally the Almighty's disgression for only the individual and He knows their eternal state for certain. However, when a person claims to be redeemed by the same blood as me it's my privilege and responsibility to affirm our obedience to that blood and grow together. If they're stagnant or comfortable in their disobedience I want to know that so that I can gauge my level of interaction.
Certainly! That's the rub, is when we deem ourselves judge, jury, and executioner at the first piece of gossip. I am amazed that even within an extended family, these questions are not asked lovingly, with wisdom, but hearsay is plugged in as truth w/o trying to understand what goes through one's mind when they make decisions. My particular experience is referencing not stagnancy or disobedience, rather a different interpretation of Truth, and assumptions made w/o trying to communicate or understand one another. (Happens way too often!!)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/17/2008 6:12:19 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
My view is that Paul is talking about the Passover Seder for this is what the "last supper" was. Therefore, I believe there are probably two ways of looking at this. For the person of Jewish heritage to observe the passover while at the same time rejecting The Lamb of Adonai, is to bring judgement upon themselves for the Messiah is represented in the Seder. For the Gentile, the temptation is to view Passover as just a party, like the celebrations to the gods. Therefore, everyone Jew and Gentile needs to acknowledge the Messiah as they take part in the Passover Seder and recognize it's purpose, to remind us how Adonai has provided for us.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/18/2008 12:26:34 PM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
The interpretation that "body" in this passage refers to the Church is totally ridiculous. It does not fit the context which is explicitly the elements of the Lord's Supper and the Church has never in 2000 years understood it in any other way. Applying this passage to the Church as Body would be a very dangerous weapon for Christ to drop into the hands of sinful men and I am puzzled about how the OP connects this verse to being more caring within the Church.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/18/2008 12:42:26 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Applying this passage to the Church as Body would be a very dangerous weapon for Christ to drop into the hands of sinful men How so?
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/18/2008 12:47:36 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
The interpretation that "body" in this passage refers to the Church is totally ridiculous. It does not fit the context which is explicitly the elements of the Lord's Supper and the Church has never in 2000 years understood it in any other way. It is ridiculous only if you seperate the last part of chapter 11 from both the first part of the chapter and then again from chapter 12. It is sandwiched between sections talking about how we relate to each other. Indeed, chapter 13 which is sandwiched between 2 parts dealing with supernatural gifts ALSO ties into how to relate. Chapters 10-14 ALL have to be taken as person to person relationship issues.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/18/2008 12:48:32 PM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the false definition is promoting discriminating whether or not this person or that person is a part of the Body. Am I missing something? "Discerning the Body"? Discerning the Church? Who is and who ain't?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/18/2008 12:51:35 PM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
The interpretation that "body" in this passage refers to the Church is totally ridiculous. It does not fit the context which is explicitly the elements of the Lord's Supper and the Church has never in 2000 years understood it in any other way. It is ridiculous only if you seperate the last part of chapter 11 from both the first part of the chapter and then again from chapter 12. It is sandwiched between sections talking about how we relate to each other. Indeed, chapter 13 which is sandwiched between 2 parts dealing with supernatural gifts ALSO ties into how to relate. Chapters 10-14 ALL have to be taken as person to person relationship issues.
All these sandwiches are totally unnecessary. We're in the immediate vicinity of the Institution of the Lord's Supper, here. What could be a clearer context than all this convolutive buffet?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/18/2008 7:53:59 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
From what I can determine, the term "Lord's Supper" only appears in this epistle. We read of the great supper of Adonai in revelation, but this refers to the carian feasting on the dead bodies of the slain. Therefore, what is meant is speculative, if one depends only on the Scriptures. I connected it with Passover because that seems to be the usual connection to "the bread and the cup". However, as I stated, it is not called "the Lord's Supper" in the gospel accounts.
The term translated supper refers to a formal evening meal. Reference to a new tradition is extrabiblical, in my opinion. It appears to me that Paul could very well be refering to the traditional meal following the end of Shabbat and Paul is saying that those who are starving after a day of Shabbat discussion should go home rather than be rude. He also refers to drunkenness. These problems probably arose due to the misunderstanding of the difference between the biblical feasts and those celebrated in honor other so called gods. Therefore, to break bread or observe a biblical feast in the same manner as one would for the other so called gods would be blasphemious.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/19/2008 6:39:33 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the false definition is promoting discriminating whether or not this person or that person is a part of the Body. Am I missing something? "Discerning the Body"? Discerning the Church? Who is and who ain't? No, it is understanding (discerning) the local congregation you are part of and how you function in it. Who you are in covenant relations with and how that works. It is how the body works as an organic whole.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians on the warpath!!!! - 11/19/2008 8:35:55 AM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: markvh
Shouldn't we all be looking inward more than outward for opportunities to improve??..-and perhaps working WITH each other? This is what I need help with today. How is that deftly accomplished?
If by looking inward you mean looking to the indwelling Christ, I would agree. Christ is the head, and we are only being used of Him when we are presenting ourselves to Him for His use.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/19/2008 10:59:50 AM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the false definition is promoting discriminating whether or not this person or that person is a part of the Body. Am I missing something? "Discerning the Body"? Discerning the Church? Who is and who ain't? No, it is understanding (discerning) the local congregation you are part of and how you function in it. Who you are in covenant relations with and how that works. It is how the body works as an organic whole.
However you may interpret "body" to "church" in this passage, you are wrong. Discerning the body mean discerning Christ's flesh which was torn. If a person cannot come to the Lord's Table able to discern that what he/she eats is the body of Christ, that person comes in an unworthy manner. Your interpretation is a recent innovation and is error.
Bluethread,
I'm not a Messianist, I'm a Christian. The Passover interpretation has no meaning to me. The sacrament of the Lord's Supper is firmly rooted in Old Testament, fully revealed in New Testament, and has been the unquestioned interpretation of the Church for 2000 years. It is a settled issue.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/19/2008 12:27:44 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
knox: are you even looking at the context? Or are you just reciting dogma?quote:
I'm not a Messianist, I'm a Christian. That is interesting since they mean the same thing: a follower of the Annointed One.
eta: What is your understanding of covenant relationships? (between believers)
< Message edited by DaveW -- 11/19/2008 12:36:04 PM >
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/19/2008 1:40:55 PM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
knox: are you even looking at the context? Or are you just reciting dogma?
I am looking at the context and I am practically reciting dogma. What's your problem? Is there something wrong with dogma? Do you think the historical understanding of the Church has no meaning? Did the Holy Spirit bypass the Church for 2000 years and just begin to exegete this passage to individuals in this generation alone?
quote:
That is interesting since they mean the same thing: a follower of the Annointed One.
No, they don't mean the same thing just because the names are variations between Greek and Hebrew. Are Christians and Messianists the same? Ask them. They say, no.
quote:
eta: What is your understanding of covenant relationships? (between believers)
In what aspect? That's a big subject.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/19/2008 3:30:12 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
There is LOTS wrong with dogma. We must live by faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and is personal, it is not just mental ascent to a statement, even if that statement is 100% biblical. God has to individually speak it to you to make it faith. We hear God speak to us many ways but the primary one is thru scripture study.
I do know the historic church got many things wrong. (Replacement theology is just one example) Over the last 500 years God has been slowly restoring many of the things lost. It was not the Holy Spirit bypassing anyone - it was people being hard of heart and not listening, resulting in them drifting farther and farther off course. If we would listen, the Holy Spirit will exegete scripture to EVERY generation.
Christianity is just the gentile version of Messianic Judiasm. Those who say differently are just being closed minded and not listening to the Holy Spirit. (see above)
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/19/2008 7:59:50 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
I am looking at the context and I am practically reciting dogma. What's your problem? Is there something wrong with dogma? Do you think the historical understanding of the Church has no meaning? Did the Holy Spirit bypass the Church for 2000 years and just begin to exegete this passage to individuals in this generation alone?
Dogma is an assemblage of doctrine and doctrine is that which is derived from Scripture. Therefore, dogma might be useful, but is not equal to Scripture. Also, the value of one's dogma is derived from that on which it is based. So, the dogma which most closely matches the Scriptures is of the greatest value. Therefore, if one expects their dogma to be respected one must make the connection between ones dogma and the Scriptures. Otherwise one is merely practicing propaganda, the imparting of information without justification through force of authority or repetition. The later, in my opinion, is not in line with biblical teachings on proper discourse.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/19/2008 10:43:35 PM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
There is LOTS wrong with dogma. We must live by faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and is personal, it is not just mental ascent to a statement, even if that statement is 100% biblical. God has to individually speak it to you to make it faith. We hear God speak to us many ways but the primary one is thru scripture study.
Sorry, but I don't share your views that dogma precludes faith, but it isn't important anyway. To the point at hand...
quote:
I do know the historic church got many things wrong. (Replacement theology is just one example) Over the last 500 years God has been slowly restoring many of the things lost. It was not the Holy Spirit bypassing anyone - it was people being hard of heart and not listening, resulting in them drifting farther and farther off course. If we would listen, the Holy Spirit will exegete scripture to EVERY generation.
I happen to think he has been doing so for 2000 years. It doesn't hurt to "listen" to what he has already exegeted so he won't have to chew his cub more than twice. Still, I don't buy into your views of recent restoration of things lost. Certainly in the time of the Reformers, but I'm afraid the Church in the West has been in decadent decline for some time, now. I have no confidence in modern pop preachers and candy cane churches. All one has to do is judge them by their fruits, an almost thoroughly broken society. The more money churches today throw at program and new methods of ministry, the worse the nation gets. The Reformers transformed Europe without the glitz of our time; simply by doing the foolish thing they were instructed to do in Scripture, preach the Gospel. None of them could get a job in today's churches-in-the-know. No, Dave. I think I'll stick by the faith and the hearing of God's voice of the church that endured persecutions and overturned heresies, not this modern church with its paperback theology, pasty preachers, which has allowed all the heresies to come back in full force.
quote:
Christianity is just the gentile version of Messianic Judiasm. Those who say differently are just being closed minded and not listening to the Holy Spirit.
Understand, Dave, that all fallacies are reflexive in nature. An ad hominem can fly back in your face. Let's try: "Christianity is Christianity and Messianism is Judaism. Those who say differently are just being closed minded and not listening to the Holy Spirit."
You see how silly it is. I'll make a deal with you. Let's both stick to the issues and try not to trump one another with our total lack of authority.
Now, just what is wrong with the interpretation that "body" in the verse refers to the sacrifice of Jesus and does not refer to the Church? How is it that all those people have been wrong for so long. I think you innovators at least owe us conservative, orthodox, dullards that?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/20/2008 12:57:06 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
I happen to think he has been doing so for 2000 years. It doesn't hurt to "listen" to what he has already exegeted so he won't have to chew his cub more than twice. Still, I don't buy into your views of recent restoration of things lost. Certainly in the time of the Reformers, but I'm afraid the Church in the West has been in decadent decline for some time, now. I have no confidence in modern pop preachers and candy cane churches. All one has to do is judge them by their fruits, an almost thoroughly broken society. The more money churches today throw at program and new methods of ministry, the worse the nation gets. The Reformers transformed Europe without the glitz of our time; simply by doing the foolish thing they were instructed to do in Scripture, preach the Gospel. None of them could get a job in today's churches-in-the-know. No, Dave. I think I'll stick by the faith and the hearing of God's voice of the church that endured persecutions and overturned heresies, not this modern church with its paperback theology, pasty preachers, which has allowed all the heresies to come back in full force.
If I am not mistaken "the reformers" were in no more agreement about things than we are in these forums. In fact most of the various authoritarian structures we now call denominations came from disagreements between "the reformers". These were all trying to reform the doctrines of the roman church. Another alternative, now that we all have access to the Scriptures translated into written form in our language, is to study it for ourselves as the believers in Paul's day did. Those believers did not all have their own copies, but copies were available at every synogogue and unlike in the roman church and those of many of the reformers, one need not be a priest to read, hear and interpret it for oneselves. Young men were even encouraged to read and interpret the Scriptures when they turned 13.
So, there have been people who have engaged in open discussion of the Scriptures throughout the ages. They were just demonized by the roman church and reformers, who believed open discussion should be reserved for the enlightened classes. After all they couldn't have those poor souls departing from established dogma.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/20/2008 9:40:14 AM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, there have been people who have engaged in open discussion of the Scriptures throughout the ages. They were just demonized by the roman church and reformers, who believed open discussion should be reserved for the enlightened classes. After all they couldn't have those poor souls departing from established dogma.
I agree with your assessment of the high medieval Papal church, but your history of the Reformation is faulty. The Reformers fought hard for vulgar translations and popular dissemination of the Bible, i.e. Wycliffe, Tyndale, Hus, Luther, and Calvin's Geneva Academy, (established to teach literacy for the express purpose of engagement in the Bible). The purpose was so that the members could check excesses from their leaders, which happened often. The Reformation was powered by literacy in scripture. Denominationalism arose as a result of the literacy the Reformers encouraged. Men literally died for this purpose, see the Cranmer, Tyndale, and the Lollard persecutions under Henry VIII for an easy refutation to your statement.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/20/2008 9:44:36 AM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
BTW, Bluethread. Are you a Messianist? If so, would you consider Messianism to be Christianity. 100% of all Messianists I know do not, but consider it a part of Judaism. That's my understanding.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Judgmental Christians - 11/20/2008 11:34:32 AM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 3636
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
BTW, Bluethread. Are you a Messianist? If so, would you consider Messianism to be Christianity. 100% of all Messianists I know do not, but consider it a part of Judaism. That's my understanding.
There are many extreme (and unrelated) sects of Christianity that consider only their particular denomination to be Christian. A small number of messianic sects fall in to this trap, but this does not define the messianic movement. There are many groups of Messianics who have very orthodox Christian beliefs and embrace their non messianic brothers and sisters in Christ.
Side note: The pastor of the church I grew up in (a non-Mesianic Scottish gentile) served on the board of the Jews for Jesus for several decades.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Christianity is just the gentile version of Messianic Judiasm. Those who say differently are just being closed minded and not listening to the Holy Spirit. (see above)
This statement is on the verge of being completely heretical. While I would agree that most Christians would do well to understand the Jewish roots of Christianity (and most do not), it is completely out of line to suggest that non Messianic Christianity is somehow inferior to Messianic Judaism. Most Christians do not accept the doctrines of Messianics, NOT because they "are just being closed minded and not listening to the Holy Spirit", but because they see in the Messianic movement the hints of the Judiazing that Paul so clearly warned about and believe that it represents a doctrinal error. While I believe that there are good and biblically solid Messianic churches (I know of a few personally), I do not believe they represent a form of Christianity that is superior to the good and bibilcially solid churches that are not part of the Messianic movement. And while I do believe God calls some to the Messianic movement, he does not call everyone to the Messianic movement and some would be "not listening to the Holy Spirit" if they choose join a Messianic church. The extreme fridges of the Messianic movement demonstrate aptly that people can be Messianics and not be "listening to the Holy Spirit"; in the extreme sects you can be a member of the church in good standing and not even be saved (i.e. openly rejecting Jesus as the Messiah)
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
