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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/22/2008 7:23:22 PM
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SonicStudent
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
I don't know when the day or hour will be, but it seems that it may take Israel to be knocked well out of their comfort and fear for their existence before they call out for salvation. Isn't it often times like this that we all cry out?
Knowing the pressure that will be on Israel towards the end, I just can't see them turning to Christ through an intellectual decision if you know what I mean.
Sonic
Yes, I know what you mean, but from previous post, it almost seemed as though someone was saying that Israel is calling the shots, that they will decide when Christ comes back....and thats not how it is.
No, your right there. it's more about Israel loosing control than it is about them in some way calling the shots or dictating anything.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/22/2008 8:24:11 PM
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bob97
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Abby...when you came to Christ was it you that decided to accept Him as you savor or was it the drawing of God bringing you to you knees that allowed you to finally ask Him into your heart...where you submitted you will to His?
I hope you’ll say that you who finally understood what a wretched sinner you were and said Lord please accept me and forgive me.
This is what Israel does…hemmed in on all sides…facing total destruction…their pride gone and finally falling on their knees… proclaiming Christ to be God and their Messiah.
No…they don’t control anything other than the ability to confess and call for divine help.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/22/2008 8:32:43 PM
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SonicStudent
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It always seems to be this way I think! When mans pride has run out. When there is nothing we can do. When there is no other place to go but on our faces. 'Then', we find our humility. Why? Because it's then we see how small we are and how in need of help we are. Also, it leaves no glory or boasting for us, but brings glory to God.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/22/2008 8:55:10 PM
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bob97
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We give up our will and accept God's will...we finally understand we don't control anything and that knowledge is such a blessing. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/22/2008 10:49:35 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, SonicStudent.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
I don't know when the day or hour will be, but it seems that it may take Israel to be knocked well out of their comfort and fear for their existence before they call out for salvation. Isn't it often times like this that we all cry out?
Knowing the pressure that will be on Israel towards the end, I just can't see them turning to Christ through an intellectual decision if you know what I mean.
Sonic
Here's another consideration. While it is true that the Scriptures say that no one knows the day nor the hour, we also don't know how long it will take Isra'el to come to the point when they will cry out to God for His Messiah! Apparently it may take a while since 2/3 of them will fall prey to their enemies and only a remnant will survive!
They are extremely good at being stubborn about the Messiah; consider that we're closing on 2000 years that they've stubbornly resisted their King! While some of that might be out of fear since they suffered in Europe and Asia at the hands of those who claimed the name of Christ, there's a good deal of resistance to Him because He didn't fit into their little box of who the Messiah was to be and what the Messiah was supposed to do.
That said, I agree with you that it won't be through an "intellectual decision"; I believe it will be a decision and an act of desperation!
Oh, and Isra'el is not "calling the shots," as AbbyGrace said, but God never sent Isra'el a judge to deliver them until they had first cried out to Him to deliver them! (See the pattern of the judges in Judges 2:10-19.) The "Judge of the whole earth" will be no different for them. (BTW, did you know that the main duty of a king is to be a judge? He is the equivalent of a supreme court for a monarchy.)
God is calling the shots because right now Isra'el has been generally BLINDED to the truth and to the Truth! (John 14:6) But, when He is ready, they will begin to see, and Hallelu-YAH! They are INDEED beginning to recognize that Yeshua` is the Messiah! I think we should be in urgent prayer for Isra'el because they NEED to see how much they lack without Him and that can only be done when God removes the scales from their eyes!
Retrobyter
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/22/2008 11:23:34 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Here's another consideration. While it is true that the Scriptures say that no one knows the day nor the hour, we also don't know how long it will take Isra'el to come to the point when they will cry out to God for His Messiah! Apparently it may take a while since 2/3 of them will fall prey to their enemies and only a remnant will survive!
As you say they are pretty stubborn and it seems will continue to be so because once the real pressure starts it still takes 3 ½ years to persuade them of the truth. Like you say 2/3’s of them are stubborn to the point of death.
There again maybe that 1/3 is the body that God wanted in the first place because it is those who He will bring through the fire and refine. They are the ones who will call upon the LORD...Amen!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/23/2008 5:26:26 PM
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SonicStudent
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Here's another consideration. While it is true that the Scriptures say that no one knows the day nor the hour, we also don't know how long it will take Isra'el to come to the point when they will cry out to God for His Messiah! Apparently it may take a while since 2/3 of them will fall prey to their enemies and only a remnant will survive!
As you say they are pretty stubborn and it seems will continue to be so because once the real pressure starts it still takes 3 ½ years to persuade them of the truth. Like you say 2/3’s of them are stubborn to the point of death.
There again maybe that 1/3 is the body that God wanted in the first place because it is those who He will bring through the fire and refine. They are the ones who will call upon the LORD...Amen!
Bob
Hi Bob, Retro, and Abbey.
I think that as with Christianity or any religion to be honest, a very high majority is religious and very into an impersonal form of their faith. Or very into rules, formulas and structures. But it is always a smaller amount that looks beyond the trappings of their religion, and truly look for answers and the truth with all their hearts. It's these that will eventually see sense, see truth and see that this rejection of Messiah is based on fear and hatred and not on reason.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/23/2008 5:29:57 PM
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SonicStudent
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And it looks like that will only be one third, and then only after much pain of judgement and radical preaching from the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 that will be busy also.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/23/2008 5:43:40 PM
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SonicStudent
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I guess your gonna get a mixed answer on that question depending on your position on pre - mid - post rapture and dependant on when these two witnesses preach within the trib.
My personal view is we will be 'freshly whipped up!' - as I believe that we'll see the two witnesses ministry begin 'after' the fullness of the gentiles have come in, and attention goes back to grafting the natural olive branches onto the natural olive tree.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/23/2008 6:06:10 PM
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SonicStudent
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Paul makes it plain to the gentiles that were boasting that because Israel had rejected the gospel, they were saved, that indeed Israel were at the moment blind for our sakes, but that there would come a time when all the gentiles that were going to believe were saved, that God would then graft Israel back into the truth and the true vine. Turning His attention back to Israel, and removing that blindness. So Israel too would receive the gospel at the end.
ROMANS 11: 25, For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/23/2008 6:09:54 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
Paul makes it plain to the gentiles that were boasting that because Israel had rejected the gospel, they were saved, that indeed Israel were at the moment blind for our sakes, but that there would come a time when all the gentiles that were going to believe were saved, that God would then graft Israel back into the truth and the true vine. Turning His attention back to Israel, and removing that blindness. So Israel too would receive the gospel at the end.
ROMANS 11: 25, For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Got it, I was thinking about something else.  But, Thank you.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 11/30/2008 11:19:34 PM
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bob97
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That head light you see coming down the track is Iran...
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran's official news agency says Tehran has proposed building joint light-water nuclear power plants with neighboring Arab countries.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 12/7/2008 8:01:36 PM
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bob97
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Had a discussion with a Baptist minister from England today…it was interesting and here are a couple of points:
1: The Church in England loses approximately 1500 bodies per year.
2: Within ten years both England and France will be Muslin countries.
This point is really scary…if we lose England what next? But then we know what the future is.
Where are you brother Mark? 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 12/8/2008 12:36:21 AM
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bob97
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Yes it is Roy...it's almost breathtaking to see it take place. When you look at fact like these it makes it suddenly start to become very real.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 12/8/2008 12:37:54 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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The amazing thing is most...even in the Church don't see this coming.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 12/8/2008 4:43:42 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
"Lift up your heads; your REDEMPTION draws nigh!"
Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 12/8/2008 5:16:47 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
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I hope I have this wrong but is the popular thought that Muslims are tied to the end-times as a force connected to Satan? I'm sure the 'bad apples' in Christianity (goats) are going to see torment from Heaven much more than a Muslim who has been "doing unto others" in a righteous manner. I'm not even sure God would judge on the basis of what earthly religion anybody followed, those are just religions that require a house of stone. The way you thought about God and the way you treat others is what He's going to be interested in most.
Besides the real bad human part is going to be when 10 men take control of all the Governments of the current Nations. A reference to horns can be symbolic of language, that would be 10 languages rather than 10 land areas if you're trying to pin the tail on the bad guys. Being wrong has a much higher probability than being right and that just makes for needless tension between people of different religions.
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 12/8/2008 6:42:38 PM
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bob97
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Stranger...
What was Gods view of those who worshiped false idols in the Old Testament? What is Gods view of sin...sin is sin and regardless of your views, being dead in sin will bring about eternal punishments. Only those forgiven by God will receive His eternal grace.
Do you think a Muslim who will condemn another to death unless they renounce Jesus Christ is less guilty in Gods eyes than anyone else who denies Him?
The degree of punishment is up for debate and is certainly something that we have no knowledge of or control over.
To deny that Islam is quite likely the religion behind the efforts of the man of sin (who will have no religion) is short sighted. It is very probable that the AC will appear from an Islam dominated Japhetic Nation (Russia) and will be a part of the collation (Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc). These nations are all enemies of Israel and it is their goal to destroy that nation.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Where does a Muslim State sit in End Times? - 12/8/2008 10:46:20 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom.
Doing good deeds is NOT the way for God to take notice of an individual. God doesn't care for our "filthy rags." Once we have sinned (and "all have sinned"), we are forever sinners. There is no way to undo the past!
It doesn't matter how good a Christian, a Muslim, a Shintoist, a Taoist, a Buddhist, or even a Jew has been; God does NOT throw our good deeds and our bad deeds into a balance to see if our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds. It just DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!
Only by God's justification of an individual IN SPITE OF OUR SINS AND OUR VERY SIN NATURE can we have any hope at all of being accepted by God. The key passage is II Cor. 5, particularly the summary in verse 21:
2 Cor 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV
If not for God's amazing ability to reconcile (Greek: katallassoo, "to change mutually" or "to exchange places") us with Himself through the sacrifice made by His only Son, we could not be redeemed. What kind of exchange are we talking about? Look at the verse above closely!
"He (God) has made Him (Yeshua`) to be sin on our behalf; who (Yeshua`) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (Yeshua`)." Just as Yeshua`, in spite of His righteousness (or rather, the righteousness of God in Him), He became our sin! That's why God poured out His wrath on His Son on the cross! When God looked at His Son during those three hours, He no longer saw His Son; He saw OUR SIN! (Not "sins" as the actions we have done, but "sin" as the very NATURE of our inability to do righteousness!) Thus, He poured out His wrath on OUR SIN, and Yeshua` took the full force of His wrath.
Now, God is free to look at us, in spite of our sin, as His OWN righteousness found in His Son!
When this is rightly taught, we can then understand how God can look at us, although we are sinners. He's not looking at us; God's looking at the righteousness of His Son! We become a TRIBUTE to the awesome sacrifice He made on behalf of humanity! We are no longer regarded as mere "sinners"; we have become "sinners-saved-by-grace!" We can never be innocent again, but thankfully we can be MORE than merely innocent! We can be FORGIVEN and JUSTIFIED by God Himself!
Teachers who claim to teach God's Word, therefore, need to be EXTREMELY careful when it comes to the word "repentance." We do not repent to become God's children! We repent BECAUSE we are God's children! It is the EVIDENCE of what God has already done for us when we are born again into His family. It is the RESULT; not the CAUSE! This may not seem that important to some people, but it is PROFOUND! It is God's Wisdom, and without it, we are hopelessly lost in the concept of "works for salvation," the idea that somehow we can please God with our good deeds. If one is trusting in how good he or she has been, or if one is trusting in the good deeds he or she has done, it is already over for that one! He or she is already condemned!
Yes, a Muslim could come to understand this, if God is gracious to him or her, but it will be much harder for that individual because Islam teaches that the Bible has been superceded by the Qoran; that Muhammed is a greater prophet than Yeshua` and that Yeshua` cannot be Allah's Son, because Allah has no Son; and Allah, although "merciful," calls true believers "infidels." It's not impossible for them to be justified by God; it's just very unlikely--very improbable--for God to justify them, given all the teachings of Islam and the tenacious way in which they adhere to their beliefs about Allah. It's a very unfortunate irony.
Retrobyter
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