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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 12:27:55 PM
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truthrevealed
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quote:
I am not saying that as individuals God does not call on us from time to time to meet the needs of a lost person/family. He does. But there is not command for the chruch to somehow try to meet the needs of the entire poor lost world.
So, if there is a command it's to meet the needs of the saints only?????
Cinderella, that's a great way to determine a genuine need 
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 12:36:01 PM
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P31W
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We are not commanded to meet every believer's need. Some we are told "not to meet".
Here is "one" example found in scripture. This is the list for those who are to get church benevolance.
11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 12:36:28 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 414
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Kat, I've seen the "rip-offs," it's sad. And because of that, people who have legitimate needs must endure the intense scrutiny, judgement, accusations and pass a 'litmus' test to recieve help from everyday christians(not referring to food pantries, govt assistance etc.)...when the reality of their situation is shameful enough!
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 12:37:37 PM
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truthrevealed
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p31, is there a command to meet the needs of the saints ONLY?
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 12:41:44 PM
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P31W
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No there is no command to meet their needs only.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 12:44:05 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
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quote:
Kat, I've seen the "rip-offs," it's sad.
But have "you" experienced the rip off for yourself?
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/20/2008 9:11:01 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3156
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quote:
Notice Acts 2 as well. They were busy about meeting "one anothers needs" within the fellowship and God added to their numbers.
An important point.
I have been approached several times by people asking for money. One guy wanted some money for gas and I gave it to him, but not to happily.
Another guy in Walmart asked me for gas money with the accompaning sob story. I gave him some but said, if you are lieing, its on you.
A lady came up to me in the grocery store asking for some change. Being literla minded I told her no since I had no change, only a couple dollars in cash. I felt bad about that, until I saw her in the checkout line with three bottles of beer.
Generous people...are targets. Churches are targets.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/20/2008 9:43:13 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
p31, is there a command to meet the needs of the saints ONLY?
The passage in Matt. 25 about meeting needs seems to be about the Saints only;
(Mat 25:44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(Mat 25:45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
with the reference to "My brethern"
There are other passages where the specific needs of Saints are to be met by Saints, but then there are a couple of passages that do not distinquise if the recipeints are to be just Saints or everyone who has needs.
I think the one area that we (The Church) miss it is; we overlook the needs of fellow Christians eveen in our own congegations and send the aid outside the Church to "Who knows where". I do bellieve we should look closer to home and meet the needs before looking somewhere else.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/20/2008 12:41:53 PM
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Hayseed
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There are a great many people that give of themselves because they are disciples. They tend not to be the ones that look out for "number 1". They also tend to not be the people that will quickly ask for help.
I'm tired of hearing stories about "benevolence funds" always going to the "usual suspects" while the people who go without or hit hard times because they sacrifice for the Kingdom, go unnoticed. They're usually the tithers and when they need resources it's not available for them. I see a lot of this in the churches going with the "seeker sensitive" and "mega" models. Usually I see them as a huge blackhole sucking up resources that would be better put to use elsewhere.
I know it's not as "sexy" a "ministry" to know and take care of your own first, but that is what Acts talks about among the believers.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/20/2008 3:54:46 PM
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truthrevealed
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quote:
But have "you" experienced the rip off for yourself?
For MANY years with my own family----to me PERSONALLY and with other family members..
Hasn't changed my views about giving, nor should it.......maybe to THOSE particular individuals.........
Should a few persons dishonesty develop an attitude where I'm cynical to help anyone? Cautious, indeed.......but unbelieving and cynical or outright refusing???
That's analgous(sp?) to a person swearing off relationships because of being "burned" many times in the past. Eventually, the one BEHIND the wall suffers......
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/20/2008 4:01:01 PM
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truthrevealed
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By the by, I've also experienced NEEDING help and facing such cynicism from believers.....VERY recently.
What a BLESSING it is to be in a POSITION to give......it's preferred to the other option.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/20/2008 8:46:33 PM
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SonInMe1
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A family knows each other. In the body of Christ we should know the needs of the people in the boidy and meet those needs...whatever they might be...and be ready to do so.
A church that does not meet the needs of its members is not a christian church.
There is no such thing as limited funds in this respect. I know of people who go without and are in a christian body of believers. I consider this reprehensible. All the bells and whistles of the modern church mean nothing if we can't even take care of our own.
Having said that, there is no doubt some come to church to defraud it. However these people soon define themselves and they will be found out.
Is it christian to be taken advantage of? Stewardship seems to suggest..no. However, I think a loving caring christian can find themselves being taken advantage of. This...is why we are a target. This..is why people, some, come to the church.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/21/2008 8:34:58 AM
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KatMack
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This is why our church as a "Special Benevolence" fund. We have a regular fund set up to help those outside the church but our special fund is for helping church members only. The budget for it is about triple the regular benevolence fund.
We've also started requiring referrals from church members for non-church members seeking assistance from us. That way we know someone is involved in their lives, helping them with more than just their physical needs. It's also eliminated much of the need for social work- finding out if they are truly in need, etc. It allows the benevolence team to just meet with the people, talk about their needs, give them assistance with budgeting if needed, help them and most importantly pray with them and love on them.
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
"God will do what God will do. What I'm responsible for is to believe he's all he says he is and obey what he tells me to do. " -magdaleine
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/21/2008 8:57:09 AM
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lexie
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This is something my husband and I have been discussing a lot lately. There are a few people who walk up and down our nearest intersection asking for change. In the past, my husband and I have given a dollar or two out of the mind "we'll give and then they can sort out with God what they did with the money." However, recently there has been a girl there with them, and you can tell from her face that she is either currently on or has recently been on meth. I don't want to give her change to put towards meth, however if she is clean I wouldn't mind giving a dollar or two. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to find out (not sure how to ask that question from my car.)
quote:
A family knows each other. In the body of Christ we should know the needs of the people in the boidy and meet those needs...whatever they might be...and be ready to do so.
This is something I struggle with. Our offering in church has always been to meet the needs of the saints because we have been somewhere we don't need to pay rent. However, we are looking for bigger space which means that we will need to save our money. There is one family who in times past has on many occasions "borrowed" from the collection plate when they've been in a jam. In the beginning, no one had a problem with it, but then all of a sudden we're hearing how they need money for groceries to feed the children, and yet on the same day the wife is showing off some brand new outfit and shoes she has bought (which is a very regular occurrence.) At what point do we say enough? Or do we continue to let them make financial mistakes and rely on the church to bail them out (they have not paid back all of the money they say they are just borrowing.) In the past I've pointed out that there are times when there is little money in the plate. There are families in the church that if one adult lost their job or were to become sick, would not be able to make it. If that happened, we wouldn't have money to give them.
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/21/2008 9:11:13 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
In the area I live in, I know the "needy" rather well. After seven years of working as a probation officer in the area, I got to know my clients and their associates rather well. One of the things I see most of the "needy" lacking is life skills. The needs are different. Many have chemical addictions, but not all. Some have mental health issues. Some have mental health and chemical dependency issues combined.
Our church is located in a very rural area nestled between several small communities. The largest city is approximately 30,000 people and is 30 miles away. Our church sometimes gets targeted by the professional cons after they have used and abused the churches in the neighboring towns. We have offered assistance to a few of these folks. We have put together a team of people to work with and disciple a person expressing a desire to change. UNfortunately, the success rate is not high. Too often the recipients find the "service" too intrusive. They want the material help, they don't want someone in their life pointing out the sin and having an expectation that the sin cease. They like government style assistance in which they get something without anyone intruding on their personal space and having expectations.
This reflects my own personal experience as well. When I get personally asked for help, I will never directly give money. Depending on the circumstances I will either try to offer work or food. Amazingly, I get turned down for both almost every time. When I used to work downtown, I would have people approach me begging for money nearly everyday. Each and every time I would offer to pay them if they would come wash the windows of my store. In the three years that I worked there, I only had one man take me up on the offer.
My personal feeling is that our welfare system has largely destroyed the option to give genuine help to the needy. Because their genuine needs are already taken care of without requiring any kind of response on their part, they have no motivation to seek the changes they so despairingly need to make.
quote:
The other factor in this is that too many in the church don't want to get involved. They say they want to see people come to Christ and change, but they do not want to have to be the instrument God chooses to use.
It seems to me that this is a problem we are never going to solve. Whenever we, the church, see the need, we create a program to addres it and get a few volunteers to make the program work. Relationships are not built because we're too busy minding the program. It seems that the bottom line of the matter is that we all long to be in relationship. Because relationship is where we build life skills.
Agreed, this is a huge problem.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/21/2008 9:12:47 PM
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buckifn
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3 years ago our church leader's were told about a family "in need" so we decided to adopt this family during Christmas....we gathered about $250.00 in food items, including a turkey, and took it to the house, along with about 25 toys donated by members to the children (2 kids). When we got to the house, there were 4 of us plus our wives to present the donation, we could not fit into the room where the two kids were because there were so many toys scattered all over the room.
From that point on our giving to "those in need" has changed. We give, but in different ways. 1 big area of service is serving at the local soup kitchen...not only do we prepare and serve the hot meals, but we donate food for the meals x amt. of times per month. We do not provide toys for children, but we will take the child to purchase a new coat, new shoes, or something that is truly a NEED.
So yes, there are those who take advantage, but there are also ways to separate the need from the greed and I think we do have a responsibility to find the difference and do accordingly.
Something else new we started is family mentors...we get a family for referral and at least 2 people, along with 1 of the elder's is appointed to be a mentor to that family and report back to us the need and the progess that is made. Thus far it has been highly effective and far more productive than a 1 time "material fix"
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/22/2008 10:44:25 PM
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lightshineon
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I usually give when ask, did Jesus not command us to? I also feel led to give at times. It is so joyful to give. I would not want to miss Gods will, by trying to sort it out.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/25/2008 2:48:56 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
Is [Giving to people who......DESERVE it] a philosophy that you live by? Knowing how difficult it is in these times to make ends meet, are you strict about who or what cause you give to? How does one define who's "deserving" of help? Should the person who defines be the one giving from their pocket? If a christian, should it be God? Is giving to those who "deserve" it a christian principle?
I am careful about whom I give to and about what I give -- very careful -- whether it is an organization or an individual. When it comes to individuals who have needs, for example, I extremely rarely give money, but I will pay a bill, buy gas, buy food, etc. for them. Regarding donations to organizations, I first make sure that the organization uses the money properly. Just this week, a newspaper I receive took a page to give such statistics, and I pay attention. The Bible says to give, but it also decries using what He gives us in a foolish way. We are to be good managers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
How do you discern who has a genuine NEED and who is being GREEDY? Is that distinction made by following the leading of the Spirit or simply by looking at a person and making a judgement about their situation/circumstance?
I have to use what I already know. If I know someone is a user and that they will not work, then that is how I judge my giving. If I don't know, I give as I can afford to give. I have offered work for money and been turned down. I have offered to teach things to people in order to improve their skills and make them more employable, and they never came.
quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
And if you do feel this way, does it apply only to money or must one be "deserving" of your affections and forgiveness as well?
As far as affections and forgiveness, the biblical commands regarding forgiveness are very clear. About affections, we are to love people enough to have their best interest at heart. However, it is not compassionate to give to users, enabling them to continue to abuse themselves and others by being users.
I have had times when I have given way too far beyond what I had. That is not what G-d wants for us, in spite of the preachers who tell people to do this: they are wrong. I am trying to remember a Scripture that says to give beyond our means, but I can't think of one. If anyone knows one, please let me know.
But anyway -- I have been absolutely Worn Out by some who have needed, asked, etc., to the point at which I had to embarass both of us by walking away. This is not just uncomfortable for the asker; it is very painful to have not be sufficient enough as the giver.
A recent giving experience that was a little negative was when I took some things to a lady. The parkinglot of her apartment complex did not allow for me to park, or I would be towed, so I called and asked her to come down to my car to receive the items. Her response was, "We have an elevator."
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/28/2008 1:23:57 PM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kd4hvz
Sometimes it is obvious. Sometimes it is not so obvious. I have learned from past experience .
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opinion, part of being a wise steward of what God has made me responsible for.
When it comes to forgiveness, I believe that those who repent should be forgiven. (Luke 17)
As far as affection I am more apt to associate that with the general idea of love and offer it freely and unlimited.
That's me. 
I agreed with you on everyting except on the issue of forgiveness. I think we need to offer forgiveness and for give regardless of whether people repent (apologyze) to us or not.
quote:
Matthew 6:12
And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses
etc...
The bible didn't say anything about them being repentant.
_____________________________
Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Your cross I cling.
1) True Salvation
2) Justification: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13056
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/28/2008 1:35:33 PM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
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On giving,
I believe in giving to any who has need, as long as I am able to. Meaning minus my necessary bills, food, transportation, etc... Whatever I have left, I should be willing to give to people.
But I will not give to a person that is clearly (and I repeat, clearly) wasteful, lazy or advantage taker. I'd rather counsel them.
For instance this is what the spirit dropped on my heart concerning the Homeless that could be Drug-addicts. I should always have some lunch buckets (like Chef-Boyardee) in my car and just hand it to them with some soda. So, I will not be feeding their destructive addictions.
_____________________________
Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Your cross I cling.
1) True Salvation
2) Justification: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13056
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/28/2008 1:41:58 PM
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kingdele
Posts: 63
Joined: 9/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
3 years ago our church leader's were told about a family "in need" so we decided to adopt this family during Christmas....we gathered about $250.00 in food items, including a turkey, and took it to the house, along with about 25 toys donated by members to the children (2 kids). When we got to the house, there were 4 of us plus our wives to present the donation, we could not fit into the room where the two kids were because there were so many toys scattered all over the room.
From that point on our giving to "those in need" has changed. We give, but in different ways. 1 big area of service is serving at the local soup kitchen...not only do we prepare and serve the hot meals, but we donate food for the meals x amt. of times per month. We do not provide toys for children, but we will take the child to purchase a new coat, new shoes, or something that is truly a NEED.
So yes, there are those who take advantage, but there are also ways to separate the need from the greed and I think we do have a responsibility to find the difference and do accordingly.
Something else new we started is family mentors...we get a family for referral and at least 2 people, along with 1 of the elder's is appointed to be a mentor to that family and report back to us the need and the progess that is made. Thus far it has been highly effective and far more productive than a 1 time "material fix"
I think you make a good point. Because the resources that should be going to the truly needy may end up being sucked up by the greedy, lazy and unwise. I think that is what Apostle Paul is talking about in the letters that dealt with such issues
_____________________________
Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Your cross I cling.
1) True Salvation
2) Justification: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13056
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I just barely resisted the urge to run out there and demand one of the bags back. Seriously, if you have that great a need, explain it to me, talk to me. I may not be able to help, but I might! Don't be dishonest and take charity under false pretenses!!! I wish I could say that that was a rare occurance, but dishonesty seems to be rampant amongst those that are seeking assistance from churches they are not a part of. 
