RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approach to preaching
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 11/28/2008 10:23:27 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
It sure sounds like you are "picking a fight" over this issue.
No, I am trying to defend an effective evangelist from a baseless accusation.
If you believe that every Christian can have a word of knowledge, that's fine, but I still do not see any Scriptural support for the idea.
quote:
To answer your question about are some gifts better than others, see 1 Cor. 12:31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
This is, in my opinion, one of the most grossly mistranslated passages in Scripture. Most translators treat the verb here as an imperative, but it seems to make much more sense to treat it as indicative (which, just to confuse matters, takes the same basic form here in the Greek, I believe) - it would then read, "But you all eagerly desire the greater gifts." Paul spends all of chapter 12 addressing the concept of all the spiritual gifts being equal. Different, yes, but equal. It seems that those in the Corinthian church were treating some gifts as "super gifts," signs of higher spirituality. Probably things like speaking in tongues, having special knowledge and giving away things (hence the opening verses of chapter 13). They had an inappropriate view of gifts, and I believe that when Paul says "greater gifts", he is speaking sarcastically to show them the folly of their point of view.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/1/2008 8:09:15 PM
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sledmt
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Well Mr Fribbles you believe that he is a effective presenter of the Gospel. I would agree that proclaim that the Gospel in word, but I don't that is proclaiming the FULL Gospel.
I have respect for Ray Comfort out there pounding the pavement, but I believe that he could walk in a greater fullness of the Spirit.
I pick word of knowledge as an example of one thing Christ modeled for us. Christ moved in a bunch of different gifts of the Spirit. He modeled this for us.
When I don't see some of the gifts of the Spirit in a preacher's life, I use caution when listening to him. Although Ray seem like a passionate man, I really have not seen any of the gifts following in the TV programs I have seen.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/1/2008 8:18:16 PM
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NESS55
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you know its hard to evaluate weather or not a method for evangelism is good or not like whats the standard the more pple "get saved" well that's not right
Rays method for me is too harsh there is no relationship he just expects you to pound the pavement like you said and go out there and do it
however i do like the law as a school master i totally agree and think that people need to be confronted with there sin
but sledmt what do you mean when you said quote:
Full Gospel
NESS<><
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Zeph 3:17
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/1/2008 8:22:04 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I would agree that proclaim that the Gospel in word, but I don't that is proclaiming the FULL Gospel.
How would you define the "FULL Gospel"?
quote:
I believe that he could walk in a greater fullness of the Spirit.
You've already said that not every believer receives every Spiritual gift (or did I misunderstand you?). Why, then, do you still take issue with the fact that he doesn't use certain gifts?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/1/2008 8:31:09 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I would agree that proclaim that the Gospel in word, but I don't that is proclaiming the FULL Gospel.
How would you define the "FULL Gospel"?
quote:
I believe that he could walk in a greater fullness of the Spirit.
You've already said that not every believer receives every Spiritual gift (or did I misunderstand you?). Why, then, do you still take issue with the fact that he doesn't use certain gifts?
Full Gospel=== How did Christ proclaim that message of the Kingdom? Not the message of bringing sinners back into a relationship with God, but how did Christ bring that message to believers.
Has Ray ever taught this or modeled this: word of knowledge, healing sick, raising dead, commanding demons to leave, etc. the things Christ did to proclaim the message of the Kingdom. Gospel
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/1/2008 8:43:20 PM
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NESS55
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so let me get this straight you want Ray to cast out demons heal sick and so forth basically you taking WWJD a bit too seriously
look I'm not sure what your belief are and i understand that i need to respect them but here is something for you did it ever occur to you that there were some things that Jesus did that we can not do? mainly due to his divine nature and that God gave allowed miracles to happen because God chose moses to bring his people out of slavory and Jesus did miracles and so there is kinda a parrallel there miralcles are done by God inorder that He might reign supreme
im not sure what a miracle would do for Ray but i dont think that God needs to performe a miracle through Ray just so Rays ministry could be ... solidified, affermed, or what have you
also could you define for me what word of knowledge is and yah basicaly i need a bunch of definitions like what do you mean when you say miracle?
NESS<><
_____________________________
Zeph 3:17
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/1/2008 8:45:48 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
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quote:
Has Ray ever taught this or modeled this: word of knowledge, healing sick, raising dead, commanding demons to leave, etc. the things Christ did to proclaim the message of the Kingdom. Gospel
Have you done all these things?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/2/2008 11:49:58 AM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1144
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Has Ray ever taught this or modeled this: word of knowledge, healing sick, raising dead, commanding demons to leave, etc. the things Christ did to proclaim the message of the Kingdom. Gospel
I don't follow him around 24 hours a day, but maybe he has at some point in his life. His focus is on evangelism, which last time i looked was presenting the salvation message, not turning people instantly into full-blown Christians. Most people don't start raising the dead the minute after they get saved. I'm sure it may have happened at least once in the history of Christianity but it's not a common ocurrence. Those gifts are discovered after a period of discipleship, which more often than not is not the duty of the person witnessing. They are to present the need for repentance and acceptance of Christ.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/2/2008 1:19:31 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
For that matter, where does it tell us it ok to hand out tracts?
ah! i have an answer. the early Reformers printed and passed out tracts. i was watching the movie Reformation Overview and one of the early Reformers (Tyndale or one of those guys), got in trouble with the RCC hierarchy because they found some of his tracts and he got arrested for it. They used the word "tracts" in the movie.
so maybe some Bible scholars can clarify for me that this is true. A lot of us would do well following the early church saints and follow their example.
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Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/2/2008 5:11:53 PM
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sledmt
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This is one way of looking at it; If Ray Comfort believed in "Word of knowledge", would he not talk about this in his shows as one way that a believer can more effectively present the Gospel.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/2/2008 10:11:05 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
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quote:
If Ray Comfort believed in "Word of knowledge", would he not talk about this in his shows as one way that a believer can more effectively present the Gospel.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what his objective is in his show. If it is to present every possible way believers can share the gospel, then yeah, he would. But if it is more specific than that, then it's very possible that he would not.
I notice you ignored my question.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/3/2008 4:26:53 PM
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sledmt
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MrFibbles,
I have seen a few in my own life. Awesome.
I'm continueing to seek for more of His Spirit and his wonderful gifts.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/3/2008 6:55:47 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Word of knowledge, thats what will make witnessing more effective, no, wait, miracles will make witnessing more effective, no wait, tongues and prophecy will make witnessing more effective.
In the end, when God gifts one person to do something for Him, naysayers come out and claim the bar is higher than that and they have not attained to true spiritual witnessing.
Im just saying its all so much carnality and rubbish. Ray and Kirk are gifted and empowered to operate for Jesus Christ on the level He has given them, if they make good use of what God has given them, who are we to criticize their actions? Have you used your giftings to witness the gospel with the kind of fruit they have? Have you spent the time in prayer and the time pounding the pavement to speak to every kind of person for the sake of Jesus Christ?
Ive been a first hand observer of the unsaved who were given 'a word of knowledge', they were astounded at what occured, they were wondering what is going on, yet salvation is not predicated upon their belief in 'words of knowledge' their salvation is a gift from God, ministered to them by the power of the Holy Spirit to speak about what Jesus Christ has done on that cross and what lengths God has gone to purchase to Himself a people of faith. When that prophecy or healing or word is done, what next? Do they believe on Christ because of miracles? Read this,
John 2:21-23 "Jesus did not commit himself to them" He didnt need the testimony of men to validate who He is, God opens the mind and heart to 'believe' who He is and gifts them with faith to obtain what God has done for them. Miracles and Words of knowledge do NOT replace the message of law and gospel so that they will understand who is revealing Himself to them and why they are called upon to believe that message.
Such outpourings of Gods grace to 'manifest' a word of knowledge or even a healing demonstrate the wonderful kind of love that is contained in Jesus Himself. But it might as well be on the other side of the universe if the gospel message is left incomplete and they have no 'gospel' to believe and no 'reason' to believe it.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/3/2008 7:09:26 PM
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NESS55
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so word of knowledge is basically any spiritual gift that will prove you were sent from God? am i right
well this is not the thread to talk about such matters and i totaly dissagree with you on that note!
i have used Ray's method and i can not say that one should rate success on how many people were converted for many reasons 1 its not you its God so i think we agree on that but 2 saying a prayer does nothing if your life does not match up
i think the law should be used when evangelising and i think that we can not give a touchey feeling good message just so our church attendace can go up! and that is basicaly the jist of Ray's method confront the person with there sins (good) and offer them Christ as the perfect Savior (good)
NESS<><
_____________________________
Zeph 3:17
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/3/2008 9:01:01 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
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quote:
I have seen a few in my own life. Awesome.
So you've seen people raised from the dead?
quote:
I'm continueing to seek for more of His Spirit and his wonderful gifts.
So if you're not doing them, why should Ray?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 1:29:12 PM
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sledmt
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Raising from dead.
Not yet, but soon
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 1:32:43 PM
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sledmt
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I believe it is alot like Paul state, I'm not preaching the gospel with wise words or debating, but with fear and trembling and a demastration of the power God I preach the Gospel. If that the way Paul preached the word, sounds good to me.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 1:46:32 PM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I believe it is alot like Paul state, I'm not preaching the gospel with wise words or debating, but with fear and trembling and a demastration of the power God I preach the Gospel. If that the way Paul preached the word, sounds good to me.
Paul used wise words and debating in Acts 17 when he was talking with the men of Athens.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 1:47:59 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Raising from dead.
Not yet, but soon
What do you mean by that?
quote:
I'm not preaching the gospel with wise words or debating, but with fear and trembling and a demastration of the power God I preach the Gospel. If that the way Paul preached the word, sounds good to me.
You're changing your story. You accuse Ray of not being as good as he could be because he doesn't do everything Christ did on earth. If you do not do everything Christ did on earth yourself, then you are complaining about the speck in Ray's eye while ignoring the plank in your own.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 1:49:41 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1144
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Raising from dead.
Not yet, but soon
What do you mean by that?
Yeah, is it like earning a merit badge?
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 3:05:19 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I believe it is alot like Paul state, I'm not preaching the gospel with wise words or debating, but with fear and trembling and a demastration of the power God I preach the Gospel. If that the way Paul preached the word, sounds good to me.
Paul used wise words and debating in Acts 17 when he was talking with the men of Athens.
1 Cor 2:1-5 shows us how Paul preached the Gospel.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 3:08:06 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Raising from dead.
Not yet, but soon
What do you mean by that?
The Lord has called all us to signs and wonders, and one of those is raising the dead.
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 4:10:12 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1144
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I believe it is alot like Paul state, I'm not preaching the gospel with wise words or debating, but with fear and trembling and a demastration of the power God I preach the Gospel. If that the way Paul preached the word, sounds good to me.
Paul used wise words and debating in Acts 17 when he was talking with the men of Athens.
1 Cor 2:1-5 shows us how Paul preached the Gospel.
Verse 2:
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
That sounds like the nuts and bolts Gospel message to me. No "words of knowledge".
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 4:26:50 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
The Lord has called all us to signs and wonders, and one of those is raising the dead.
I got that much, I was more curious about the "Not yet" statement.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The things I don't like about Ray Comfort's approac... - 12/4/2008 4:55:10 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I believe it is alot like Paul state, I'm not preaching the gospel with wise words or debating, but with fear and trembling and a demastration of the power God I preach the Gospel. If that the way Paul preached the word, sounds good to me.
Paul used wise words and debating in Acts 17 when he was talking with the men of Athens.
1 Cor 2:1-5 shows us how Paul preached the Gospel.
Verse 2:
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
That sounds like the nuts and bolts Gospel message to me. No "words of knowledge".
Read the whole passage.
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