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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/26/2008 5:08:05 PM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/26/2008 11:31:12 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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quote:
Let's deal with your last statement first. Discerning students of Scripture are expected to get "locked into one view" instead of trying to be all things to all men. The "big picture" is only discernable when we are locked into rightly dividing the Word of Truth, and this includes a pre-tribulational, pre-millenial Rapture (and the "majority" does not rule in matters of spiritual discernment).
My point Ezra had to do with forcing a single view of prophecy without exploring other alternate views; an example of this would be to say the Beast or Antichrist would have to come from a revised Roman Empire as opposed to simply being of the Japhetic ancestry. This would allow the man of sin to come say from Russia. The bible says he will come from the sea which simply places him as a gentile.
quote:
The Tribulation is a time of judgment, and the Great Tribulation is a time of intensified judgment. Christians are not subject to God's judgments, since Christ was judged in our stead. Worldwide control by Satan is indeed a judgment, which is not possible as long as the Church and the Holy Spirit are present on earth. This is a fundamental fact which the mid-tribulationists conveniently forget.
Here we will just have to disagree…there is nothing biblical that demands a pre-tribulation rapture. In fact there is more pointing to a pre-wrath rapture or a rapture at the seventh trumpet then anything else.
quote:
Secondly, the book of Revelation shows us that there will indeed be worldwide chaos before the Second Coming of Christ. This is supported by numerous OT prophecies.
Where in the bible does it say that the actions of the man of sin will be world wide? The wrath of God will be world wide but not necessarily the tribulation created by the Beast. God’s wrath begins at the sixth seal which will begin pretty late in the week and my position would have the rapture occur before this happens.
quote:
Thirdly, Scripture is quite clear that there will be a Man of Sin who will claim to be God and Christ, but will probably also claim to be the Mahdi of the Muslims. This individual will be energized and possessed by Satan, therefore he will not be an ordinary human being. He will use dazzling miracles to convince the unbelieving world that he is indeed "the Christ". And they will believe him and take his mark!
We are in total agreement here
quote:
Scripture is also quite clear that the nation of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount will all feature prominently in the schemes of the Antichrist. And that the Lord Jesus Christ will destroy this man, and that the Unholy Trinity (Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet) will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
This is my point exactly when I say the actions of the Beast will be more towards the Mid East rather then the world. There will more then likely be chaos and havoc in the whole world but not to the degree that will exist in the Holy Land. After all, Revelation is about Israel and God dealing with their redemption.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/27/2008 2:30:55 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Where in the bible does it say that the actions of the man of sin will be world wide?
Bob:
Note carefully the bolded words below and understand the worldwide control of the Antichrist and Satan for a brief period of time -- 42 months or 3 1/2 years.
Revelation 13 - Study This Chapter
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/27/2008 3:33:38 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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Hi Ezra...
I never meant to imply that world wide control for the secular world would not exist. This is what the world in demanding today...a one world government that will insure peace and equality among all. The ability to live you life the way you want without hindrance from those saying that you are morally wrong. Who wants a religion that limits how you live your life.
As long as the secular world agrees with the beast they will live their lives with minimal problems...disagree and the power of the beast will come down on you.
That said, I still think the main thrust of the beast's program will be to seize the holy city and prove himself to be ruler and god to the holy people. When they reject him as the Maccabees did under Antiochus’s rule then the real persecution will begin in the effort to destroy all resistances. The last part of Daniel's 11 describes the actions of the beast in my opinion and that is pretty well how he operates.
And yes the biggest part of the world control will be a monetary control of some sort…I think it will be Mid East Oil…how can the world operate in the dark and cold?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/28/2008 8:18:50 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
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Hi all,
I just read a clip from a book that makes very interesting reading. I can't find the book, but the exert was posted on a forum where they had put the clip up. It shows how many view Christianity to be counter productive to the worlds 'new direction'. They claim it is 'organized religion' they refer too, but only focus on Christianity. Much of what the clip says actually has a truth to it. In the sense that the things that have been done in the name of Christ are indeed the result of man doing horrible things in the name of Christ. But it does show how Satan that caused men to do these things in the name of Christianity, could actually turn it around and use it to crush the Christian message and turn the hearts of the masses to anti-Christ, as they tire of what they see 'organized religion' doing to their world. Interesting, clever and very disturbing;
-------------------- Below is the exert
"There is something that has been the cause for millions of people killed in pointless wars, a tool used for evil, a tool used by governments and people to scare others into doing their bidding. The tool? Organized religion.
With it, you can train people to do whatever you want them to, using fear, trickery, and much more.
The Christian religion is a huge variation of this. From the inquisition, to burning people who they view may be witches, or using it to train preachers to mindlessly, or perhaps purposefully trick people into voting for such persons as George W. Bush, or Abortion, and in some cases "You'll go to hell if you don't".
The Anti-Christ would bring "A death to Christ", or the highly harmful organized powerful Christian religion.
Perhaps the Anti-Christ is not some seven-headed monster that will destroy the world one day, but a figure of good, who would save the world from organized religion, bringing a death to the wars, hate and segregation caused by it.
Maybe, if the Anti-Christ is real, it won't be something to fear, but something to support?
The Mayan calender ends, Nostradamus stopped predicting to around 2030.
Perhaps around that time won't be the end of the world, but the start of an less racist and hateful one".
< Message edited by SonicStudent -- 11/28/2008 8:51:01 PM >
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/28/2008 8:45:03 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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quote:
Perhaps the Anti-Christ is not some seven-headed monster that will destroy the world one day, but a figure of good, who would save the world from organized religion, bringing a death to the wars, hate and segregation caused by it.
Mark is this you talking or the book?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/28/2008 8:47:45 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
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No, that's the book. I stop at; clever and very disturbing!
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/28/2008 9:07:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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The world secular progressive religion that could lead up to the coming forth of the beast in all likelihood will not appear to be evil. How could something that wants to save mankind from its twisted desires be evil? It’s an effort to rid the world of prejudice and save mankind from the greed of capitalism whereby all can share in the wealth of the world. To eliminate the rape of the global energy system, encouraging man to live within the ability of nature to maintain balance. To have respect for all different kinds of people and life styles. All men are looking for spiritual fulfillment and there are any numbers of ways to achieve this enlightenment. We do not need a religion that limits our ability to seek god on our own way, saying that we are doomed to hell if we don’t do it their way.
Then when we are all sedate as well fed turkeys a powerful man will come forward and take advantage of our innocence and trusting nature.
Sounds good to me man! 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/28/2008 9:40:27 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
Joined: 10/20/2008
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I think you summed it up clearly there Bob. What happened to your limited litererrrery thingy? LOL.
I just read an article from a Geoff Henstock, that called the Christians that believe in a end time Antichrist figure as apostate. He said that our view of this figure is stolen or at least parallel to the Muslim Dajjal. And that it will be us that actually reject the true Christ when He comes, because we will be so indoctrinated to be looking for the antichrist. Eeeeeek
It's here;
http://www.testimony-magazine.org/back/sep2006/henstock.pdf
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/30/2008 9:54:16 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
The reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Knox, Wesley etc etc all believed that the Pope is the Antichrist.
http://www.geocities.com/biblerevelations_org/antichrist/dilemma_of_the_antichrist.htm
Chester:
With all due respect to the Reformers, they were mistaken. The Reformers were more focused on the Gospel and Bible truth, and had also accepted the Augustinian idea that the Church had replaced Israel. In any event, eschatology was not something that necessarily exercised the Reformers.
A careful study of Scripture reveals that the Man of Sin will sit in the Temple at Jerusalem literally claiming that he is God and Christ. And he will also be supernaturally energized by Satan to deceive the world into thinking that he must be God because of his amazing miracles. The popes do not qualify on these counts, since there was never a miracle-working pope. But the Beast is a miracle worker par excellence. This will be his modus operandi to "prove" that he is indeed Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 12/2/2008 3:32:21 PM
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ChesterDash
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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ez, with all due respect, if you don't believe that the church replaced Israel, why don't you become a Jew?
The reformers were indeed correct, the Antichrist has set himself up in the temple of God (meaning the church). The Pope is known as the vicar of Christ (or literally Jesus Christ on the earth) how blasphemous is that?
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 12/2/2008 7:55:40 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
ez, with all due respect, if you don't believe that the church replaced Israel, why don't you become a Jew?
It's not necessary to "become a Jew". It is necessary to be born again. However, God has a distinct plan for the Church and a distinct plan for redeemed and restored Israel.
quote:
The reformers were indeed correct, the Antichrist has set himself up in the temple of God (meaning the church). The Pope is known as the vicar of Christ (or literally Jesus Christ on the earth) how blasphemous is that?
The Reformers were mistaken in that the blasphemy of pretending to be "the vicar of Christ" is nowhere near the blasphemy of claiming to be God.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 12/3/2008 3:51:39 PM
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ChesterDash
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesterDash
ez, with all due respect, if you don't believe that the church replaced Israel, why don't you become a Jew?
It's not necessary to "become a Jew". It is necessary to be born again. However, God has a distinct plan for the Church and a distinct plan for redeemed and restored Israel.
quote:
The reformers were indeed correct, the Antichrist has set himself up in the temple of God (meaning the church). The Pope is known as the vicar of Christ (or literally Jesus Christ on the earth) how blasphemous is that?
The Reformers were mistaken in that the blasphemy of pretending to be "the vicar of Christ" is nowhere near the blasphemy of claiming to be God.
it is the same thing,ez
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