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Is the Antichrist real? - 11/16/2008 10:25:45 AM
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bob97
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It's been said that there is no such person as the finial Antichrist which will appear in the latter days. It's been said that the word beast is symbolic for a world government or world religion.
Because this confuses people in their attempt to understand prophecy and what events will occur in the latter days it seems appropriate to discuss the reality of a real Antichrist. Will he actually exist or is this all only a misunderstanding of translation and teaching?
It seems to me that there is much scripture that talks about this person and his impact on the world and I will list a few of them.
Daniel 8:23 - 27 (KJV) 23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
Daniel 11:21 - 45 (KJV) 21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. 22And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. 23And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. 24He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers’ fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time. 25And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him. 26Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain. 27And both these kings’ hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed. 28Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. 29At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. 40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Revelation 13:1 - 18 (KJV) 1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 14:9 - 10 (KJV) 9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/16/2008 12:08:58 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3462
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Well there are many anti christ gone into the world. Correct me if I am wrong, but, is the beast only mentioned in Revelation.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/16/2008 12:20:22 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
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I have to say Bob, no matter what the various view points may indicate, and no matter what identity one may give to the prince in Dan 9, I fully see a man of sin throughout scripture decieving the world and coming against Jesus, God's people both Jew and redeemed and Israel.
New testament epistles, old testament and even Jesus himself I believe indicate this false Sheppard or Anti-Messiah.
I do not see a fulfilment in history of when Christ said 'I come in My Father's name and you receive me not. Another shall come in His own name, him you shall receive.
Neither have I seen fulfilment of the new testament writters man of sin, anti-Christ etc.
Revelation, I believe makes it clear too.
Many say, because of John that the new testament refers to 'a spirit of anti-Christ only', because John says many ant-Christ's have gone out into the world, and that anti-Christ is anyone who denies who Jesus is etc. I think this is error. The spirit of anti-Christ works in all who deny, and because we accept either truth or lie, we side with either God or the father of lies by rejection or accepting the truth, and Satan, through spirit of anti-Christ works in the world of men for a purpose. To bring ultimate deception at the last days, where he seeks to obtain the worship of man. But just because there is a spirit of that anti-Christ in all who reject God and Christ, doesn't mean there will not be a final incarnation of Anti-Christ, it almost requires it to be so.
I believe the bible is clear, that this final deception will see both Jew and Gentile seek their hearts desire, which for the Gentile is to reject God, and build their own 'tower that reaches into heaven who's builer is not God'. For the Jew, they desire 'the' Messiah, that will rescue them from their situations and enemies, but a messiah that allows them to stay in their sin.
Both these desires are Anti-Christ, and I believe Satan has been busy to create this condition and see it to fulfillment, receiving worship from both as Anti-Christ gives both desires, which is 'peace and securuity, seperate from Jesus and His father. Peace on earth without peace with God. Peace through compromise of God's truth and not true heavenly salvation.
Anti-Christ will tickle their ears with their hearts desire, flattery rather than the truth that brings not salvation of the body, but salvation of the heart and soul.
I have 'NO' personal doubt over this at all. I think the big picture throughout scriptures through literal prophecy and scripture, also type, shadow, anti-type and even understanding the war between man, Satan and God requires and points clearly to it!
If we didn't receive Him, we must receive him instead! The world has seen many dictators with the same desire, to obtain the ultimate prize, world power over men and to sit where only God should sit. This dictator will be different to those that 'almost' accomplished that goal. He will use not might (at first), but has the Serpents deceitful tongue, understands manipulation and flattery. Knows how to twist scripture, that turns lies into what appears to be truth and righteousness.
Yep, no question, there will be a man that will be the closest incarnation we will ever see to Satan in the flesh. I believe, other than the literal scriptures that appear in the bible regarding the man of sin and his many other names. The bible indicates this plainly in so many other shadows and types.
< Message edited by SonicStudent -- 11/16/2008 12:28:33 PM >
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/16/2008 1:49:42 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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So lightshineon…you don’t believe that there will be a finial personification of Satan who will try to take control of this physical world and turn the hearts of man away from God?
If you believe that to be the case would you then say that we do not have war between good and evil in the spiritual realm… between angels of darkness and those of light.
It seems if we reject these things that we would have to accept the fact that it was not Satan who led Eve astray in the Garden and her faults were of her own choosing.
Does not the bible tell us that war on earth will exist between Satan and those who belong to him…that Christ will defeat him and he will be dispelled from this realm?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/16/2008 11:39:03 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3462
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Yes, I do. I just believe the anti-christ and Beast are different. Yes most assuredly there will and is now a heavenly war.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
So lightshineon…you don’t believe that there will be a finial personification of Satan who will try to take control of this physical world and turn the hearts of man away from God?
If you believe that to be the case would you then say that we do not have war between good and evil in the spiritual realm… between angels of darkness and those of light.
It seems if we reject these things that we would have to accept the fact that it was not Satan who led Eve astray in the Garden and her faults were of her own choosing.
Does not the bible tell us that war on earth will exist between Satan and those who belong to him…that Christ will defeat him and he will be dispelled from this realm?
Bob
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/17/2008 2:01:53 AM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
I have to say Bob, no matter what the various view points may indicate, and no matter what identity one may give to the prince in Dan 9, I fully see a man of sin throughout scripture decieving the world and coming against Jesus, God's people both Jew and redeemed and Israel.
New testament epistles, old testament and even Jesus himself I believe indicate this false Sheppard or Anti-Messiah.
I do not see a fulfilment in history of when Christ said 'I come in My Father's name and you receive me not. Another shall come in His own name, him you shall receive.
Neither have I seen fulfilment of the new testament writters man of sin, anti-Christ etc.
Revelation, I believe makes it clear too.
Many say, because of John that the new testament refers to 'a spirit of anti-Christ only', because John says many ant-Christ's have gone out into the world, and that anti-Christ is anyone who denies who Jesus is etc. I think this is error. The spirit of anti-Christ works in all who deny, and because we accept either truth or lie, we side with either God or the father of lies by rejection or accepting the truth, and Satan, through spirit of anti-Christ works in the world of men for a purpose. To bring ultimate deception at the last days, where he seeks to obtain the worship of man. But just because there is a spirit of that anti-Christ in all who reject God and Christ, doesn't mean there will not be a final incarnation of Anti-Christ, it almost requires it to be so.
I believe the bible is clear, that this final deception will see both Jew and Gentile seek their hearts desire, which for the Gentile is to reject God, and build their own 'tower that reaches into heaven who's builer is not God'. For the Jew, they desire 'the' Messiah, that will rescue them from their situations and enemies, but a messiah that allows them to stay in their sin.
Both these desires are Anti-Christ, and I believe Satan has been busy to create this condition and see it to fulfillment, receiving worship from both as Anti-Christ gives both desires, which is 'peace and securuity, seperate from Jesus and His father. Peace on earth without peace with God. Peace through compromise of God's truth and not true heavenly salvation.
Anti-Christ will tickle their ears with their hearts desire, flattery rather than the truth that brings not salvation of the body, but salvation of the heart and soul.
I have 'NO' personal doubt over this at all. I think the big picture throughout scriptures through literal prophecy and scripture, also type, shadow, anti-type and even understanding the war between man, Satan and God requires and points clearly to it!
If we didn't receive Him, we must receive him instead! The world has seen many dictators with the same desire, to obtain the ultimate prize, world power over men and to sit where only God should sit. This dictator will be different to those that 'almost' accomplished that goal. He will use not might (at first), but has the Serpents deceitful tongue, understands manipulation and flattery. Knows how to twist scripture, that turns lies into what appears to be truth and righteousness.
Yep, no question, there will be a man that will be the closest incarnation we will ever see to Satan in the flesh. I believe, other than the literal scriptures that appear in the bible regarding the man of sin and his many other names. The bible indicates this plainly in so many other shadows and types.
Sonic, you are right in this observation. I think these little antichrists are merely a sign of the spirit of lawlessness already at work in our world as Paul states in 2 Thessalonians. Even Jesus said, that there would be many claiming to be him in the last days, which we have seen. However, despite all the generalizations, there always seems to be one grand pubah of them all who all the non-elect in the world will bow down to. I have not seen this man, yet.
Paul distinguishes very clearly between "the man of lawlessness" and "the spirit of lawlessness already at work in the world."
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/17/2008 6:52:09 AM
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girlofmanycolors
Posts: 38
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I agree, according to my understanding of scripture(which is inadequate I admit), I believe there will be a MAN of lawlessness. And yes, these false messiahs are merely rough drafts.
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/19/2008 12:31:41 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Just when you think you have read it all...along comes anther take on the story. Here is one describing the Antichrist in a more limited fashion and in fact has the ring of truth to it.
http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/chapter_12.html
This would lend more support to a Muslim based faction and would bring me back to thinking the leadership could well come from Russia.
I think it is important that we try to integrate today’s world and leadership into the end picture as opposed to trying to develop something that does not exist, such as a revised Roman Empire. To me the EU just doesn’t have the traction to cause much damage in today’s world…Russia does and of course the US does.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/19/2008 2:28:33 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Just when you think you have read it all...along comes anther take on the story. Here is one describing the Antichrist in a more limited fashion and in fact has the ring of truth to it.
http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/chapter_12.html
This would lend more support to a Muslim based faction and would bring me back to thinking the leadership could well come from Russia.
I think it is important that we try to integrate today’s world and leadership into the end picture as opposed to trying to develop something that does not exist, such as a revised Roman Empire. To me the EU just doesn’t have the traction to cause much damage in today’s world…Russia does and of course the US does.
Bob
I read most of the chapter 12 exerpt and then went to the home webpage for Christian Crusade, and I've got to tell you that this site is TYPICAL of the Church-first mentality of Western Christians. Tommie, the founder, actually calls for Christians and Jews to move to the Western nations! Like the prophet Agabus' warning to Paul not to go to Jerusalem, he warns Christians and Jews that a great persecution through radical Islamic nations will occur in the Middle East and that it would be safer for them to move here. HOWEVER, what did Paul do? He was zealous enough for his people, that he went to Jerusalem ANYWAY! Was he right to do so? Not if we believe that the Spirit of God was telling him not to go. BUT, the prophet's words never included a command for Paul not to go; it merely revealed what was to happen to Paul.
Acts 21:8-14
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.
KJV
Brother Tommie says that he knows that his warning will "fall on deaf ears," but he actually advocates AGAINST making aliyah to Isra'el! Every Jew who celebrates Pesach (Passover) repeats the words at the end of the Seder, "Next year in Jerusalem!" as the hope of all Isra'el to go HOME to haEretz Yisra'el, the Land of Israel! Messianic Jewish believers WANT to go and herald the coming of Yeshua` the Messiah to Isra'el! And, they trust GOD to protect Isra'el!
Isa 54:7-17
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
KJV
Antichrist or Islamic persecution, the LORD, YHVH, shall protect, rescue, and prevail! That is the confidence that we have in YHVH and in His Righteous Servant and Son Yeshua`s soon Return!
Retrobyter
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/19/2008 10:26:22 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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Thanks Roy…I was hoping you would pick up on this because I value your opinion and insight.
While we’re on the subject…it has always been my impression that the actions of the persecution against Israel in the latter days would pretty much be limited to the region of the Mid East and focused on Israel. I see turmoil existing in the rest of the world and harassment against Christians in general but not world wide slaughter as one might expect in a war region. Would you concur or do you expect the singling out to be world wide?
The other thing, I don’t see is any wide spread use of nuclear unless it would be at the very end when things are truly desperate. I say because there is still a city up until the the killing of the two wittiness’s and then the destruction of the city is an earthquake. Nuclear weapons would pretty much wipe out the region.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/19/2008 3:07:59 PM
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Milliecat
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I read most of it too and have a hard time believing that the U.S. is going to defend Israel in any war from now on. Right now, Condoleeza Rice is trying to pursuade Israel to give up more land and last May, Bush told the Israelis not to bomb the nuclear sites in Iran. Apparently that means that we would not help them with the consequences. The world is becoming more and more anti-Semitic, even in this country. So I think Israel will be alone at the end.
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/19/2008 7:08:03 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Hi Millie...
Certainly no man knows the plans of God. To take everything for granted as described in the 12th chapter would be a mistake...that being said the things said about the AC do give somewhat of a fresh viewpoint and are not necessary unscriptural. As an example, I don’t think that we will see world wide chaos, which I think would be contained mostly in the Mid East. That being said…the judgments against the AC might be more far reaching because it would also be judgment against those who support him.
If we get locked into one view we might miss the big picture.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/20/2008 12:44:30 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 148
Joined: 11/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Millie...
Certainly no man knows the plans of God. To take everything for granted as described in the 12th chapter would be a mistake...that being said the things said about the AC do give somewhat of a fresh viewpoint and are not necessary unscriptural. As an example, I don’t think that we will see world wide chaos, which I think would be contained mostly in the Mid East. That being said…the judgments against the AC might be more far reaching because it would also be judgment against those who support him.
If we get locked into one view we might miss the big picture.
Bob
I've seen in a couple of posts that some here don't think the chaos will be worldwide. How could the judgements of God, or maybe I should say, wrath, be for just one part of the world, especially when this country has been so rebellious? And how could this country just sit back while these horrible events will be taking place?
I have wondered in the past if the Antichrist was a particular "religion" or the terrorists belonging to that religion. I have had dreams about it. But I can't connect the "New World Order" with the religion. Islamic countries, in my opinion, will not give in to a world government, because they would consider them infidels. At the same time, the world government will not be able to force itself on Islamic countries. Who would be in charge of this world government since you have very powerful countries like China and Russia and the U.S. all wanting to be the "boss"?
I think the world government will maybe just be a financial government. The rest, I don't know.
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/20/2008 12:55:44 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 148
Joined: 11/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Millie...
Certainly no man knows the plans of God. To take everything for granted as described in the 12th chapter would be a mistake...that being said the things said about the AC do give somewhat of a fresh viewpoint and are not necessary unscriptural. As an example, I don’t think that we will see world wide chaos, which I think would be contained mostly in the Mid East. That being said…the judgments against the AC might be more far reaching because it would also be judgment against those who support him.
If we get locked into one view we might miss the big picture.
Bob
No offense, Bob. You certainly know more than I do. But you seem to be stepping away from Scriptural prophecy. The way the world is going, most people would no doubt, support Antichrist, whoever or whatever he is. It would have seemed impossible to me a couple of years ago. But now after seeing my inexperienced and do nothing Senator win the Presidency and be adored by millions, not only in this country, I can see how people could fall for a slick, charismatic leader.
Anyway, in order for the entire world to be involved which is what I think Scripture says, something big will have to happen, like nuclear war, a major epidemic killing millions, or I know, go ahead and roll your eyes, the Rapture of the Church. I still think that is what will happen. I'm not being narrow minded. I just think something will have to totally shake this world and cause major destruction and chaos throughout. I don't think that the financial world government being formed now is the government of Antichrist.
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/20/2008 1:38:43 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Millie…we are talking about two events here; first is the tribulation created by the Antichrist. This will begin in earnest beginning at the mid point of the last week. This is what I’m thinking might be localized to the Middle East. The events of God’s judgment…God’s Wrath…will certainly be a world wide event but this occurs very late in the week and IMO is certainly less than a year in length and according to many might be contained in a single day.
It is my opinion as well as many others that the Church will be gathered just before the beginning of God’s Wrath which is at the opening of the sixth seal, thus we won’t be here for the event.
Hope this explains what my thinking is.
There is another thread on the rapture and you might go there and read up on the thinking. Most people do not see a pre-tribulation rapture.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/21/2008 12:10:00 AM
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Milliecat
Posts: 148
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Millie…we are talking about two events here; first is the tribulation created by the Antichrist. This will begin in earnest beginning at the mid point of the last week. This is what I’m thinking might be localized to the Middle East. The events of God’s judgment…God’s Wrath…will certainly be a world wide event but this occurs very late in the week and IMO is certainly less than a year in length and according to many might be contained in a single day.
It is my opinion as well as many others that the Church will be gathered just before the beginning of God’s Wrath which is at the opening of the sixth seal, thus we won’t be here for the event.
Hope this explains what my thinking is.
There is another thread on the rapture and you might go there and read up on the thinking. Most people do not see a pre-tribulation rapture.
Bob
I've read many threads on the Rapture over the last few years and none of them changed my mind. I still believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, or maybe a Mid-Trib but absolutely not a Post-Trib. Anyway, before a moderator reminds me I'm off topic, I'll just say thanks for your response. I guess when anyone talks about Antichrist, I assume they are speaking of the Tribulation and I guess I think of the entire 7yrs. I don't get as deeply into it as most people here. Thank you.
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/21/2008 12:13:59 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Bless you sister...
Bob 
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/21/2008 12:36:26 AM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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As in the words of Moses, "The best test of prophecy is whether it comes to pass." Therefore, regardless of pre- or post-trib, I think it is important to discern the future events and the things to watch for. This way, if it turns out there is no pre-trib rapture, all of us still know what to look for. Information is important. Thus, why we are discussing the Antichrist and debating the length of the tribulation, etc.
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In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/21/2008 12:47:38 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Amen Josh...lets not be surprised if things don't quite work out quite the way we had it figured because none of us have it nailed.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/21/2008 1:24:11 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Thanks Roy…I was hoping you would pick up on this because I value your opinion and insight.
While we’re on the subject…it has always been my impression that the actions of the persecution against Israel in the latter days would pretty much be limited to the region of the Mid East and focused on Israel. I see turmoil existing in the rest of the world and harassment against Christians in general but not world wide slaughter as one might expect in a war region. Would you concur or do you expect the singling out to be world wide?
The other thing, I don’t see is any wide spread use of nuclear unless it would be at the very end when things are truly desperate. I say because there is still a city up until the the killing of the two wittiness’s and then the destruction of the city is an earthquake. Nuclear weapons would pretty much wipe out the region.
Bob
Thanks for your trust. I believe the former is correct. The actions of the persecution against Isra'el WILL be limited to the region of the Middle East and, yes, focused on Isra'el. Obviously, the Wrath of God will spill out over the whole world (how can a cataclysmic event like a meteorITE shower do anything but?), but largely it will be the result of His Wrath against those who attack Isra'el. This Wrath DOES bleed over against those nations who do nothing to help her.
As far as nuclear war, I don't know. But, I would expect that Isra'el will miraculously survive one, should it come to that. "No weapon formed against you shall prosper," the Scriptures say. I would believe that that includes nuclear weapons. I love the passage, too! Look at this:
Isaiah 54:15-17
15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
KJV
The reason why no weapon that is formed against Isra'el shall prosper is because GOD has created the smith (Hebrew: "charash" or "fabricator") who blows on the coals and the waster (Hebrew: "mashchiyt" or "the one who ruins")! The CREATOR messes up the fabrication of the device AND He messes up the deployment of the weapon because He CONTROLS the people behind them! Isn't that awesome? It won't matter how many TONS of nuclear material they refine if the weapons MALFUNCTION or are MISHANDLED! How can Iran or any of Isra'el's neighbors hope to "touch the apple of God's eye?" Talk about suicide! What will happen to Iran if GOD decides to mess with the minds of the nuclear deployment team to the degree that the bombs go off before they ever leave the launch pads? He doesn't even need to mess with their minds; He may just cause a nervous jerk at a most inopportune moment!
I don't know how GOD will do it; I only believe that we can trust Him to protect Isra'el as He has promised to do and as He has done in the past.
Roy (aka Retrobyter)
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/21/2008 1:36:21 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom again, Bob.
I was just playing "what if" in my mind (as I often do to mix things up a little and see if things make sense from a different perspective), and I started toying with the idea of Iran annexing Iraq after our troops have been pulled out. What if THEY rebuild Bavel (Babylon) and attempt to send off their missiles from there? That might explain the destruction of Bavel as reported in Revelation! Just a thought...
Retrobyter
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RE: Is the Antichrist real? - 11/21/2008 12:29:27 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Iran annexing Iraq after our troops have been pulled out.
Roy I see this as being a very likely event if the U.S. pulls out in the near future. Shia Muslims are the general masses in both countries and with Iraq be very weak in military there will be nothing to stop Iran from taking over. I see Iran and Iraq being one force within a short period of time, whats to stop them.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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