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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 1:49:27 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Actually we a told to lay hands on the sick and they will recover. Not try, but do. Not that I totally understand that, but I'm just telling you what the Bible says.
I disagree with your interpretation of scripture.
Mark 16:18
they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
This is a prophecy about signs that will follow the church. These signs most certainly have followed the church. However, this is not a statement that healing is always immediate. It is not a claim that laying on hands will always work, not even a claim that it will always work with enough faith. It is a simple statement that it will happen, and it does happen, but not always.
Not to mention that Matthew has a different view of what happened there:
16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." Matthew 28
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 4:41:37 PM
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sledmt
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The Lord commanded us to go do. Not try. I'm only stating what the Bible says, I'm not trying to make it conform to what I see in my own life.
This is not to say that we should not try, but I believe that the Bible modeled this for us: when we fail, we should seek the prensence of God and ask why we failed. Through the Gospels, Christ rebukes the discliples for their lack of faith. He never says, well just trying is good enough. No. Christ always pushes them to do better. Should we also pursue this idea. Yes.
Should we not also desire to walk up to the blind and just say the words "Be healed in the Name of Jesus", and instantly the man see. To walk with such a presence of God, that we see instantly what he desire to do.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 4:50:58 PM
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sledmt
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I understand where your coming from, but here is the problem I have with that doctrine.
One.
This idea breeds doubt. Because nothing ever really happens, doubt began to fill their mind.
Two.
People who sometimes believe this are let to believe that if they prayed that good. But what happens, happens. There is really no expectation for God to show. And as a rule the people that believe in this, really don't began to move like the dispiles at all.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 5:11:40 PM
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Kat_D
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Sledmt: It would be helpful if you could say whose posts you are addressing or use the quote feature. As it is, I have no idea.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 5:29:35 PM
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delete123
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quote:
Through the Gospels, Christ rebukes the discliples for their lack of faith.
Sledmt~
Jesus did not rebuke His disciples for lack of faith, I believe you are mistaken. I believe He was correcting their doubt, because they could not cast out the demon. It was more that the disciples didn't understand the power of His name.
They had faith, He rebuked Peter when Peter refused to accept that Jesus would have to be crucified. Even when the cock crowed thrice, He still didn't rebuke Peter, but allowed for repentance and used Him in His kingdom afterwards.
Jesus Himself said if you have faith like that of a mustard seed, you will say Mountain be removed and with your faith it will be.
He also showed again a 'little' faith with the woman with the issue in Luke 15. Her faith was if she could only just touch the hem of His robe, she would be saved. He even told her Daughter your faith has made you whole.
Then you have the man that didn't much faith at all and he told Jesus to help me with my 'unbelief' and his son was healed.
So faith like that of a mustard seed, says: A "little" faith goes a long way and can be very powerful.
edited for spelling
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 5:35:38 PM
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delete123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: donofhope
Very good posts. We are told in the bible to pray for the sick. We should also pray for wisdom to realize the Lords will. Passing from this world without fear, and knowing our lord and cumforter is with us, is a healing in itself.
Donofhope~
You never pray for your own Wisdom, but for His wisdom. For if you pray for your own, it brings much sorrow.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 6:01:50 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
quote:
Through the Gospels, Christ rebukes the discliples for their lack of faith.
Sledmt~
Jesus did not rebuke His disciples for lack of faith, I believe you are mistaken. I believe He was correcting their doubt, because they could not cast out the demon. It was more that the disciples didn't understand the power of His name.
I believe that the King James actualy says faithless, not doubt. But in all reality, doubt is just the absent of faith. So, the Lord was still rebuking them for their lack of faith, or their abundance of doubt. It is still really the same thing.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 6:03:21 PM
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sledmt
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Kat_D,
What did you mean by your verse in Matthew????
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 6:13:49 PM
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dwain
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There were instances (when Christ healed) where faith was exercised by someone other than the person in need, who may not have had the necessary faith. Glory to God. Someone may be praying for you right now.
John 4
[49] The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
[50] Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
[51] And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
< Message edited by dwain -- 11/19/2008 9:20:35 PM >
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 6:18:59 PM
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dwain
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I believe your faith in Christ, must be greater than your faith that you can please him by keeping the law.
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 7:01:59 PM
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delete123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
quote:
Through the Gospels, Christ rebukes the discliples for their lack of faith.
Sledmt~
Jesus did not rebuke His disciples for lack of faith, I believe you are mistaken. I believe He was correcting their doubt, because they could not cast out the demon. It was more that the disciples didn't understand the power of His name.
I believe that the King James actualy says faithless, not doubt. But in all reality, doubt is just the absent of faith. So, the Lord was still rebuking them for their lack of faith, or their abundance of doubt. It is still really the same thing.
And you misinterpret because when He called them faithless (KJV) it wasn't His disciples it was to the people who brought him forth. because Jesus told his disciples in I'll start here 9: 28-29 and when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, why could we not cast him out?
29 and he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but prayer and fasting. (There is no rebuke there!)
If you read the passage of Mark 9:14-21 you will see that he is rebuking the multitude.
BTW: this is from KJV
and again you are mistaken they are not the same
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 7:22:59 PM
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Dancre
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Not a problem, buddy. faith is scary. Too many folks compare God to people and say, what if God doesn't come through? (MY dad who believes like a lot of folks here, not really believing in faith, actually said this to me.) It's bad enough to trust a human, it's even worse to trust someone as big as God, not to mention you can't see HIm. Plus the devil doesn't want you to trust God. Nooooo, that would give glory to God. So of course he puts fear and doubt on the heart that God will let them down. I hate the devil!!! :((((( Are you wanting to stand if faith for someone else?
And just to go off the topic. :) Also you have to remember, sometimes God doesn't do things the way we want Him to do like healing. My boss was diagnosed with breast cancer. She's a wonderful Catholic woman who loves God. I'm shocked at how God's hand is on her. HE is moving so much in her life. She got a free manogram (and those things are PRICEY!!) Her's was experimental, so it was free and she also got a $25 gift certificate. SHe needed new nightgowns that open in the front for her surgery and now she has the money to get them. But what made my eyes pop out of my head was the favor from the clerical group. These people DO. NOT. LIKE. HER. But they want to buy christmas gifts for the kids, CHRISTMAS GIFTS!! WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE???   , groceries, GROCERIES?? THESE CHEAPSKATES??? and other things. I think what happened was aliens came down and replaced my co-workers. If you see any pods out on the street, would please pop them open and send back my co-workers, b/c I don't know who THESE people are!!! (They don't do this to people they don't like.) Ok, I'm back.
Anyway, we say God chose not to do something like healing or taking care of the bills b/c He didn't do what we wanted Him to do. Like me saying, Vic, you don't love your family the way I think you should, which means you don't love your family. But back to healing, we don't see a miracle healing, so we say, God chose not to heal. BUT we don't see God's hands directing the surgeon's hands or the angels comforting her after the surgery or God's healing power that keeps away the infections. We don't see God putting the right people to be over her and pushing her to the front of the line. How sad!! We don't see what happens behind the scenes, so we say, God chose not to heal. If that's the case, then maybe we should worship the hospitals and doctors who did do the healing. It's like what God placed upon my heart today is that He does so many miracles in our lives each day, but b/c we are looking for the BIG thing, we accuse God of not doing what He promised. He said it was like looking for a sunrise at 5pm. You look to the east and see only darkness, but never see the beautiful sunset behind. How sad. 
Anyway, I see God moving in her life and I see Him lining up the best surgeon in the country who is working on her. She got bumped up, is getting favor from the GASP!! Clerical group and soon she will be back at work. If that's not God healing her, I don't know what is. It grieves my heart when folks talk about how God chose "not" to heal and only talk about their faith and yet ignore those little miracles that God did to heal them. Sad. :( So remember, when you think God said no to something, turn around and see the sunset. :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Thank you Dancre for your second response. It makes sense to me.
Thanx also to all others who have responded. Your thoughts and views are very helpful. You make some very good and valid points.
Thanx Little 1 for making the distinction between Faith and feelings.
Therein our difficulties lie as humans. When we are hurt - lose our job, fall ill, or face other problems in life - it is our feelings that come to the fore. Denial, fear, doubts, anger etc ... etc ...
And whether we like it or not, intentionally or not, our Faith takes a knock. We don't mean to waver or lose our Faith. But the initial hurt claims Faith as its first victim as it were. We act like humans and lash out blindly at God for having let us down.
Of course, not everyone is like that. I've known people with long and very painful illnesses whose Faith has remained un-shakable throughout their lengthy ordeals.
Hence my favourite prayer from Mark 9:24 - I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 7:53:30 PM
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delete123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
Not a problem, buddy. faith is scary. Too many folks compare God to people and say, what if God doesn't come through? (MY dad who believes like a lot of folks here, not really believing in faith, actually said this to me.) It's bad enough to trust a human, it's even worse to trust someone as big as God, not to mention you can't see HIm. Plus the devil doesn't want you to trust God. Nooooo, that would give glory to God. So of course he puts fear and doubt on the heart that God will let them down. I hate the devil!!! :((((( Are you wanting to stand if faith for someone else?
And just to go off the topic. :) Also you have to remember, sometimes God doesn't do things the way we want Him to do like healing. My boss was diagnosed with breast cancer. She's a wonderful Catholic woman who loves God. I'm shocked at how God's hand is on her. HE is moving so much in her life. She got a free manogram (and those things are PRICEY!!) Her's was experimental, so it was free and she also got a $25 gift certificate. SHe needed new nightgowns that open in the front for her surgery and now she has the money to get them. But what made my eyes pop out of my head was the favor from the clerical group. These people DO. NOT. LIKE. HER. But they want to buy christmas gifts for the kids, CHRISTMAS GIFTS!! WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE??? , groceries, GROCERIES?? THESE CHEAPSKATES??? and other things. I think what happened was aliens came down and replaced my co-workers. If you see any pods out on the street, would please pop them open and send back my co-workers, b/c I don't know who THESE people are!!! (They don't do this to people they don't like.) Ok, I'm back.
Anyway, we say God chose not to do something like healing or taking care of the bills b/c He didn't do what we wanted Him to do. Like me saying, Vic, you don't love your family the way I think you should, which means you don't love your family. But back to healing, we don't see a miracle healing, so we say, God chose not to heal. BUT we don't see God's hands directing the surgeon's hands or the angels comforting her after the surgery or God's healing power that keeps away the infections. We don't see God putting the right people to be over her and pushing her to the front of the line. How sad!! We don't see what happens behind the scenes, so we say, God chose not to heal. If that's the case, then maybe we should worship the hospitals and doctors who did do the healing. It's like what God placed upon my heart today is that He does so many miracles in our lives each day, but b/c we are looking for the BIG thing, we accuse God of not doing what He promised. He said it was like looking for a sunrise at 5pm. You look to the east and see only darkness, but never see the beautiful sunset behind. How sad.
Anyway, I see God moving in her life and I see Him lining up the best surgeon in the country who is working on her. She got bumped up, is getting favor from the GASP!! Clerical group and soon she will be back at work. If that's not God healing her, I don't know what is. It grieves my heart when folks talk about how God chose "not" to heal and only talk about their faith and yet ignore those little miracles that God did to heal them. Sad. :( So remember, when you think God said no to something, turn around and see the sunset. :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Thank you Dancre for your second response. It makes sense to me.
Thanx also to all others who have responded. Your thoughts and views are very helpful. You make some very good and valid points.
Thanx Little 1 for making the distinction between Faith and feelings.
Therein our difficulties lie as humans. When we are hurt - lose our job, fall ill, or face other problems in life - it is our feelings that come to the fore. Denial, fear, doubts, anger etc ... etc ...
And whether we like it or not, intentionally or not, our Faith takes a knock. We don't mean to waver or lose our Faith. But the initial hurt claims Faith as its first victim as it were. We act like humans and lash out blindly at God for having let us down.
Of course, not everyone is like that. I've known people with long and very painful illnesses whose Faith has remained un-shakable throughout their lengthy ordeals.
Hence my favourite prayer from Mark 9:24 - I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Dance~
This is hilarious, Awesome, and just beautiful!
Amen
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 7:54:36 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
quote:
Through the Gospels, Christ rebukes the discliples for their lack of faith.
Sledmt~
Jesus did not rebuke His disciples for lack of faith, I believe you are mistaken. I believe He was correcting their doubt, because they could not cast out the demon. It was more that the disciples didn't understand the power of His name.
I believe that the King James actualy says faithless, not doubt. But in all reality, doubt is just the absent of faith. So, the Lord was still rebuking them for their lack of faith, or their abundance of doubt. It is still really the same thing.
And you misinterpret because when He called them faithless (KJV) it wasn't His disciples it was to the people who brought him forth. because Jesus told his disciples in I'll start here 9: 28-29 and when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, why could we not cast him out?
29 and he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but prayer and fasting. (There is no rebuke there!)
If you read the passage of Mark 9:14-21 you will see that he is rebuking the multitude.
BTW: this is from KJV
and again you are mistaken they are not the same
You need to go back and look at the account of this from all three Gospels. Then tell me that the Discplices were the one not being rebuke. Look beyond what you have been taught.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 7:56:46 PM
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sledmt
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Good point Dancre
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 8:12:52 PM
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SonInMe1
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James 5 tells us to gather the elders in prayer and to lay hands on the sick.
The core question is, does faith heal? The answer is no. Faith does not heal, God does. An avenue to healing is faith and its not the only avenue though without faith it "lowers our chances". I know, not the best way to put that but I think its somewhat accurate.
Obediance. Deut. 28: 1-14 suggests good things will happen if we obey God.
God's will. Job shows us that God is soveriegn and we are to have faith, not neccesarily a total understanding of God to know He will do what He does.
Faith. Our faith comes from God. It is a gift He gives us so we can have a way towards Him and all the good He has for us...and tempering...and tribulation. Our part in the covenent we have with God is to have the faith. God's part? He does what He does and we are to trust that. Yes God has healed me of the incruable. God also allows my own personal thorn, nerve damage. ( Not in any way do I mean this as a comparison to Paul or why God allowed that in Paul. I don't know why God would heal me..and then not heal me, I can guess of course but ultimately, God is God....and I am not )
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/18/2008 9:30:32 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Kat_D,
What did you mean by your verse in Matthew????
I meant there are two different accounts of the Great Commission:
This is the Great Commission according to Matthew 28:
16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." Matthew 28
This is the Great Commission according to Mark 16:
14 "Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen."
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/19/2008 12:46:14 AM
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dwain
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Right, God can heal on his own. There were instances where unbelief hindered Jesus ministry. Faith opens the door to it. God can heal through us. Something as simple as a jagged cut- the Doc knows it will heal- in faith, he helps the process along by stitches, w/o the stitches, guts might fall out.
Quote:
James 5 tells us to gather the elders in prayer and to lay hands on the sick.
Our faith (allows God to be pleased w/ us) can help the process, as the elders when they pray.
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/19/2008 6:03:25 AM
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dwain
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I think Job is a prime example of faith in it's rarest form. He prayed with the condition that even if God ignored his prayer, he was going to pray anyway.
The faith of the Old Testament Saints is evidenced simply by and through the Spirit of Christ. 1 Peter 1.
Gideon was from the smallest (maybe the most insignifcant tribe, (1/2 mannaseh) and He was the least in the family. It sometimes looks like the Lord chooses those who have every reason to throw their hands up in the air and say, "This is crazy" "How could God ever use me" "I've done such and such." (Moses, Paul, King David, ME) yet once the initial apprehension to move in Christ is sidestepped, and you begin the faith journey or calling God has for you, in the proportion that you were faithless, He makes you faithful with the help of the Holy Spirit and others.
< Message edited by dwain -- 11/19/2008 9:25:29 PM >
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/19/2008 11:42:13 AM
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mvic
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Thank you Dancre for your Post No. 37.
Thank you for your insight and for what you said. It is very helpful to me.
God bless.
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/19/2008 12:08:02 PM
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Kat_D
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21 "For she said to herself, "If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well." 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well." -Matthew 9
There was nothing so morally excellent about her faith that it produced a cure...it was her faith in the One who performed the cure that made her well.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/19/2008 1:39:05 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
......Hence my favourite prayer from Mark 9:24 - I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
It's almost as if the Centurion was saying: "I believe Lord but I'm struggling with all these thoughts and feelings which are flooding my mind; help me overcome them."
If this is so, the 'unbelief' the Centurion mentioned here was not a 'lack of faith' but rather 'the torment he was going through in his mind!' It may be worth studying the original Greek to see if the words 'believe' and 'unbelief' are from the same root word (or not).
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RE: How much Faith is needed? - 11/19/2008 4:24:18 PM
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mvic
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You are right Little 1. That's exactly what the father of the sick boy was saying to Jesus in Mark 9:24.
And that should give us comfort when we too, in our moment of weakness, struggle with our human emotions, doubts and fears. The knowledge that He'll forgive, and that He hears our prayers, will give us courage and strength to endure whatever comes our way.
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Whenever I stand in faith for anything, it's really Him holding me up, I'm just, well, a sack of meat in His hands. :) He does everything!!! :) It's one heck of a ride!!!
