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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 12:36:55 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
He has - in the death and resurrection of His Son.
Dave, you must have misread what I wrote.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 12:43:41 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
That's how bad we are. Simple.
I don't have any rosy delusions about humankind as a whole, but no, nobody is that bad.
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"ultimate Gandalf"? Mm.
Yep. A super-hero Kris Kringle to the max. 
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 12:54:41 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I don't have any rosy delusions about humankind as a whole, but no, nobody is that bad.
Well, you’lol never understand hell, then. Or the holiness of God.
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Yep. A super-hero Kris Kringle to the max.
I’m getting the picture why you don’t understand hell.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 1:10:27 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Well, you’lol never understand hell, then. Or the holiness of God.
HardKnox, I guess I won't. I'm imagining a 12-year-old Kashmiri boy who falls to his death trying to get a stray goat. The kid had 12 short years to get it right, and now he goes off to the neverending torture DaveW described. Exactly how bad was he? --To use just one example. The more such examples one uses, the more melodramatic it gets, but that's what we're talking about, individual humans.
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Yep. A super-hero Kris Kringle to the max.
I’m getting the picture why you don’t understand hell.
Why so? Is God "love agape" or not? Please don't get hung up on my silly allusions. The bottom line is that the most compassionate entity we can imagine creating the most heinous punishment we can imagine is such a twisted, massive irony that some people would go nuts if they believed it.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 1:19:01 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
HardKnox, I guess I won't. I'm imagining a 12-year-old Kashmiri boy who falls to his death trying to get a stray goat. The kid had 12 short years to get it right, and now he goes off to the neverending torture DaveW described. Exactly how bad was he? --To use just one example. The more such examples one uses, the more melodramatic it gets, but that's what we're talking about, individual humans.
Fortunately, we have God’s revelation of his justice to keep us from falling into the chasm of human sentiment.
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Why so? Is God "love agape" or not? Please don't get hung up on my silly allusions.
Silly allusions have a way of making God look silly.
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The bottom line is that the most compassionate entity we can imagine creating the most heinous punishment we can imagine is such a twisted, massive irony that some people would go nuts if they believed it.
God is not a construct of our imagination. When we imagine gods they always turn out to be mere supermen and not God. There’s a long history behind this which was broken at the Cross. The God of the Bible, outside of human sentimental imagination, is holy (beyond imagination), so much so that he will not allow even the slightest blemish in his presence. Since he made man to be immortal, man must die for his sin... forever.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 1:30:53 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 333
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Fortunately, we have God’s revelation of his justice to keep us from falling into the chasm of human sentiment.
Fortunately, we have some people's assertion of God's tyrannical nature to keep us from falling into the chasm of fully comprehending the concept of love.
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Why so? Is God "love agape" or not? Please don't get hung up on my silly allusions.
Silly allusions have a way of making God look silly.
Silly allusions retracted. Sorry, neither of my examples were meant to be disrespectful. You didn't answer my question.
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The bottom line is that the most compassionate entity we can imagine creating the most heinous punishment we can imagine is such a twisted, massive irony that some people would go nuts if they believed it.
God is not a construct of our imagination. When we imagine gods they always turn out to be mere supermen and not God. There’s a long history behind this which was broken at the Cross. The God of the Bible, outside of human sentimental imagination, is holy (beyond imagination), so much so that he will not allow even the slightest blemish in his presence. Since he made man to be immortal, man must die for his sin... forever.
I'm not presuming God is a construct of our imagination here. I'm weighing various assertions as I understand them. Do I understand you to be saying that the assertions that love and compassion are key characteristics of God are false? What about omniscient?
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 1:46:27 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Fortunately, we have some people's assertion of God's tyrannical nature to keep us from falling into the chasm of fully comprehending the concept of love.
His holiness is his tyrannical nature? Interesting.]
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I'm not presuming God is a construct of our imagination here. I'm weighing various assertions as I understand them. Do I understand you to be saying that the assertions that love and compassion are key characteristics of God are false? What about omniscient?
“God is love.” That is biblical. The question is, does that mean what all the pop singers say it means? How does the Bible (not movies, hip-hop, or Teen Magazine) define God’s love? Answer: the Cross. That’s where the “tyrannical” Father emptied out the cup of his wrath onto his own Son who had become our sin. That is the measure of divine love, not humanistic sentimentality.
What about omniscience?
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/24/2008 2:53:45 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Isn't it all non-Christians who go to hell? Or is it only recalcitrant people?
The only people who go to hell are wicked people. And the reason they go to hell is because there is nowhere else for them to go.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 12:47:07 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
His holiness is his tyrannical nature? Interesting.]
If by 'holiness' you mean 'creates human beings who have no chance of avoiding being cast into an eternal lake of fire' then yes.
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“God is love.” That is biblical. The question is, does that mean what all the pop singers say it means? How does the Bible (not movies, hip-hop, or Teen Magazine) define God’s love? Answer: the Cross. That’s where the “tyrannical” Father emptied out the cup of his wrath onto his own Son who had become our sin. That is the measure of divine love, not humanistic sentimentality.
Don't pop singers usually sing about romantic love? Do you think that's what I'm talking about?? 
I know the Bible teaches that we were made in God's image. It's not my belief, but I definitely believe it could be the case. And if it is, then when we feel love for a child, for example, we're feeling an image of God's love, different in degree, not in kind. God, being so much higher, feels love to an nth degree greater than we do, but the difference is of degree, not of kind.
When you limit God's love to God the Father pouring his wrath (torturing?) onto God the Son, that is a difference in kind, not of degree. You may as well call it something else, because "love", in any of its translations, is a human term with particular referents. However I do see why it is important for you to limit the concept of "God is love", since as 'love' is commonly understood doesn't jibe with eternal torture. But that is a usurping of the word and maybe a different word would help avoid confusion.
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What about omniscience?
You wrote, "Since he made man to be immortal, man must die for his sin... forever." An omniscient being new exactly what man was going to be, so his making him immortal/designed to "die forever" was...well... it was quite an unloving thing to do. Dunno what else to say.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 12:53:25 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The only people who go to hell are wicked people. And the reason they go to hell is because there is nowhere else for them to go.
Well, no one's perfect, does "imperfect" = "wicked" to you? And what is it with that curious dichotomy! Well, you're not good enough (or you don't have the right theology?) for heaven, so of course you have to go to the most horrific place imaginable, it's the only other option! 
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 1:04:07 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
Amen...And God doesnt send them there, they send themselves there!
Definitely one of the more popular explanations I see. And very strange! Do they say, "I choose to go to Hell"? Did the 12-year-old Kashmiri boy who said his five daily prayers until he fell to his death choose to go there? What sort of informed decision was he able to make in the 12 short earth years of his life?
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We serve a just God, He loves everyone, and doesnt want to see anyone spend eternity in Hell.
Look at DaveW's description of Hell, and tell me that the God who designed that place loves everyone. Is that accurate, in your opinion?
If God doesn't want to see anyone spend eternity in Hell, yet by many accounts the majority of mankind will, that's not a very successful rescue operation.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 6:41:37 AM
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DaveW
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abraxas: I believe you are judging God by your own definitions of right, wrong, justice, fairness, etc.
God is God and will follow His own meanings of those terms, not ours. What He says is what it is. If you think He is being unjust in creating a horrid place like hell, take it up with Him.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 9:19:13 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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Well, no one's perfect, does "imperfect" = "wicked" to you? And what is it with that curious dichotomy! Well, you're not good enough (or you don't have the right theology?) for heaven, so of course you have to go to the most horrific place imaginable, it's the only other option!
It's neither my place nor yours to judge who the wicked are; your place is to look at your own heart in the light of God's holiness and measure yourself accordingly, as is mine. If after doing that you find yourself without deceit, or immorality, or selfishness, or hatred of any kind, then you have nothing to worry about.
We all get a taste now of both heaven and hell. We all benefit in some way from His provision, we all experience the beauty of His creation in some measure, and we all know some measure of love or kindness. These are from one source, that is God.
And we all know loneliness, emptiness, unfulfilled desires, and the knowledge that we missed opportunities to experience good and do good to others because of our wrong choices. This is what it means to be without God.
At some point, these experiences will no longer be intermingled, but each will be left to the path he has chosen, and they will either remain with the source of goodness and love that they have become one with through Christ, or they will be forever separated from any experience of that love or kindness as a result of their choices.
But in the end, we will all see we knew enough to make such a choice, and we will agree it is more than just.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 9:32:35 AM
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HardKnox
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
If by 'holiness' you mean 'creates human beings who have no chance of avoiding being cast into an eternal lake of fire' then yes.
Holiness means absolute purity and perfection. You don’t seem to impressed with my words so hear the word of the Lord:
And the Lord passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed, “The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6-7)
Notice how the glory of the Lord is revealed. He is merciful, gracious, longsuffering, Abundant in goodness and truth. He keeps mercy for thousands, forgives iniquity and transgression (rebellion) and sin, but he is also holy and just. He will not acquit the unrepentant guilty, but will visit their iniquity on their children for generations. That is the revealed glory of the Lord our God. You seem to take that God is only love. He is both love and justice and the basis of his justice is his perfectly pure holiness that will allow no sin in his presence. “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:” (Psalm 66:18) and Habakkuk 1:13a, “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:”
We come to God in his way, not ours. If we do not come to him his way, he will not accept us.
“I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.” (Amos 5:21-24)
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Don't pop singers usually sing about romantic love? Do you think that's what I'm talking about??
Pop singers and the whole American culture of entertainment teaches a self-centered, all accepting love. This is not the love of God or of the Bible.
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I know the Bible teaches that we were made in God's image. It's not my belief, but I definitely believe it could be the case. And if it is, then when we feel love for a child, for example, we're feeling an image of God's love, different in degree, not in kind. God, being so much higher, feels love to an nth degree greater than we do, but the difference is of degree, not of kind.
The image of God does not explain everything, particularly since that image is now polluted by sin. Human love and sentiment is a dirty shadow of the image of God’s love which is Christ.
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When you limit God's love to God the Father pouring his wrath (torturing?) onto God the Son, that is a difference in kind, not of degree.
The sacrifice of Christ is not a limitation on God’s love. It is the express image of the love of God and the only model of love that we should imitate. There is no love in this world that is worthy of imitation except that which reflects conformity to the image of Christ. “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
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You may as well call it something else, because "love", in any of its translations, is a human term with particular referents. However I do see why it is important for you to limit the concept of "God is love", since as 'love' is commonly understood doesn't jibe with eternal torture. But that is a usurping of the word and maybe a different word would help avoid confusion.
I do not limit God’s love, but you certainly limit his character to make him safe.
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You wrote, "Since he made man to be immortal, man must die for his sin... forever." An omniscient being new exactly what man was going to be, so his making him immortal/designed to "die forever" was...well... it was quite an unloving thing to do. Dunno what else to say.
You forget, he also made man to live forever. Is that a loving blessing or isn’t it. If immortal men suffer torture under his pure wrath forever, they have no one to blame but themselves. Calling God unfair crosses a line... I wouldn’t want to go there. He is not a man. (Hosea 11:9) Why would you expect him to behave like one?
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 11:23:13 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 333
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
It's neither my place nor yours to judge who the wicked are; your place is to look at your own heart in the light of God's holiness and measure yourself accordingly, as is mine. If after doing that you find yourself without deceit, or immorality, or selfishness, or hatred of any kind, then you have nothing to worry about.
With respect, Jack, I don't know why you say I can't consider humankind in general, when Christian doctrine seems to speak in very matter-of-fact generalizations about who is destined for hell: the non-Christian. Christianity comes across to me as something of a chimera and the unintended "strawment" are frustrating--I don't know what your (or the prevailing) take on that actually is. Onother example of this--your above statement appears very works-oriented.
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We all get a taste now of both heaven and hell. We all benefit in some way from His provision, we all experience the beauty of His creation in some measure, and we all know some measure of love or kindness. These are from one source, that is God.
And we all know loneliness, emptiness, unfulfilled desires, and the knowledge that we missed opportunities to experience good and do good to others because of our wrong choices. This is what it means to be without God.
Okay, I can dig all that.
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At some point, these experiences will no longer be intermingled, but each will be left to the path he has chosen, and they will either remain with the source of goodness and love that they have become one with through Christ, or they will be forever separated from any experience of that love or kindness as a result of their choices.
Well now you're talking like every human born on this planet has sufficient time not only to learn all sorts of important life experiences, but to "come to Christ." I know you don't think I should think about the 12-year-old Kashmiri boy, but how was he to have become one with goodness through Christ? Am I asking the wrong Christian? You and I both know that plenty of Christians will boldly say that no non-Christian will avoid eteranal damnation.
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But in the end, we will all see we knew enough to make such a choice, and we will agree it is more than just.
Right. Well let's not lose sight of what set this conversation off.
"How much torture can an Omnicient and Omnipotent God mete out on someone? It is far worse that every human torture ever conceived.
The only reason the person is not instantly destroyed is because God sustains them to endure it all the more.
No escape by "getting used to it." No escape by going insane. Just pure undiluted pain, physical emotional and spiritual forever and ever."
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 11:52:55 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 333
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Holiness means absolute purity and perfection. You don’t seem to impressed with my words so hear the word of the Lord:
And the Lord passed by before him [Moses], and proclaimed, “The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6-7)
Notice how the glory of the Lord is revealed. He is merciful, gracious, longsuffering, Abundant in goodness and truth. He keeps mercy for thousands, forgives iniquity and transgression (rebellion) and sin, but he is also holy and just. He will not acquit the unrepentant guilty, but will visit their iniquity on their children for generations. That is the revealed glory of the Lord our God. You seem to take that God is only love. He is both love and justice and the basis of his justice is his perfectly pure holiness that will allow no sin in his presence. “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:” (Psalm 66:18) and Habakkuk 1:13a, “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:”
HardKnox, the bolded part is a strawman. A common one as I see it, whenever someone, Christian or otherwise, questions the severity of eternal torment. I never questioned the idea of punishment per se. See my response to Jhud for a repost of DaveW's description of eternal hell. There's a lot of ground between that and a coddling push-over God which I am not suggesting.
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We come to God in his way, not ours. If we do not come to him his way, he will not accept us.
If I wore a T-shirt that said, "Jesus loves you, and if you don't believe it he's prepared a place of eternal torture for you", would that be disrespectful satire, or point-blank truth?
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Pop singers and the whole American culture of entertainment teaches a self-centered, all accepting love. This is not the love of God or of the Bible.
Again, a strawman.
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The image of God does not explain everything, particularly since that image is now polluted by sin. Human love and sentiment is a dirty shadow of the image of God’s love which is Christ.
Well then it can only get better.
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The sacrifice of Christ is not a limitation on God’s love. It is the express image of the love of God and the only model of love that we should imitate. There is no love in this world that is worthy of imitation except that which reflects conformity to the image of Christ. “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
I appreciate that sentiment. I don't suppose you mean we all should sacrifice our lives literally; figuratively I see it quite often and I agree with you on this. I must have misread what you wrote earlier.
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I do not limit God’s love, but you certainly limit his character to make him safe.
If someone says God can't make a four-sided circle, or a rock so heavy he can't lift, are they limiting his character to make him safe?
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You forget, he also made man to live forever. Is that a loving blessing or isn’t it.
Well I don't know! Did omniscient God make some men to live forever in the Hell DaveW described? Let's not get off track.
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If immortal men suffer torture under his pure wrath forever, they have no one to blame but themselves. Calling God unfair crosses a line... I wouldn’t want to go there. He is not a man. (Hosea 11:9) Why would you expect him to behave like one?
I don't see concepts of love and justice dependent on the nature of the entity. And, well, this is what got me shaking my head in the first place. How does a person, living a tiny blip of a mortal life, seeing "through a glass, darkly", unfit to be even close to perfect, and in existence without any say in the matter, have no one to blame for themselves for being tortured forever? If you don't feel ok asking that fine, but I feel compelled to.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 1:08:01 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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HardKnox, the bolded part is a strawman.
No. It’s a probe.
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A common one as I see it, whenever someone, Christian or otherwise, questions the severity of eternal torment.
Very perceptive. When a doctrine taught in scripture is trumped on the basis of “severity” one is questioning God at some level. If you believe fully in his holiness and justice and if you believe in the absolute guilt of man, what is your basis for questioning his methods of disposing of rebels? Could it be that he sees things radically and eternally different from you, that the offense against his glory is far more terrible than we can imagine and that we are dull to it because of sin? Could it be that because we are human we hope God will be as human-oriented as we are? Do we really understand the Creator/creature realtionship well enough to question the Judge of all things.
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If I wore a T-shirt that said, "Jesus loves you, and if you don't believe it he's prepared a place of eternal torture for you", would that be disrespectful satire, or point-blank truth?
I wouldn’t recommend it, but it would be accurate. The fact that it would be unloving for us to treat our fellow sinners in this manner has no reflection on how God treats them. That is anthropomorphization.
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Again, a strawman.
OK. So, this isn’t about love. (You’re the one who brought that up though, remember?) What is it about then. You own judgment of “severity”? Is there authority behind that judgment?
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If someone says God can't make a four-sided circle, or a rock so heavy he can't lift, are they limiting his character to make him safe?
It is not a limitation to recognize that God isn’t stupid or does not contradict himself.
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Well I don't know! Did omniscient God make some men to live forever in the Hell DaveW described? Let's not get off track.
I thought this was the track. Yes, he did is the answer. If it were not so the Bible would not teach it and no one would be in hell. Ex. the rich man in the Lazarus story.
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I don't see concepts of love and justice dependent on the nature of the entity. And, well, this is what got me shaking my head in the first place. How does a person, living a tiny blip of a mortal life, seeing "through a glass, darkly", unfit to be even close to perfect, and in existence without any say in the matter, have no one to blame for themselves for being tortured forever? If you don't feel ok asking that fine, but I feel compelled to.
Repeat your question to yourself and replace “tortured forever” with “annihilated”. What difference does it make, from the perspective you’ve presented, how a person is punished?
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 2:05:25 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
HardKnox, I guess I won't. I'm imagining a 12-year-old Kashmiri boy who falls to his death trying to get a stray goat. The kid had 12 short years to get it right, and now he goes off to the neverending torture DaveW described. Exactly how bad was he? --To use just one example. The more such examples one uses, the more melodramatic it gets, but that's what we're talking about, individual humans.
That's an interesting example. It reminds me of a parable by the Master in Matthew 20:1-15:
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
And scripture is quite clear about the price for sin:
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -Romans 6:23
Without the gift, all are condemned to eternal death in torment. Any other doctrine is at odds with the Goodman.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/25/2008 2:10:20 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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Excellent example, Eutychus.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/26/2008 1:38:59 AM
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theredhog
Posts: 56
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
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OK, I don't want to leave anyone out here...
AbbeyGrace,
Why did Jesus die for us? colossians says we were made for Him. (I really think people overlook that)
Adam gave to all of us the DEATH sentence. Can't you just see poor God saying, when He realized His whole creation had been sentenced to death..."Well, that was short and sweet... so, what do I do now?"
Since Hell is not even hinted at in that scene in the garden, (Adam and Eve disobeying) I think God was calmly allowing His plan to unfold. Before He created us He knew He would have to die in our place IF He wanted to spend forever with us. BECAUSE, we were ALL going to DIE. That's it. Die. Not live. If we are not alive we can't bring much pleasure to God. (Revelation 4:11 KJV
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.)
Jesus died to save us from our sins. (tasted death for every man)Our sins cost us our life. That would mean God has to do without the people He created and died for....I just don't think that will be happening.
Mr. Fribbles,
I feel that I gave a very good explanation of John 12:32. I do believe it means He will draw all to Himself just like He said. I don't think we have to "try" and get that out of that scripture either...that's just what it says, plain and simple. Did you look up the "draw" verses?
He will draw all to Himself/no man comes to the Father but by Him/He reigns untill all are subject to Himself then hand it over to God(mission completed).....that really is very simple. But, like Abbey Grace said..."if your name is not written in the Book of Life, you will not enter into the Gates of the Kingdom, that meaning there is only one other place to go......Hell!"
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/26/2008 2:32:14 AM
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theredhog
Posts: 56
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
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Sorry, I hit OK my mistake.
Caps are for emphasis, not shouting :)
He will draw all to Himself/no man comes to the Father but by Him/He reigns untill all are subject to Himself then hand it over to God(mission completed).....that really is very simple. But, like Abbey Grace said..."if your name is not written in the Book of Life, you will not enter into the Gates of the Kingdom, that meaning there is only one other place to go......Hell!"
If it's worth it to you guys, take some time to get an understanding on the basis of universal salvation because it is really difficult to discuss without it. Once you understand the premise, then you can still disagree or agree.
Think of Hell as a condition not a location. Think of the Kingdom as something that can be entered into now. No liar, no drunk, no racist, no one who hates, no one who follows after the flesh can go in. Not because he has been condemned to Hell at the end, but because that is not what the inhabitants of God's kingdom are like and won't be like then either.
Dave W,
quote:
How much torture can an Omnicient and Omnipotent God mete out on someone? It is far worse that every human torture ever conceived.
The only reason the person is not instantly destroyed is because God sustains them to endure it all the more.
No escape by "getting used to it." No escape by going insane. Just pure undiluted pain, physical emotional and spiritual forever and ever.
Why would I go nuts if I believed that stuff? Because I couldn't trust God. I wouldn't know which end was up!! I wouldn't know if I had "believed" the right way, if I had been baptized the right way, if I went to the right church or read the right Bible, or believed the right things..... I would be anything BUT filled with peace that passes understanding. You can read testimonies of people online who went insane because of a belief in Hell.
Andrea Yates killed her kids because of her belief in Hell. She believed that if she was not a good enough mother, her children would reach the age of accountability, die and go to Hell, forever. She did what any loving mother would do. SHE KILLED HER CHILDREN BEFORE THEY HAD A CHANCE TO GO TO HELL!
I feel that I have said everything I can say about this and anything further will just be "strife" or "debate" and will end up in a flesh fest. I think those who do those things are also on the list of people who won't be in the kingdom of God. I don't want to be in THAT number. If anyone wants to talk about it, I have email or pm, as we are probably getting close to violating the forum rules.
God bless,
redhog
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/26/2008 11:48:56 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Redhog,
In the 'eye of the beholders' your post will be appear to be right/wrong good/bad. I see what you're saying. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/26/2008 1:44:47 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
...Andrea Yates killed her kids because of her belief in Hell. She believed that if she was not a good enough mother, her children would reach the age of accountability, die and go to Hell, forever. She did what any loving mother would do. SHE KILLED HER CHILDREN BEFORE THEY HAD A CHANCE TO GO TO HELL! ...
That's one of the most amazing statements I've ever heard. A close second is the notion that anyone has ever gone insane simply for believing in an eternal hell.
Even so, if 90% of the human race went insane for believing in an eternal hell, it wouldn't be a good reason to give people a false hope of eventual relief or to just ignore what Jesus and God has warned as to its reality. That's the Junior High approach to Truth, "I don't like it so I reject it and I will formulate my own reality - and take as many along for the ride that will listen."
Imagine how people would think of me if I convinced them that hell was a place of momentary discomfort after they have endured its horrors for ten thousand years with no end in sight.
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RE: People in hell... for ETERNITY - 11/26/2008 11:50:03 PM
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AbbyGrace
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