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blind faith? - 11/15/2008 3:45:53 AM
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dwain
Posts: 103
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Bible is authoritative. 40 authors, 4000 yrs. Same theme.
Non biblical sources agree and document the historical validity of the Holy Scriptures.
Most reliable compilation of manuscripts in comparison to other historical documents.
In full context, prophecies are pinpointed to place, and calender date.
Applying teachings of the scripture literally prove effective.
Sin is not excused, it is Hated by God, Y'shua took Sins curse and penalty
as the Holiness of His Father required.
The universe is yet to be completely explained or fully understood by science.
That leaves faith.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit reward openly those who believe
they exist.
I hope someone can add to these, I have source material to complement and support all of my points.
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 4:19:34 AM
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internetwraith
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Actually, I would love to see evidence for anything you listed here as "truth".
1) 40 authors, 4000 yrs. Same theme. - Seems like an ongoing project, but this doesn't prove it's true. Just proves its a religions belief system that lots of people believe in.
2) Non biblical sources agree and document the historical validity of the Holy Scriptures. - I would love to see/read these "non biblical sources" myself. Please post links to them.. even ONE is fine.
3) Most reliable compilation of manuscripts in comparison to other historical documents. - What's reliable about them?
4) In full context, prophecies are pinpointed to place, and calender date. - Name ONE that wasn't self-fulfilled, a lie, or could have only been fulfilled through God's intervention.
5) Applying teachings of the scripture literally prove effective. - Proves effective in what way?
6) Sin is not excused, it is Hated by God, Y'shua took Sins curse and penalty as the Holiness of His Father required. - Why is there still sin then, and why are we still responsible if Jesus took care of it?
7) The universe is yet to be completely explained or fully understood by science. - Of course not, but they are at least "trying". There will always be questions regarding the Universe. In what way does the Bible explain everything?
8) Without faith it is impossible to please God. - Why must this be the only way? Doesn't that seem ridiculous? You have to believe in God without any evidence (however, you will provide plenty of evidence in you response). Why doesn't God just reveal himself, in an OBVIOUS way, for everyone on this planet to see (so there is no more of this "faith" element), then we actually have a legitimate choice - 1) either follow him; 2) or, do not follow him! Isn't this a much more logical way to have subservient followers? Isn't this the most loving method to sort out those that deserve to be with God in heaven and those that do not? Why must their be blind faith? Anything other than what I suggest here seems mean, and God isn't supposed to be mean, is he?
9) Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit reward openly those who believe they exist. - What's this obvious reward you speak of? Because SOME Christians are happy? Is this the tale tale sign of those who believe? Wow!
Please, provide source material to complement and support (or at least explain) all of your points. I'd appreciate it.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 5:09:12 AM
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dwain
Posts: 103
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People get paid to do the kind of things you asked me to do. I didn't come here to debate- I came here for friendship and agreement. God needs no apology.
As far as you taking the time to type out your requests, I am sorry you wasted my time, although I will take the liberty to ask you one question, is there a God.
Yes means we agree, no means I asked the wrong question.
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 8:11:32 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: internetwraith
9) Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit reward openly those who believe they exist. - What's this obvious reward you speak of? Because SOME Christians are happy? Is this the tale tale sign of those who believe? Wow!
No it is not a tell-tale. Jesus predicted for His followers persecution and death.
As a former atheist/agnostic (depending on the mood) I used to hate Christianity and all it stood for. But when I started to dig for its history, to prove it was just a collection of stories and adult fairy tales put together, I ended up with two choices:
a) ignore what I had found which was the veracity of Scripture being the Word of God
b) accept it
LONG story short - I came to a point where I no longer had enough faith to remain a skeptic.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 9:12:58 AM
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dwain
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/4/2006
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I see I may have reached a "New" level of mis-communication.
The stop-sign that I rely on (have a miniscule amount of faith in) benefits the one coming and going.
Have a great day-wraith, I started with "a friend loves at all times"
Jesus is the friend that sticks closer than a brother. really.... VBS
(vacation Bible school) 1972 or thereabouts.
Dwain
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 3:33:48 PM
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internetwraith
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Matter of fact, I do believe in a "God", but definitely not he Biblical one, nor any other religious version of a god. However, I'm prob the most open-minded person you've ever run across. All I've been searching for is "truth", wherever that leads me. I've done extreme research, and there simply is NO evidence at all... period. It is a totally "blind faith" based religion, as they all are.
The main point is, if you had grown up in the Middle East, you have a 95% chance you'd be Muslim. If you grew up in India, you'd be Hindu... and so on. Don't you think if the Biblical God was real, this would not be possible? Why on Earth would a loving God do things the way they were done? There are 1 billion Christians, 2 Billion Muslims, 1 Billion Hindus (which is an older religion than Christianity), 1/2 Billion Buddhist, and so on. Why would this be the case, because, as I'm sure you are aware, when you teach a child the "wrong religion" from birth, the brainwashing is much too strong for most people to ever break free and find "truth". Because we grow up in America, there is a incredible chance of being Christian, especially for Southerners. It's all just brainwashing to the max.. or so it seems.
So this "blind faith" you speak of, it's simply guessing in life which one is correct... and of course, as I've mentioned, that USUALLY depends on your geographical location. There are simply people on this planet that will never have the "choice". Choices will never occur to them. This is statistical and obvious.
I guess what I really want to know is, how do you know you "picked" the right path? Because for most people, there is no actual choice. They are taught from birth one way, and that's usually the way they "believe" from that point on. You can't deny this.
And before you ask about what "God" I DO believe in, I believe in the God or Force or whatever you want to label the Energy that started the Big Bang, set Evolution in motion, etc... The same "God" most scientists believe in, The 10th Dimension. There is substantial amount of evidence "suggesting" a creator of sorts, but nothing that supports the Bibles claims... quite the contrary. But I do believe in "God" and this conclusion is based on scientific evidence, historical evidence, logic, etc.. not "faith". Molecular machines, quantum physics, even string theory suggests we are inside the Mind of our Creator, and this "energy" is part of us, makes up what we are, and everything around us. This is undeniable, which I'm sure you'd agree with, but why associate all these "facts" with a pagan myth with no support? It's just weird.
Answer these questions, why would a loving God allow Faith to begin with? He already knows there will be plenty that will Burn FOREVER (which is a ridiculous claim as well)! And according to the Bible, he already knows who will Burn... if he doesn't know, "he" is not God (seems to always be a male deity). If he does, this seems more evil that anything. Creating people to simply watch them fail..? Wow!
But besides all this, you said you had "source material to complement and support all of (your) points". Are you talking about Biblical sources? If so, Sorry for wasting your time. I truly am. Again, I want "truth" no matter where it leads me. I just haven't found anything, except through "blind faith", which was your main point anyways. You claim that it really doesn't require "blind faith" to be a Christian. So where's your proof? Please, a non-Christian is begging someone for HELP, and most Christians aren't even willing to research and gather answerers for people like me. Don't you find this fact strange?
Thanks for your time!
< Message edited by internetwraith -- 11/15/2008 3:52:09 PM >
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 4:01:56 PM
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deermousie
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This is an apologetics question, and a good one. There's a good source dealing with this far better than I could articulate, called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. It's even in outline form (a plus for me, and maybe for you as well). I highly recommend it, as it will answer your hard questions better than I can.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 4:17:32 PM
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11arrows
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dwain
People get paid to do the kind of things you asked me to do. I didn't come here to debate- I came here for friendship and agreement. God needs no apology.
As far as you taking the time to type out your requests, I am sorry you wasted my time, although I will take the liberty to ask you one question, is there a God.
Yes means we agree, no means I asked the wrong question.
So basically, you came here and made a bunch of statements as "facts" and the moment someone questions you about your "facts" you refuse to defend them. Sounds about right.
If the things you say are facts they should be easy to defend. In fact you say your not getting paid to defend them, but the Bible specifically tells you you MUST defend them (Jesus also said to give away all your money, but clearly if you insist on getting paid for spreading the gospel as you have suggested, obviously you are not that interested in the thoughts of Jesus).
You have a disbeliever coming here an sincerely asking you legitimate questions, and yet you still refuse to share the "facts" of Christ. What kind of wacked out version of Christianity is this? Have you even ever opened the Bible?
< Message edited by 11arrows -- 11/15/2008 4:59:29 PM >
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 5:09:31 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
there simply is NO evidence at all... period.
Then surely you would concede there is no evidence for a lack of God, either.
quote:
The main point is, if you had grown up in the Middle East, you have a 95% chance you'd be Muslim. If you grew up in India, you'd be Hindu... and so on. Don't you think if the Biblical God was real, this would not be possible?
Your leaps in logic astound me. Why would God force belief in Him on those who do not want it? That's almost as bad as the Spanish Inquisition.
quote:
Why would this be the case, because, as I'm sure you are aware, when you teach a child the "wrong religion" from birth, the brainwashing is much too strong for most people to ever break free and find "truth".
Not so. I've heard numerous accounts of others who were brought up in a certain religion from birth, yet went on to change their faith later on in life. If you think a person's fate, in terms of religious beliefs, are determined entirely by birth, I would say you vastly underestimate the human power of reason.
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It's all just brainwashing to the max.. or so it seems.
Would you say the fact that most Americans, say, enjoy a good cheeseburger is also brainwashing?
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I guess what I really want to know is, how do you know you "picked" the right path?
Depends on how you mean "know." If you mean, "irrefutably, without any trace of doubt or question," then I would say - I don't. That's where faith comes in. But it is not a blind faith. Everything I've seen and studied, heard and felt, screams that there is Truth, and that I'm on the right path.
quote:
Because for most people, there is no actual choice. They are taught from birth one way, and that's usually the way they "believe" from that point on. You can't deny this.
Yes, I can. To deny the possibility of choice is dehumanizing in a horrific way.
quote:
But I do believe in "God" and this conclusion is based on scientific evidence
Aaah, so you do believe there is evidence out there. I'm curious, why is your evidence acceptable, but Christian evidence is not?
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why would a loving God allow Faith to begin with?
Would you want to spend the rest of your life with a robot programmed to love you, or a living, breathing spouse who chose to?
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If he does, this seems more evil that anything. Creating people to simply watch them fail..? Wow!
Why is it evil? He gave us a choice. We chose evil. Should evil go unpunished?
quote:
But besides all this, you said you had "source material to complement and support all of (your) points". Are you talking about Biblical sources? If so, Sorry for wasting your time.
Do you believe we have a faithful record of the works of Plato?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 5:42:50 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
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quote:
Then surely you would concede there is no evidence for a lack of God, either.
As the poster pointed out, he believes in a God. however, there is TONS of evidence suggesting the God of the bible is not real. For starters, lets look at every single branch of science who independently, using completely different methods, from different part so the world, all at different times, have discovered the earth is not 6k years old like the bible claims, but much older. This is only one small example (even though this is huge, irrefutable evidence for anyone with an open mind).
quote:
T
Your leaps in logic astound me. Why would God force belief in Him on those who do not want it? That's almost as bad as the Spanish Inquisition.
He is not claiming God is forcing anyone. He is simply pointing out irrefutable statistics. If you are born in the Middle East, you have a 95% chance of remaining Muslim your entire life. This is fact. If you don't like statistics, then fine. But math doesn't lie, whether you like it or not. Which means, mathematically, according to Christians, you have a 95% chance of going to hell if you are born in the Middle east. However, if you were lucky enough to be born in America, you have a much greater chance of going to heaven, statistically. Where is the fairness in this? Statically, the number one thing that decides if you will go to heaven or not is where you are born. You can try to argue against this if you want, but the statistic are out there and they are irrefutable.
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Not so. I've heard numerous accounts of others who were brought up in a certain religion from birth, yet went on to change their faith later on in life. If you think a person's fate, in terms of religious beliefs, are determined entirely by birth, I would say you vastly underestimate the human power of reason.
He never said it wasn't possible. He said statistically, if you are born in the middle east, there is VERY little chance you will ever break free from it. You saying its not true defies math. The odds of you growing up in the middle east and ever being anything different are INCREDIBLY remote. To deny this is to deny 100's of years of statistical math gathered by some of the greatest minds in history. In fact, it seems your reading comprehension is poor. He specifically said this is the way for 95% of the people, but then you claim he said its this way for everyone. His math is dead on and your logic is quite silly.
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I guess what I really want to know is, how do you know you "picked" the right path?
Depends on how you mean "know." If you mean, "irrefutably, without any trace of doubt or question," then I would say - I don't. That's where faith comes in. But it is not a blind faith. Everything I've seen and studied, heard and felt, screams that there is Truth, and that I'm on the right path.
Like what? give specific examples of things you've studied and seen that any other reasonable person might be persuaded by.
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Because for most people, there is no actual choice. They are taught from birth one way, and that's usually the way they "believe" from that point on. You can't deny this.
Yes, I can. To deny the possibility of choice is dehumanizing in a horrific way.
and to deny the mathematical statistics is even more horrific. He never said it was impossible, just that the statistics teach us it is very very unlikely. Which obviously is an unfair system. Where you are born can statically give you a 95% chance of going to hell. Where is the justice in this system?
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But I do believe in "God" and this conclusion is based on scientific evidence
Aaah, so you do believe there is evidence out there. I'm curious, why is your evidence acceptable, but Christian evidence is not?
What Christian evidence? Be specific. you notice how in all these threads, people kep saying all this evidence exists, but they never actually tell you what it is? don't you find that odd?
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Do you believe we have a faithful record of the works of Plato?
You're not comparing apples to apples. Comparing historic works containing super natural events, to historic works that don't contain super natural events is not a fair comparison. If Plato's writing would have claimed he did miracles, we wouldn't believe them. Just as we don't believe in Zeus and Horus and all the other historical writings that claim supernatural events. Scholars never accept supernatural writing from ANY source, and to compare the Bible to a non supernatural source and claim we accept one so we should accept the other is intellectual dishonesty at it finest, and worse is an outright attempt to fool and mislead the reader.
< Message edited by 11arrows -- 11/15/2008 6:19:57 PM >
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 6:33:40 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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I admit, on a closer reading, they did not say "all," but they did deny the human capability of choice based on statistics. Mark Twain once said (and I quote in part, since a word-for-word quote would break this board's code of conduct) that there are three kinds of lies - lies, [insert objectionable word here] lies, and statistics. You put a great deal of faith in statistics. Incidentally, I would never say that most people growing up in the middle east will not become Christian. However, I fail to see how that's God's fault. The people in charge of those lands, both present and past, chose to reject God, and the people under them didn't seem to mind. God is letting them have their way.
Now, why is science infallible? Why is human reason infallible? Why is it acceptable to put your faith in such things, but wrong to put faith in a document? A document which, I might add, has such strong textual support that anyone who really believes that what we have available today is significantly different from what the original authors wrote, well, such a person has not done their homework.
quote:
What Christian evidence?
I have had experiences, and heard of experiences first and second hand, of incidents that I cannot attribute to mere chance, without then having confidence in winning the lottery. I would share them, if you like, though I presume you will see blind chance in them.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 6:40:34 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
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quote:
I admit, on a closer reading, they did not say "all," but they did deny the human capability of choice based on statistics. [ /quote]
Really? Could you quote were he said that?
quote:
I have had experiences, and heard of experiences first and second hand, of incidents that I cannot attribute to mere chance, without then having confidence in winning the lottery. I would share them, if you like, though I presume you will see blind chance in them.
I don't think you know what the word evidence means.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 6:50:16 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Really? Could you quote were he said that?
A delight.
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Because for most people, there is no actual choice.
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I don't think you know what the word evidence means.
Please enlighten.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 6:53:24 PM
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internetwraith
Posts: 14
Joined: 11/15/2008
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I was going to respond to one of your previous messages, but I think 11arrows said it nicely. However, regarding your last message:
quote:
The people in charge of those lands, both present and past, chose to reject God, and the people under them didn't seem to mind. God is letting them have their way.
So, they all must suffer because of this? MOST Middle Eastern children grow up surrounded by Islamic religion, and they WILL die believing the same thing. Again, why would God allow this? According to the Bible, they are going to hell.. Though this is no fault of their own. How is this fare?
quote:
Now, why is science infallible? Why is human reason infallible? Why is it acceptable to put your faith in such things, but wrong to put faith in a document?
Because science is factually and historically evident and provable. The bible is not, which is my entire point.
quote:
A document which, I might add, has such strong textual support that anyone who really believes that what we have available today is significantly different from what the original authors wrote, well, such a person has not done their homework.
I still don't see how this makes it true. Maybe you can explain this further? From my point of view, who cares if what we have today is the same as the original text. Prove to me the original text is "truth". This logic is seriously skewed and weird to me.
< Message edited by internetwraith -- 11/15/2008 7:01:44 PM >
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 6:58:19 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
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quote:
Really? Could you quote were he said that?
A delight.
Because for most people, there is no actual choice.
Right, you claimed that he "did deny the human capability of choice based on statistics". however you can see for yourself, he specifically used the word "Most people" which in an of it self means it does not apply to everyone. "Some People" have a choice. Third grade reading comprehension.
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I don't think you know what the word evidence means.
Please enlighten.
Evidence
1 a: an outward sign : indication b: something that furnishes proof : testimony ; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
What you described it called anecdote: : a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 6:58:50 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
So they all must suffer because of this?
Yep. Why is this such a problem? Again, would you prefer a robot who loved you, or a living spouse who chose to? Why should God force us to love Him?
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Because science is factually and historical evident and provable.
Show me an instance where the Bible is historically inaccurate.
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I still don't see how this makes it true. Maybe you can explain this further?
Would you die for something you knew was a lie?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:01:48 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
"Some People" have a choice. Third grade reading comprehension.
Sticks and stones, etc.
I feel you are misreading me. As I said, I am now well aware that they didn't say "all". But they did deny some people's power of choice. To me, this is to dehumanize them beyond excuse. To deny any cognizant human's ability to choose is despicable.
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What you described it called anecdote
No, it wasn't. It was a witnessed evident. Last time I checked, they still allowed witnesses to testify in court.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:09:52 PM
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internetwraith
Posts: 14
Joined: 11/15/2008
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quote:
Yep. Why is this such a problem? Again, would you prefer a robot who loved you, or a living spouse who chose to? Why should God force us to love Him?
I don't think I've made myself clear. These children DO NOT realize they are wrong, just like you do not think you are wrong. Anyone who believes in any religion believes everyone else is wrong, especially those who have no method of researching other belief systems themselves.
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Show me an instance where the Bible is historically inaccurate.
Oh my gosh, do I seriously have to prove to you how inaccurate the Bible is? Seriously? Tell you what, you provide ONE shred of evidence proving the Bible is true? Just ONE is all I'm asking for. If you cant provide ONE thing, then obviously EVERYTHING opposes it's truth.
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Would you die for something you knew was a lie?
Who are you referring to? Biblical characters do not count, because that's our entire argument. Is the Bible true, characters in the Bible included?
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:15:09 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I don't think I've made myself clear. These children DO NOT realize they are wrong, just like you do not think you are wrong.
If someone honestly believed theft wasn't wrong, and they robbed a bank, would that make it all right?
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Tell you what, you provide ONE shred of evidence proving the Bible is true?
There was an inscription found in an archaeological dig that made reference to King David. Does that work?
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If you cant provide ONE thing, then obviously EVERYTHING opposes it's truth.
Your insinuation of idiocy is not appreciated. I have studied the world, and if I felt that everything but the Bible was against the Bible, do you honestly think I'd still ascribe to its message?
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Who are you referring to? Biblical characters do not count, because that's our entire argument. Is the Bible true, characters in the Bible included?
That's fine. I understand your unwillingness to look at the less-than-obvious non-biblical history from that period, just like many Christians are afraid of a typical science textbook.
Look at all the Christians who went to the lions. Some of them were probably first generation Christians - those who were around when Christ was. Why would they die instead of recant?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:24:23 PM
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internetwraith
Posts: 14
Joined: 11/15/2008
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quote:
If someone honestly believed theft wasn't wrong, and they robbed a bank, would that make it all right?
So, they should KNOW what they believe is wrong by default? That makes perfect sense.
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There was an inscription found in an archaeological dig that made reference to King David. Does that work?
Maybe you should research that yourself and tell me is it's proof that the Bible is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Stone_Structure
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That's fine. I understand your unwillingness to look at the less-than-obvious non-biblical history from that period, just like many Christians are afraid of a typical science textbook.
Look at all the Christians who went to the lions. Some of them were probably first generation Christians - those who were around when Christ was. Why would they die instead of recant?
If you're simply asking if people will die for their "Faith", this is a ridiculous question. People blow themselves up still to this day for their beliefs. but does this make them right?
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:28:32 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
So, they should KNOW what they believe is wrong by default? That makes perfect sense.
I already said that they didn't know it was wrong. You're avoiding my question. Does ignorance make something wrong become acceptable?
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Maybe you should research that yourself and tell me is it's proof that the Bible is true.
Do you really think anything about God can be proven, for or against?
Incidentally, the article you quoted wasn't what I was referring to. I'll track it down and let you know.
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If you're simply asking if people will die for their "Faith", this is a ridiculous question. People blow themselves up still to this day for their beliefs. but does this make them right?
People who die for their faith today weren't there at their religion's start. The example I gave was. They witnessed Christ on earth. Now, if they knew He did not preform miracles, that He did not rise from the dead, that He did not ascend into heaven, then why did they choose to die?
And now, I'm off to watch Children of Men with my school's religion department faculty. I look forward to the responses that will await me when I return! : )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:31:16 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Show me an instance where the Bible is historically inaccurate.
ok just one quick one
first, there are clear historical inaccuracies in the New Testament. One such example is that of Acts 5, where Luke writes of the Pharisee Gamaliel's speech (vv. 34-39). This speech would have taken place around AD 35-40, yet it refers to Theudas' revolt of AD 46-47 as a past event. Furthermore, Gamaliel is made to say that "Judas the Galilean" raised a revolt which followed that of Theudas - but Judas' revolt was in AD 6 or 7! We know these dates from Josephus, most notably, as well as from other records.
There are literally dozens that can be found in seconds using a simple google search.
This idea that the bible is historically accurate and contains no contradictions is at odds with the majority of the scholarly world. In fact, to believe this, you must purposely turn a blind eye to writings and research of the some of the greatest scientific minds to ever live. Of course, why believe some of the smartest people to ever live and the mountains of evidence they bring with them. The book says its true so it must be!
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:38:51 PM
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11arrows
Posts: 39
Joined: 11/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
People who die for their faith today weren't there at their religion's start. The example I gave was. They witnessed Christ on earth. Now, if they knew He did not preform miracles, that He did not rise from the dead, that He did not ascend into heaven, then why did they choose to die?
I LOVE this argument. This argument basically says, that people wouldn't die and by martyred for something they know isn't true. Obviously, history tells us time and time again that people will do all sorts of things for no good reason. I mean the Heavens Gate cult members cut off their penises because some old due told them to. They didn't see him do miracles or anything. Yet they believed in him so much that they were willing to cut off their penises and commit suicide. so its obvious people will do crazy things for no good reason.
however, lets say this is true. Lets say the disciples would NEVER have let themselves die for something they knew to be a lie. to prove this theory is correct, you must first show that the disciples were going to be killed, were given the opportunity to be spared if they would only renounce Christ, and chose not to do so.
Can you show me a shred of evidence, from anywhere in history, that this criteria was met? I'll even let you use to bible to meet this criteria. What, you cant do it? There is no record that any of these people were given the opportunity to deny Christ and be spared? Hmm, not a very strong argument then is it?
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 7:45:19 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11455
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 8:00:40 PM
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