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ORIGINAL: manda59

11arrows

Maybe in all the flurry of posts, you didn't see my questions to you?

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ORIGINAL: manda59

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows
I was raised in the Assemblies of God Church in the deep south. I even attended an ACE Christian school as well as several Christian private schools. Not sure what more background you need, but feel free to ask for specifics.

Thanks for giving us this general background info, but I'm more interested in when you actually gave your life to Christ, invited Him in and started to have a relationship with Him. How old were you, did you feel under any pressure, were you encouraged to question etc?

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What archeological evidence that supports the events in the bible? Ive looked. I didn't find any.

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ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider

The evidence is there...don't come on to Christian sites and try to sell that swill u rejected Christ because the evidence is simply not there.

ok, if the evidence is their, what is it? I have read every single book mentioned here, and have independently researched the claims in each of these books. Have You? People stop telling me the evidence is their and I should go find it. I have looked, I didn't find it, so if your so convinced it exists, just tell me, specifically. Don't pawn me off on some author you all really admire. If you really believe the bible is the word of God, you should know ALL about it. You should know every details on why you believe its true and the evidence to back it up. I mean what person in their right mind would believe the bible is truly the word of the one and only god, and then not turn around and learn everything they can about it in detail? It seems like every single person on here has no idea what they are talking about, and instead wishes to pass the buck to Josh McDowell so he can explain it to me.

Look 11 if the writings of McDowell or other Christian apologists cannot convince u then there is little hope i can make a difference. According to scripture, not me, u are dead and blind a vessel of wrath and on and on. Like most unbelievers u despise the God as described in Scripture whereas we as Christians embrace Him. Basically 11 what i will tell u is ur blood is on ur own head. U have a basic understanding of what it is all about and have chose to reject Christ as ur Savior. U or any other person does not reject Christ based on the historical evidence ...it is there ..u reject Christ based on a philosophical assumption. The resurrection of Christ is impossible in the antisupernatural box u have placed urself in. Part of the reason i have such a strong conviction it is all true is because scripture describes folks like u right down to a tee. U certainly did get a lot of responses to ur post. If u dont believe anything else, believe this ...these people here do not wish hell on anyone. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. They care deeply for u even though they do not know who u are or what u are all about. U may despise us and our beliefs but there is little u can do to stop us from caring deeply for u or anyone in our lives here who are, according to scripture, lost. Please forgive me if i came across as harsh. I get frustrated easily at my apparent powerlessness to convince people like u what is so obvious to me. God bless u 11arrows.

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No evidence? I have plenty of evidence. It's subjective and experiential, but it's evidence all the same.

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ORIGINAL: benelchi

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What archeological evidence that supports the events in the bible? Ive looked. I didn't find any.

Wow, Not even the most ardent atheistic scholars will go this far; even the most extreme fringe scholars who reject almost all of the history recorded in the bible would not go this far. I must assume that if you have not found any archeological evidence at all, you either have not looked, or you have chosen to ignore all of the evidence that does exist. If it is the latter, nothing anyone can say on this forum is going to convince you of anything because you have already rejected all of the evidence that even secular archeologists accept.

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ORIGINAL: bravjim

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country from your family and from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation"

Genesis 15: Then He said to Abram, "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them 400 years. And also the nation they will serve I will judge; afterwards, they shall come out with great prosperity. Now, as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Fulfilled through the Exodus, and they reentered that land under Joshua as a great nation.

Deut 6:10-15; 8:18-20; 31:16-18 Each of these predicts that the nation would turn away from God after they enter the land and have built their cities they would turn away from God and chase after the other Gods, which exactly what happened.

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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ORIGINAL: bravjim

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country from your family and from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation"

Genesis 15: Then He said to Abram, "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them 400 years. And also the nation they will serve I will judge; afterwards, they shall come out with great prosperity. Now, as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Fulfilled through the Exodus, and they reentered that land under Joshua as a great nation.

Deut 6:10-15; 8:18-20; 31:16-18 Each of these predicts that the nation would turn away from God after they enter the land and have built their cities they would turn away from God and chase after the other Gods, which exactly what happened.

Ok so the Bible made the prediction, and then the bible is the source you are using to prove it is fulfilled.

so by this logic, if the book Harry Potter made 100 predictions in the first chapter, and then by the last chapter, all those prediction had come true, would that prove Harry Potter was ture? Or would you instinctively know that it got all those predictions right because it's a work of fiction.

Seriously, you don't see the circular logic in believing a book is true simply because it says it is?

This is not evidence. You can not use the bible to prove the bible is true. This is called circular reasoning and is not used by any rational person. In fact, most children understand the flaw in this logic every time they read a book of fiction. It's child logic.

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There are some archeological evidence to suggest that certain towns and places mentioned in the bible did exist. The same can be said of practically EVERY work of fiction ever written. We know for a fact the civil war happened and northern soldiers burned Atlanta, but this does not prove Gone With the Wind is a true story. We know that England exists and they have trains there, just like the book Harry Potter claims. But we also know that a boy wizard named Harry Potter doesn't exist.

Every child knows just because a book of fiction contains real things in it, it does not mean the books supernatural elements are true. We know this because practically every work of fiction ever written is an example of this.

so to say, "well we know the town of Babylon existed, and it mentions Babylon in the bible, so that proves the bible is true", is the exact same logic it would take to say, well we know they have trains in England, just like Harry Potter said, so that proves Harry Potter is real.

Archeological proof that would help a rational person believe would have to deal with evidence that suggests the super natural elements of this book are true. And if there have been such archeological discoveries, stop wasting time and just list them. And if you cant list them, stop pretending they exist.

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ORIGINAL: bravjim
but I am not going to take all the time to pull all of those verses out of the bible and back them up with the facts straight from the history books if you are not going to take the time to prove it is false.

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There are several major fallacies in your reasoning:

1) The works to which you have compared the bible claim to be works of fiction, the bible does not. The credibility of a book that claims to be historical is measured by evidence that supports the historical claims that have been made. And the bible doesn't just mention a few towns and places, it mentions many towns and places across a very wide period of history (far wider period of history than any of the works of fiction you cited), and archeology has confirmed the places, the names, and the history, and culture of almost all of the places mentioned in the bible.

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2) If you are expecting archeology to prove or disprove the supernatural aspects of the bible, you are looking for archeology do something it was never intended to do, nor can it ever do. Archeology allows us to test the objective and measurable claims made in the bible; if they are shown to be accurate, it provides a foundation of trust which we can extend to those things that cannot be proven through science, but must be accepted by faith.

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4) Are you willing to dismiss everything in history we know from Greek, Roman, Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, etc... documents when we cannot find archeological evidence that directly supports the story that has been told in the literature from that time period? By your standard, evidence of accurate place names, cultural conditions, etc... is insufficient to trust the stories told in these documents. By your standard, we must dismiss almost everything we know about world history.

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The claims of Horus and Zeus were not originally meant to be fiction. Yet we dont take them seriously. This argument that its totally different for the bible, because the bible claims its true is the logic of a child. Why does this same logic not apply to the Koran. Or the many many other books who have claimed to be true, listed historically verified places, but we know arent true? It's just very strange logic to believe a book just because it says its true. On top

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Would you like to compare the historical accuracy of the Greek mythological stories or that of the Koran to the stories given in the Bible?

Are you willing to use the same standard for all of the stories given in ancient literature and accept or reject their validity based on the same standard?

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows
I was saved as a child.

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Very early. i spent my entire life in the church, doing plays and participating in the Church youth group. I started question when i reached my thirties. I was never encouraged to question anything while in the Church.

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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No evidence? I have plenty of evidence. It's subjective and experiential, but it's evidence all the same.

Then what is it? How come everyone keeps telling me lots of evidence exists, but no one is willing to specifically list them.

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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There are several major fallacies in your reasoning:

1) The works to which you have compared the bible claim to be works of fiction, the bible does not. The credibility of a book that claims to be historical is measured by evidence that supports the historical claims that have been made. And the bible doesn't just mention a few towns and places, it mentions many towns and places across a very wide period of history (far wider period of history than any of the works of fiction you cited), and archeology has confirmed the places, the names, and the history, and culture of almost all of the places mentioned in the bible.

The claims of Horus and Zeus were not originally meant to be fiction. Yet we don't take them seriously. This argument that its totally different for the bible, because the bible claims its true is the logic of a child. Why does this same logic not apply to the Koran. Or the many many other books who have claimed to be true, listed historically verified places, but we know aren't true? It's just very strange logic to believe a book just because it says its true. On top

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2) If you are expecting archeology to prove or disprove the supernatural aspects of the bible, you are looking for archeology do something it was never intended to do, nor can it ever do. Archeology allows us to test the objective and measurable claims made in the bible; if they are shown to be accurate, it provides a foundation of trust which we can extend to those things that cannot be proven through science, but must be accepted by faith.

I agree with this. I do not believe archeology can prove the Bible. But I'm not the one who keeps saying it does. Your fellow Christians are.

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4) Are you willing to dismiss everything in history we know from Greek, Roman, Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, etc... documents when we cannot find archaeological evidence that directly supports the story that has been told in the literature from that time period? By your standard, evidence of accurate place names, cultural conditions, etc... is insufficient to trust the stories told in these documents. By your standard, we must dismiss almost everything we know about world history.

Right, this things are available in every work of fiction. And they don't prove any work of fiction true. Are you willing to ignore the fact that they've found the cave Muhammad received the Koran in? We know Mohammad existed. we know the cave is there. Lots of people wrote it was true. Why don't you believe it? It's only different in your mind.

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ORIGINAL: manda59

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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No evidence? I have plenty of evidence. It's subjective and experiential, but it's evidence all the same.

Then what is it? How come everyone keeps telling me lots of evidence exists, but no one is willing to specifically list them.

I will:

- a sense of the peace of God, even in the most difficult circumstances
- answered prayer
- guidance in my life
- a sense of God's presence with me

How's that?

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ORIGINAL: bravjim

Narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life, and wide is the road that leads to condemnation.

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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ORIGINAL: manda59

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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No evidence? I have plenty of evidence. It's subjective and experiential, but it's evidence all the same.

Then what is it? How come everyone keeps telling me lots of evidence exists, but no one is willing to specifically list them.

I will:

- a sense of the peace of God, even in the most difficult circumstances
- answered prayer
- guidance in my life
- a sense of God's presence with me

How's that?

Thats not evidence. But you already know that.

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And no, I didnt question before my 30's I felt that even questioning god and the bible was a dangerous slope I dared not step on. After all, the fear of eternal torture is very good at shutting down all questions you have.

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ORIGINAL: 11arrows

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Would you like to compare the historical accuracy of the Greek mythological stories or that of the Koran to the stories given in the Bible?

Are you willing to use the same standard for all of the stories given in ancient literature and accept or reject their validity based on the same standard?

Yes I'm willing to do that. i willing to objectively look at all these stories and give them all the same standard. If by historical acuracy you mean historical proof of super natural events and not just mentions of places and towns which are shared by almost all works of fiction.

Those who believe that if the book says its true it should make it more believable then a book that comes right out and claims its fiction is just asinine to me.